We have great fans, this is a great program and they expect greatness out of the program.

[blueheretic]

The Fire Coker movement has never been stronger in South Florida, yet the man at the storm's epicenter insists he's not bothered.
No, Larry Coker certainly understands a 1-2 record is unacceptable at Miami -- and Sunday, he said it causes him more anguish than any sports-radio caller or Web-site poster could possibly understand.


http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=KkTwEtG_ew63Zjg1Q86BJRDpSoKSU0UOPXIABPco&T=140 i4n11k%2fX%3d1158561138%2fE%3d95862243%2fR%3dsport s%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d4192 296532%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dD27BBFD1&U=13am236ef%2fN%3dMpkOAES OxI0-%2fC%3d543170.9043712.10018579.2378211%2fD%3dLREC% 2fB%3d3970860"I've been in high-profile programs before at Oklahoma and Ohio State, so I understand it," Coker said. "And I understand the frustration of our fans. We have great fans, this is a great program and they expect greatness out of the program. Believe me, nobody wants to win more than I do."



This is what is missing from the UKAA. Coker admits that he needs to get it together and bring the program back to greatness. Tubby and company call UK fans names and say that we are crazy and such for expecting greatness. UK fans get blamed for the failures of Tubby and the UKAA to build and maintain Championship momentum.

This is the attitude that Tubby and the UKAA should take.

[ukbob]

A little homework perhaps....

Mitch Barnhart : There have been numerous questions submitted regarding the basketball program. At most programs, 22 wins is a wonderful season. Our standards at Kentucky are much different than that. And no one wants to guard the wonderful tradition of Wildcat basketball more than Tubby Smith. There is much written, talked and rumored about this basketball program. It has always been that way and will continue to be that way. Tubby Smith knows what it takes to win championships at Kentucky and we are all fully committed, from adminstration to coaches, to ensuring that happens.

So you really don't think Barnhart or OTS thinks they need to win more?

Maybe I missed it but when did Smith call you names? Or are you just hallucinating? So he criticizes a group of hard core idiots...hell, who doesn't?You constantly belittle anyone supporting Smith while others belittle anyone not supporting him. Maybe he is just jumping into the fray.

Tubby Smith has a lot to catch up on. Barnhart has criticized his lack of media exposure and wants to see improvement there, his recruiting woes are very well documented so that needs to pick up and his lack of team management skills has probably cost us more games than it should. However, I cannot believe Smith does not think that the program needs to get back to where it once was. When I hear him say all is OK, then I will believe it he doesn't care.

And this constant belief that UK fans are getting blamed for the "failures" of the program is nothing more than BS. NOBODY has said it...NOBODY. Fans contribute to the program in good ways and bad ways. One can help and one can possibly hurt. But neither can be the main reason for success or failure. And NOBODY has claimed it except in your world, I guess. Stupid argument that has gotten totally turned around to meet people's criteria. :thumbdown

I have no idea if Smith will right things. Neither do you. And I have to admit there are times where I don't even care because I think the fracturedbase of fans cannot be brought back without a new coach. However, I refuse to believe that Smith or BArnhart are totally blind to the prblems and challenges that exist. If you think so, then perhaps you need to contact them and fill them in.

[ukwebfan]

Out of touch with reality are we?:rolleyes:

[Bird]

Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does? This is the man's job and passion. Day in and day out his main concern at work is making the program the best in the nation. Now, that doesn't always translate into a better program, but it would be hard for me to believe that anyone of us in the commonwealth and around the nation care more about the team and the program than Tubby. At the same time though, I am tired of the local and national media (lord, why isit thateverytimeDicky V does a Kentucky game he feels thatit is hisposition to tell UK fans to quit complaining)demonizingUK fans that aren't happy with the state of the program and tubby.Its like complaining about the President, its our right andour responsibility to voice our expectations, our gratitude, and our complaints. I'd rather have people calling for a change than have people not care at all.

[VIIBanners]

Bird wrote: Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does? This is the man's job and passion. Day in and day out his main concern at work is making the program the best in the nation. Now, that doesn't always translate into a better program, but it would be hard for me to believe that anyone of us in the commonwealth and around the nation care more about the team and the program than Tubby. At the same time though, I am tired of the local and national media (lord, why isit thateverytimeDicky V does a Kentucky game he feels thatit is hisposition to tell UK fans to quit complaining)demonizingUK fans that aren't happy with the state of the program and tubby.Its like complaining about the President, its our right andour responsibility to voice our expectations, our gratitude, and our complaints. I'd rather have people calling for a change than have people not care at all. Well said.

[blueheretic]

The record is out there. Tubby has said things with implications that are not good. Instead of saying "there's a lot of crap on the internet," why not say something along the lines of what Coker said. Taht should be their mantra. Why even risk the alienaiton.

I don't get it.

Polarization of the fans. I talk to people who think Tubby is awesome and I talk to people who think that Tubby should have been fired. I'm friends with people who sit all across the spectrum.

With Tubby or without Tubby, we are still fans of the program and we are still friends. The whole "the fanbase is polarized" argument is nonsense. Utter nonsense. Melodrama.

Many on this site attempt to place blame on the fans for all manner of offenses. I would put names here but someonewill be offended. Especially on the recruiting front.

You guys whine when I get sarcastic. Yet you pop off and do the exact same thing with your silly reality comments. That whole one finger pointed at another leaves three pointing back saying comes to mind.

Any time Smith pops off with his negative comments about the fanbase, he is talking about us.

If only people could be real...

[UKfaninCO]

blueheretic wrote: The record is out there. Tubby has said things with implications that are not good. Instead of saying "there's a lot of crap on the internet," why not say something along the lines of what Coker said. Taht should be their mantra. Why even risk the alienaiton.

I don't get it.

Polarization of the fans. I talk to people who think Tubby is awesome and I talk to people who think that Tubby should have been fired. I'm friends with people who sit all across the spectrum.

With Tubby or without Tubby, we are still fans of the program and we are still friends. The whole "the fanbase is polarized" argument is nonsense. Utter nonsense. Melodrama.

Many on this site attempt to place blame on the fans for all manner of offenses. I would put names here but someonewill be offended. Especially on the recruiting front.

You guys whine when I get sarcastic. Yet you pop off and do the exact same thing with your silly reality comments. That whole one finger pointed at another leaves three pointing back saying comes to mind.

Any time Smith pops off with his negative comments about the fanbase, he is talking about us.

If only people could be real...


So what are you trying to accomplish? I'm not arguing with you, just curious. Most of the people that have the "polarized" view will continue to have it, despite your attempts to "wake them up to reality". Reality is in the eyes of the beholder more often than not. We as fans don't necessarily agree on the husbandry of the program.

Is Tubby doing a good job? Ask that question to 10 fans and you'll likely get a mixture of yes and no answers from the same fans. So 10 yes's and no's. Most of us think that Tubby is an excellent on the court coach, and a fine person. Most of us also note that while the above is true, his recent performance in the recruiting and player management areas of his job have been less than stellar. Where we, I think, disagree mostly in whether Tubby is the man to fix the problem. I think a good portion, I won't use majority since I don't know that, think he has at least earned the opportunity to attempt to fix it. Others of us believe he needs to be removed, citing his lack of post-season success(no final fours since 98). And for the most part we all have the best interests of the program at heart. (There are some exceptions to this that I won't go into.)

In my opinion, Tubby and Mitch both know that we need better results than we got last season. And it's not the number of losses that bothered me so much as the way we lost. The big losses to Kansas and IU are unconscionable. Iowa? Please. And 2 times to VANDY? OMG! A UK team should always be in a position to win any game. They may not and probably won't win them all, but they should always be good competition. Only one thing really cures the ills thisprogram is going through, and that is winning. Will the fan sniping of Tubby Smith go away, unlikely, but it will fade. All he has to do is win.

Just FYI, it is sometimes tough to read sarcasm over the internet. I can sometimes get that you are being sarcastic, other times not. *shrug* But that's just me.

[blueheretic]

Not really trying to accomplish anything.

The real comment is about people who post one way and then whine and moan about people who post "negatively" but turn around and say worse things behind closed doors. It's more about being a genuine person as opposed to being fake. Some people don't have the courage to say what they really mean. At least not to your face. It's an odd thing.

[blueheretic]

ukwebfan wrote: Out of touch with reality are we?:rolleyes:

We seem to be...:rolleyes:

[Will Lavender]

blueheretic wrote: The Fire Coker movement has never been stronger in South Florida, yet the man at the storm's epicenter insists he's not bothered.
No, Larry Coker certainly understands a 1-2 record is unacceptable at Miami -- and Sunday, he said it causes him more anguish than any sports-radio caller or Web-site poster could possibly understand.


http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=KkTwEtG_ew63Zjg1Q86BJRDpSoKSU0UOPXIABPco&T=140 i4n11k%2fX%3d1158561138%2fE%3d95862243%2fR%3dsport s%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d4192 296532%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dD27BBFD1&U=13am236ef%2fN%3dMpkOAES OxI0-%2fC%3d543170.9043712.10018579.2378211%2fD%3dLREC% 2fB%3d3970860"I've been in high-profile programs before at Oklahoma and Ohio State, so I understand it," Coker said. "And I understand the frustration of our fans. We have great fans, this is a great program and they expect greatness out of the program. Believe me, nobody wants to win more than I do."



This is what is missing from the UKAA. Coker admits that he needs to get it together and bring the program back to greatness. Tubby and company call UK fans names and say that we are crazy and such for expecting greatness. UK fans get blamed for the failures of Tubby and the UKAA to build and maintain Championship momentum.

This is the attitude that Tubby and the UKAA should take.

I think Tubby has taken that attitude.

On his last BBL, Tubby said that what we went through last year was unacceptable from the top down. I know he said that because I heard it.

[poodoo]

I think Tubby has taken that attitude.

On his last BBL, Tubby said that what we went through last year was unacceptable from the top down. I know he said that because I heard it. QUOTE by Will Lavender

__________

While I had agreed with a couple of points you made on a recruiting thread a few minutes ago, Dave, I certainly cannot do so here. I have so often heard Tubby say things like he said here (including what Will just shared). I have also heard Tubby say that no one realizes more than he does that UK MUST get back to a Final Four soon. Ukbob has quoted Mitch Barnhart, a quote which I had read shortly after Barnhart said those words. I honestly do not "get" this post. :(

I also wonderwhich folksare saying different things behind closed doors than what they say here.I know I said exactly the same things at Saturday's tailgate that I say here. I am sincere all the way through. Who are THESE PEOPLE to which you refer? I honestly don't know. :(

I do NOT see Tubby as a saint. As I said at the tailgate, I agree with you that his niceness can hurt him sometimes (specifically in recruiting and perhaps in regard to being too reluctant to get rid of an assistant who migh not be performing quite as well as he needs to--although I did not mention that to you at the tailgate). I think SOME criticisms of Tubby from fansare fair, as I shared in arecent post.I also think many of them are too extreme and unfair and just part of playing that old Blame Game I so dislike.

Regardless, for the record, I will say the same here and behind closed doors. I will try to respect differing opinions and try to be nice, both here and behind closed doors. I won't say anything here or behind closeddoors that I don't believe. Ieasily like people and canenjoy talking with them and listening to what they say, regardless of whether I agree or disagree.More importanta, there are quite a few other WCN members I know who do exactly the same. I'm wondering if you consider folks' really listening to you and admitting when you make some good points as folks' not being sincere here. I honestly don't know. Again, I'm wondering who THESE PEOPLE are. :D



Most of all, I still believe Tubby is a great coach, although not a perfect coach, and I am absolutely NOT ready for Tubby Smith toleave UK. I believe he had a subpar, disappointingperformance last year and must improve this season. There are a few things I would change about Tubby, to make him that PERFECT coach in my eyes, all of which I have mentioned on this forum and the recruiting forum. Most of all, I absolutely do NOT agreewith theaccusations made against Tubby and the UKAAin the original post, for I have heardjust the oppositefrom both MitchBarnhart and Tubby Smith themselves. In regard to the Internet, I read ALL of the SEC coaches' responses to the question directed to them about the Internet's influence, and all of them basically said the same. Go figure. No, TubbySmith does NOT blame UK fans for any lack of success in the basketball program. If Tubby Smith did not see a problem for UK recruiting in folkslike Mr. Cheeks and his "ad," he would not have the sense to be our basketballcoach, in my most humble opinion. :)

No one, including me, has seemed to agree with you on what you have said on this particular thread (although I'm sure there are a few out there who do), Dave. I believe you believe what you are saying. I see no real evidence to back up your pointshere.:(

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

Your post is undisputable proof that there is alot of "crap on the internet".

You wrote later:

'Any time Smith pops off with his negative comments about the fanbase, he is talking about us.'

Wrong. He's certainly not talking about me. He is talking about people like you and your incessant whining about everything remotely close to the organization. Whether it's the last play against LSU or recruiting, people like you have to come on here and cry about everything.

Yeah, Tubby owes you so much.

I say he has every right to say what he feels about your type and I applaud him for it. He knows what he's done here. He knows what's his fault and what isn't. Believe it or not you can't pin every bad thing that's happened to UK ball on him.

But that's the EASYway out, so you take it.

[Ralph Cramden]

There is much more parity in College Basketball now than 10+ years ago. It doesn't matter what name is on the jersey......no one dominates now. IMO, this trend will continue and I like the competition.

[bigsky]

"Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.

[SunBaller]

Ralph Cramden wrote: There is much more parity in College Basketball now than 10+ years ago. It doesn't matter what name is on the jersey......no one dominates now. IMO, this trend will continue and I like the competition.
Poor, negative attitude. Tubby's cousin.

[SamKat]

Wanting UK to win isn't just a matter of pay. The UK fan base pay through the nose to follow and watch the Cats! That is why I am with Blue Heretic and Big Sky on this thread which has veared away from Dave's intention. It is a simple and majestic thing- the LUV of Kentucky Basketball we fans have. Paying somebody won't get it! It has to come in through the heart and soul of the person.

Dave definitely has it and most of these WCN posters understand the passion.

Go Cats!

Go Tubby!

[Spanish Moss]

SamKat wrote: Wanting UK to win isn't just a matter of pay. The UK fan base pay through the nose to follow and watch the Cats! That is why I am with Blue Heretic and Big Sky on this thread which has veared away from Dave's intention. It is a simple and majestic thing- the LUV of Kentucky Basketball we fans have. Paying somebody won't get it! It has to come in through the heart and soul of the person.

Dave definitely has it and most of these WCN posters understand the passion.

Go Cats!

Go Tubby!

Nice post Sam. Dave and Big Sky certainly reflect my feelings as well. You put it well, it must come through the heart and soul of the person.

[delkfor3]

Will Lavender wrote:

I think Tubby has taken that attitude.

On his last BBL, Tubby said that what we went through last year was unacceptable from the top down. I know he said that because I heard it.

Yeah and he also said the same thing after that disaster that was the 2002 season(it seemed in the 03' season, that Tubby had things going in the right direction), and yet here we are again. This isn't the first time that we have hadthis type of season under Tubby Smith.Tubby is going to have to start backing up his words with action. I'm not bashing the guy, butI wanna see some results, rather than talk.

[ukbob]

bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



Absolutely correct, IMO.

Of course he doesn't feel the same as you and I and countless other fans. He may love UK but it is a job first and foremost to him. Do you really think Pitino or Sutton felt as as strongly about UK as the fans? Joe Hall may have been the last one to feel the passion to a degree and he still does. You think Donovan or the next hire will feel the same as the fans?

And quite frankly, nobody cared how Pitino felt as long as we were going to Final Fours. Nobody cared how Hall felt when he was winning it all, but they sure let him know when that declined. And they wouldn't care about Smith's feelings on UK if he was getting us to the top on a more regular basis. It is all about the wins....or at least enough wins to get us to Final Fours.

[RaleighCat]

ukbob wrote: bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



Absolutely correct, IMO.

Of course he doesn't feel the same as you and I and countless other fans. He may love UK but it is a job first and foremost to him. Do you really think Pitino or Sutton felt as as strongly about UK as the fans? Joe Hall may have been the last one to feel the passion to a degree and he still does. You think Donovan or the next hire will feel the same as the fans?

And quite frankly, nobody cared how Pitino felt as long as we were going to Final Fours. Nobody cared how Hall felt when he was winning it all, but they sure let him know when that declined. And they wouldn't care about Smith's feelings on UK if he was getting us to the top on a more regular basis. It is all about the wins....or at least enough wins to get us to Final Fours.

Bravo to both of you!

[Will Lavender]

bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



It's an interesting point, and it certanly says a lot about you. But I don't think it says very much about Tubby Smith.

You care. We all care. Deeply. But that doesn't mean that Tubby cares less -- I'd say he just cares differently.

And I doubt it's just about the money he gets paid. I heard an interview with Tubby and Tom Leach once where Tubby said he'd been down in the Memorial basement watching game tape from the Rupp days. I think he understands the history of the program as well as anyone, even if he doesn't feel it as deeply as we do.

And also, it's not like Tubby Smith just showed up in Lexington when Rick Pitino left. His first big-time job was as an assistant at the University of Kentucky.

[Chunks06]

Attack the post - not the poster - thanks - Dan

[Chunks06]

bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



This argument can sway either way. DO you care more than me just because I havent been alive for five decades or my family arent Uk fans?? Thats a flawed argument. Im not arguing that Tubby cares more because I dont know but just because you have cheered longer doesnt mean you care more. And again, just because the man gets paid and you dont that means you care more? Thats another bad argument that means nothing. The man getting paid 2 million a year simply means he knows more about the game than you and has to deal with Uk basketball 24 hours a day, all year round. You, meanwhile, have the ability to jump on a message board every now and then and watch a couple of games a weak during a 4-5 month season. Good luck

[Chunks06]

ukbob wrote: bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



Absolutely correct, IMO.

Of course he doesn't feel the same as you and I and countless other fans. He may love UK but it is a job first and foremost to him. Do you really think Pitino or Sutton felt as as strongly about UK as the fans? Joe Hall may have been the last one to feel the passion to a degree and he still does. You think Donovan or the next hire will feel the same as the fans?

And quite frankly, nobody cared how Pitino felt as long as we were going to Final Fours. Nobody cared how Hall felt when he was winning it all, but they sure let him know when that declined. And they wouldn't care about Smith's feelings on UK if he was getting us to the top on a more regular basis. It is all about the wins....or at least enough wins to get us to Final Fours.

Bob, I usually agree with everything you say but this argument cannot be made as fact. The only fact we have is that you cant measure this passion and we have no idea how he feels in his heart. Again, I am not arguing he is more passionate than us fans but just because he gets paid and just because he has been at other schools does not mean he is less passionate.

[ukbob]

Chunks06 wrote: ukbob wrote: bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.



Absolutely correct, IMO.

Of course he doesn't feel the same as you and I and countless other fans. He may love UK but it is a job first and foremost to him. Do you really think Pitino or Sutton felt as as strongly about UK as the fans? Joe Hall may have been the last one to feel the passion to a degree and he still does. You think Donovan or the next hire will feel the same as the fans?

And quite frankly, nobody cared how Pitino felt as long as we were going to Final Fours. Nobody cared how Hall felt when he was winning it all, but they sure let him know when that declined. And they wouldn't care about Smith's feelings on UK if he was getting us to the top on a more regular basis. It is all about the wins....or at least enough wins to get us to Final Fours.

Bob, I usually agree with everything you say but this argument cannot be made as fact. The only fact we have is that you cant measure this passion and we have no idea how he feels in his heart. Again, I am not arguing he is more passionate than us fans but just because he gets paid and just because he has been at other schools does not mean he is less passionate.
I think Will said it best when he stated that Tubby cares very much but possibly in a different way than us. And I don't see that as wrong or unusual necessarily. I doubt he would be coaching here for free, nor would any of us regardless of our passion.

His level of caring is not the point. I feel strongly that he DOES care. He cares about the university and has shown that in his speech and his efforts on and off the court with coaching and charity works. He certainly cares about his craft. No matter what anyone here thinks of Tubby, he is a professional and does have pride. However, his investment has not been as long as mine or many others and at the end of the day, he could go elsewhere and make tons of bucks....just like Pitino did. As a fan, I could not go root for another team because it is not in my makeup and this is not a business to me.

But my point is that if Smith had gone to 1 or 2 more Final Fours or won another title, this thread would never have been started (hopefully)and nobody out there would give a rat's butt how much he cared about anything. It is all about the wins and Final Fours, it seems.

[bigsky]

And, say, how would John Pelphrey feel about UK basketball? Travis Ford? Kyle Macy?

Does Coach K's feeling for Duke basketball match the fans? Abso-freakin-lutely.

And Dean Smith? And Coach Wooden? Hank Iba?

Yes, there IS a difference.

[Will Lavender]

bigsky wrote: And, say, how would John Pelphrey feel about UK basketball? Travis Ford? Kyle Macy?

Does Coach K's feeling for Duke basketball match the fans? Abso-freakin-lutely.

And Dean Smith? And Coach Wooden? Hank Iba?

Yes, there IS a difference.

You may be right. As I said above, I think it's a really interesting point.

But there have been plenty of coaches who have won, won big, at schools they had no previous connection to.

I know you like Bob Knight. Knight did his most impressive work when he was fairly young, and as far as I know he had no prior history at Indiana University. He was just a gifted motivator and coach.

And there probably would be a different "feeling" from Pelphrey and Ford toward the university and its tradition.

But that doesn't mean that they would win. (And I don't think that's necessarily what you're trying to say.)

Coaching is like playing, in my opinion: it takes talent. Heart, desire, drive: those are important, probably, but they never trump God-given ability.

[ukbob]

bigsky wrote: And, say, how would John Pelphrey feel about UK basketball? Travis Ford? Kyle Macy?

Does Coach K's feeling for Duke basketball match the fans? Abso-freakin-lutely.

And Dean Smith? And Coach Wooden? Hank Iba?

Yes, there IS a difference.


Good point, but let's ask each of those guys 8 years into their tenure. (Which we cannot) Did they feel the same then or 20 years later into their tenure? No way to know for sure. And those guys, including K, are a dying breed anymore(sadly). Coaching is a business in my mind where loyalty is a good talking point but the other factors like money, stress and opportunityfor the brass ring are paramount. Rick Pitino taught me that. Even K considered (albeit briefly) a stint in the NBA at one time.

Tubby may move on soon (which will make some pretty happy I suppose). If he does, would we then question his loyalty with anger, be sad for the loss, or cheer his departure and praise theacquisition of a new hired gun? Probably a little ofeach I suspect.

As for Pelphrey, Macy or Ford...sure. They played here and shared great success here. 2 of them are from Kentucky andthey wereborn into the tradition.But then again, none of them are good enough to coach here at this time.

[bigsky]

Roy Williams, too.

[Will Lavender]

Jim Boeheim, I believe, went to Syracuse.

I mention that because I was just in New York City. There was a guy that attended this conference from Syracuse. Big SU fan. I mentioned to him that I really liked Boeheim. I think he's a good coach, and I especially like his sense of humor. He gives Digger Phelps hell when he's on ESPN.

The guy said, "You all must like him a lot more than we do. Everybody up in Syracuse is tired of his whiny voice."

Fans tend to eat their own.

[poodoo]

Any time Smith pops off with his negative comments about the fanbase, he is talking about us. QUOTE by blueheretic

__________

I said that I did not agree with Dave's point on the thread.I still do not agree with what I had THOUGHT Dave was saying and feeling, but I do agree with a lot of the responses here.IADMIRE Dave's passion for the program (and I have often reminded fans that Dave WANTSTubby Smith to be successful here).I admire the passion many of you have expressed. I think I have the same passion for the program. I honestly cannot imagine anyone'shaving more. :)Too, IF I were convinced that another coachwould be performing better here, I would bein favor of Tubby's wanting to move on.

Yet, I am FAR from convinced of that, although I do have some concerns, many of which I have expressed.So my passion for the program causesme to post a bit differently than others. :)

Most of the responses (many of which I agreed with) were not addressing what I had thought had been Dave's point. I felt that Dave was wanting Tubby to say something similarly to what Coker said, and I have HEARD Tubby Smith say some of the same things. With my passion for the program I listen to EVERY Tubby Smith radio show and watch every television show. I even have to endure jokes from my hubby about the priority they take. :ggrin:That's why I had posted in agreement with Will. I KNOW that Tubby has been expressing those things and the desire to get us back, for I have HEARD him with my own EARS. So, again, for that reason, I did not "get' this particular post, although I do "get" many points Dave has made about recruiting, for instance.

Dave's statement that concerned me the most was the one I just pasted at the top of this response. I wonder if all of you which posted agreement with Dave's post really believe that Coach Smith is "popping off" with negative comments about US. I honestly don't think Coach Smith "pops off," period. He has answered questions honestly, the way he feels. I have often heard him praise US, UK fans. He has responded to questions with honest answers, and I'm sure the fans he was talking about are fans such as Mr. Cheeks and fans who have NEVER wanted him as the UK coach.

FWIW, I don't think he's talking about Dave, for I have alwaysfeltthat Dave is sincere in his love for the program. That's why I have posted in that regard for a LONG time. :)With my passion for the program I have read Dave's posts for years, besides having enjoyed meeting him last year at a tailgate. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, Dave and I are FINE. :DToo, after reading this thread I am at least thankful that I don't think he was speaking of me as one of "THESE PEOPLE" who say something behind closed doorsthat they havenot been expressing here. At least I think Dave knows what I agree with and what I don't agree with, and that had mattered to me. :)

Anyway,when Tubbyanswers those questions,I feel sure he is talking aboutthose who HATE him, and thoseexist. Just ask ukbob how he feels about that hatred he has seen.:(None of the folksHEREremotely fall into that category. So I guess I'm saying we are ALL united in feeling PASSION for this program, including having concerns. :)

One of thebest points made in the thread has been that Tubby cares in a DIFFERENT way. Sure he does.ANY coach, including Coach Coker, does. Yet, as a teacher who was extremely conscientious, Isense inTubby the same trait. I honestly thinknot going to another Final Four is EATING at him. I really do.He's getting paid well while that is happening, while we fans are not, of course. :(Yet, yes, I still think he WANTS it as badly, butfor differentreasons. In particular, I think Tubby wants it for his players, who are like his SONS, besides for himself and for us fans, and I don't think that is a bad thing.

Most of all, as ukbob said, winning and getting us back to a Final Fourwill make threads like this one not happen (and it's becoming a pretty good thread, although I think folks are agreeing with more what they discussed at the tailgate than the point with which I am disagreeing here).What is wrong with Tubby Smith, in my opinion, is NOT what he is SAYING, but some of the things hehas beenDOING or NOT DOING(as he is not perfect and was far from perfect last season).Too, FWIW, I think TubbySmith LOVES most UK fans--yes, US. I hear it on those radio shows, and I LIKE it. :)Promise, Dave, I have HEARD Tubby Smