Kansas is too loaded

[DCWildcat]

I'm not getting into the business of who's going to win the national championship this year, but I can say one thing for certain: Taken in a vacuum, Kansas has more talent than anybody this year, with the only possible exception being UNC (I'd still make the case for Kansas, though...UNC next year).

At least 2, and possibly all 3 of their point guards will play in the NBA some day.
Brandon Rush is a guarenteed first round pick at SG. Julian Wright is a guarenteed lottery pick at SF. Between CJ Giles, Darrell Arthur, and Sasha Kaun, at least 2 will play in the NBA, if not all 3.

That's a minimum of one player going to the NBA, at every position, all on the same team in the same year.

When have we last seen that kind of talent?

[keesee12]

96

[Gunsmoke]

We were awesome in '96 and proved it night in and night out on the court. That is sometimes a difficult task to translate paper to hardwood. Dang near impossible.:shock:

[audacious1]

They've already got a verbal from Cole Aldrich, 5-star center, plus they're in the hunt for Derrick Rose, Kyle Singler and Anthony Randolph.

[ukwildcatsks4]

I'm from Kansas, and I say from experience, that Kansas chokes in big, important games.

[Art Vandelay]

How do they recruit so well? Must be the great weather, nearby beaches, and bikini clad coeds!;)

[RCS]

UConn last year was pretty close. They had #1 picks at PG, SF, PF and C. They still have several guys that will get drafted. They still didn't make the FF.

[KY Native in IN]

RCS wrote:
UConn last year was pretty close. They had #1 picks at PG, SF, PF and C.Â* They still have several guys that will get drafted. They still didn't make the FF.

that's a good point, their starting five all looked like they were over 40 years old and were NBA vets...except for the dude with the braids, he looked college age...if anybody LOOKED like they were going to win the NC it would have been UCONN.....looks can be and ARE deceiving....let's keep hope alive for #8!!!!!!!!!!!! GO CATS!!!!!!!!

[SunBaller]

:lol:Art Vandelay wrote: How do they recruit so well? Must be the great weather, nearby beaches, and bikini clad coeds!;)
:lol::lol::lol::lol::thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumb up

[Will Lavender]

Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

[Swimmer4uk]

Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

I second that

[GlobalGuy]

I don't care how much talent Kansas has, until Bill Self shows he can do something with it, then color me unimpressed.

[delkfor3]

Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

I couldn't agree more, and I will add that Bill Self has proven himself to be an overrated coach.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Well, of course, that makes his ability to reel in highly rated recruits even more impressive. BTW, Kansas looked pretty good against us last year.

[Will Lavender]

Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Well, of course, that makes his ability to reel in highly rated recruits even more impressive. BTW, Kansas looked pretty good against us last year.
That's funny logic.

I'd trade that loss for a deeper run in the NCAA Tournament, even if that run is just one game.

The difference between a first round exit and a second round exit is vast. To me, it's like the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8.

I'm not suggesting that a second round loss is anything to hang your hat on, but there's something...depressing about a first round blow-up.

[kevinlw1974]

RCS wrote: UConn last year was pretty close. They had #1 picks at PG, SF, PF and C. They still have several guys that will get drafted. They still didn't make the FF.
I thought Rondo was the first PG taken in the draft. But that is a good point regardless. Great Talent does not always make a great team. Look at some of the USA national teams.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Well, of course, that makes his ability to reel in highly rated recruits even more impressive. BTW, Kansas looked pretty good against us last year.
That's funny logic.

I'd trade that loss for a deeper run in the NCAA Tournament, even if that run is just one game.

The difference between a first round exit and a second round exit is vast. To me, it's like the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8.

I'm not suggesting that a second round loss is anything to hang your hat on, but there's something...depressing about a first round blow-up.

What's funny about the logic? The topic is talent/recruiting, not Bill Self's coaching ability. By any measure, Self has been a good recruiter. The fact that he recruits so well without any great success in the tournament makes his recruiting effort even more impressive.

Moreover, our second round loss last year spoke volumes about where our progam is right now. Specifically, I never thought I would see the day Kentucky basketball fans would crow about a moral victory the way many did after we played UConn close. We should be among the favorites to win it all MOST years. Already this preseason we're debating whether we can work our way into being a top 20 team. Now that's depressing.

[Will Lavender]

Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Well, of course, that makes his ability to reel in highly rated recruits even more impressive. BTW, Kansas looked pretty good against us last year.
That's funny logic.

I'd trade that loss for a deeper run in the NCAA Tournament, even if that run is just one game.

The difference between a first round exit and a second round exit is vast. To me, it's like the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8.

I'm not suggesting that a second round loss is anything to hang your hat on, but there's something...depressing about a first round blow-up.

What's funny about the logic? The topic is talent/recruiting, not Bill Self's coaching ability. By any measure, Self has been a good recruiter. The fact that he recruits so well without any great success in the tournament makes his recruiting effort even more impressive.

Moreover, our second round loss last year spoke volumes about where our progam is right now. Specifically, I never thought I would see the day Kentucky basketball fans would crow about a moral victory the way many did after we played UConn close. We should be among the favorites to win it all MOST years. Already this preseason we're debating whether we can work our way into being a top 20 team. Now that's depressing.


The topic is about recruiting, but recruiting means nothing if you can't win big games.

I guarantee Tubby Smith would be raked over the coals even more than he already is if he lost two years in a row in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Because Bill Self does it that's okay because the man can (presumably) recruit? Like I said: that logic, to me anyway, is strange.

[poodoo]

The topic is about recruiting, but recruiting means nothing if you can't win big games.

I guarantee Tubby Smith would be raked over the coals even more than he already is if he lost two years in a row in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Because Bill Self does it that's okay because the man can (presumably) recruit? QUOTE by Will Lavender

___________

FWIW, I, too, guarantee that Tubby would be "raked over the coals even more than he already has if he lost two years in a row in the first round of the NCAA Tournament." Too, doing so WITH the talent would be an even worse offense, at least as I see it.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Well, of course, that makes his ability to reel in highly rated recruits even more impressive. BTW, Kansas looked pretty good against us last year.
That's funny logic.

I'd trade that loss for a deeper run in the NCAA Tournament, even if that run is just one game.

The difference between a first round exit and a second round exit is vast. To me, it's like the difference between a Final Four and an Elite 8.

I'm not suggesting that a second round loss is anything to hang your hat on, but there's something...depressing about a first round blow-up.

What's funny about the logic? The topic is talent/recruiting, not Bill Self's coaching ability. By any measure, Self has been a good recruiter. The fact that he recruits so well without any great success in the tournament makes his recruiting effort even more impressive.

Moreover, our second round loss last year spoke volumes about where our progam is right now. Specifically, I never thought I would see the day Kentucky basketball fans would crow about a moral victory the way many did after we played UConn close. We should be among the favorites to win it all MOST years. Already this preseason we're debating whether we can work our way into being a top 20 team. Now that's depressing.


The topic is about recruiting, but recruiting means nothing if you can't win big games.

I guarantee Tubby Smith would be raked over the coals even more than he already is if he lost two years in a row in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Because Bill Self does it that's okay because the man can (presumably) recruit? Like I said: that logic, to me anyway, is strange.

I agree, recruiting means nothing if you can't win big games. I also agree that Tubby would be raked over the coals if he lost two consecutive first round tournament games.

Hopefully, you'll agree with me that Bill Self would also be raked over the coals if he did that at UK? I'd be willing to bet that Self has his critics at KU. Nevertheless, Self has assembled the type of talent necessary to be ranked in the top ten and to be in consideration for making a run at the final four. I wish I could say the same for UK.

[jdeasy]

Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Self took Tulsa to the Elite 8. Something no other coach has done there.

[Will Lavender]

jd&ez wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Self took Tulsa to the Elite 8. Something no other coach has done there.
True.

No doubt the man can coach, he's just not shown he can coach in big games at Kansas.

And still: what would the reaction be if Tubby Smith got beat two years in a row in the NCAA Tournament?

I doubt many would be bringing up Tubby's record at Georgia or Tulsa as a defense of Smith if that happened.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: jd&ez wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Self took Tulsa to the Elite 8. Something no other coach has done there.
True.

No doubt the man can coach, he's just not shown he can coach in big games at Kansas.

And still: what would the reaction be if Tubby Smith got beat two years in a row in the NCAA Tournament?

I doubt many would be bringing up Tubby's record at Georgia or Tulsa as a defense of Smith if that happened.

Tubby's record at UK is comparable to what he did at Tulsa and UGA, it's just easier at Kentucky. Tubby merely makes it look hard.

You seem to think there's something special about Tubby - that any other Kentucky coach would be given a pass for losing in the tournament.I've been around long enough to know that every coach from Coach Rupp to the present have been criticized for losing games at various times in their careers. The only thing special about Tubby is that he has managed to lose more than 10 gamesfive out his ten seasons and he'sset a new mark for most years without a trip to the final four. Moreover, he can't seem to recruit any power forwards. Throw in that he's lost control of at least two of his teams and he apparently decided to just take last season off.

With that said, why did youfeel it necessary to bring Tubby into this discussion?

[Will Lavender]

Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: jd&ez wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Self took Tulsa to the Elite 8. Something no other coach has done there.
True.

No doubt the man can coach, he's just not shown he can coach in big games at Kansas.

And still: what would the reaction be if Tubby Smith got beat two years in a row in the NCAA Tournament?

I doubt many would be bringing up Tubby's record at Georgia or Tulsa as a defense of Smith if that happened.

Tubby's record at UK is comparable to what he did at Tulsa and UGA, it's just easier at Kentucky. Tubby merely makes it look hard.

You seem to think there's something special about Tubby - that any other Kentucky coach would be given a pass for losing in the tournament.I've been around long enough to know that every coach from Coach Rupp to the present have been criticized for losing games at various times in their careers. The only thing special about Tubby is that he has managed to lose more than 10 gamesfive out his ten seasons and he'sset a new mark for most years without a trip to the final four. Moreover, he can't seem to recruit any power forwards. Throw in that he's lost control of at least two of his teams and he apparently decided to just take last season off.

With that said, why did youfeel it necessary to bring Tubby into this discussion?


You knew it was going to get back to Tubby at some point. You mentioned the Kansas game last year, and so I assumed that was a passive-aggressive dig at Tubby.

And clearly the Tulsa comment was a roundabout reference to Tubby.

I'm just making the point that we seem to praise other coaches for things and forgive their faults, while often we blast Smith for all his warts and pass over the good things he's done.

Double Standard City, baby. It's always been that way with Tubby.

[DCWildcat]

The only thing special about Tubby is that he has managed to lose more than 10 games five out his ten seasons and he's set a new mark for most years without a trip to the final four.

Yep, that's all that's special about him. Never done anything special in his whole tenure. Then again, all Jefferson did was bang slaves.

[DCWildcat]

Was Self coaching Kansas when they played Syracuse in '04? I can't remember.

[Prince21]

No they were still under Roy Williams that year. He was asked about the North Carolina job after the game and dropped a no-no on national television. Gotta love it.

[DCWildcat]

Prince21 wrote: No they were still under Roy Williams that year. He was asked about the North Carolina job after the game and dropped a no-no on national television. Gotta love it.


Oh, that was the, "I don't give a **** about the Carolina job" line? I was actually really happy he said that. Even if he did accept the job two weeks later, he had his priorities in the right place at the right time.

[bluegrassking]

Will Lavender wrote: Art Vandelay wrote: Will Lavender wrote: jd&ez wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Until Kansas can get out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament, I'll remain unimpressed with Self and his recruiting.

Self took Tulsa to the Elite 8. Something no other coach has done there.
True.

No doubt the man can coach, he's just not shown he can coach in big games at Kansas.

And still: what would the reaction be if Tubby Smith got beat two years in a row in the NCAA Tournament?

I doubt many would be bringing up Tubby's record at Georgia or Tulsa as a defense of Smith if that happened.

Tubby's record at UK is comparable to what he did at Tulsa and UGA, it's just easier at Kentucky. Tubby merely makes it look hard.

You seem to think there's something special about Tubby - that any other Kentucky coach would be given a pass for losing in the tournament.I've been around long enough to know that every coach from Coach Rupp to the present have been criticized for losing games at various times in their careers. The only thing special about Tubby is that he has managed to lose more than 10 gamesfive out his ten seasons and he'sset a new mark for most years without a trip to the final four. Moreover, he can't seem to recruit any power forwards. Throw in that he's lost control of at least two of his teams and he apparently decided to just take last season off.

With that said, why did youfeel it necessary to bring Tubby into this discussion?


You knew it was going to get back to Tubby at some point. You mentioned the Kansas game last year, and so I assumed that was a passive-aggressive dig at Tubby.

And clearly the Tulsa comment was a roundabout reference to Tubby.

I'm just making the point that we seem to praise other coaches for things and forgive their faults, while often we blast Smith for all his warts and pass over the good things he's done.

Double Standard City, baby. It's always been that way with Tubby.


It is not a double standard. Clearly, Tubby got a lot of credit for what he did at Tulsa and UGA, that's how he got the catbird seat. It is his work since that raises the warning flags.

The UK job is a platform like no other to have success, even when compared to programs of the stature of an IU or even Kansas. The poster correctly pointed out that Self appears to be a fine recruiter and improved on Smith's work at Tulsa. However, like Tubby what he did to be succesfull at Tulsa may not translate so will to the big stage. Like a good show on TV may not translate well to the silver screen, it may be the same issue with both these coaches. The stage may be too big, I don't know but fans of both powerhouses have reason for concern.

Self, however has been at KU only about half the time Tubby has been here, has no title to rest on, and like it was said, it appears he is doing a good job of bringing in the type of players that can make a coach great if he can harness their skills maybe he can get it done. I don't think Smith's X's and O's are so strong he can win without a high level of talent that fits his system.

The talent leveldoes not gurantee a title but I would love to see a coherant argument that it isn't a huge factor. Wooden won about as many as Rupp, Knight, and Dean Smith together and he says it's about the talent, I have a hard time doubting him on this one.

I'd say you should be trying to build 96 caliber teams EACH AND EVERY YEAR. Of course you fall short probably 49/50 times or so but the mindset that it is impossible should simply be vanquished forever. Goals should stretch us instead of being "obtainable". We should damn well be able to sign a "pretty good class" every year, we have made this our goal and now we are coming up short of this meagre benchmark. We should be aiming for the sky, so that when we fall short it's still actually "pretty good".

[trublue4life]

Art Vandelay wrote:
With that said, why did youfeel it necessary to bring Tubby into this discussion?


Please! Don't insult our intelligence. Your very first post in this whole discussion was a backhanded dig at Tubby for what you perceive to be his failure as a coach and recruiter. Why don't you just start your own dedicated thread, or better yet your own board, of 100 Reasons Tubby Is a Failureand anybody that actually cares to read your same old sad song over & over & over can just click on it anytime. But don't come on here and act like you weren't the one who started this debate by bringing Tubby into a discussion about Kansas' talent.:rolleyes: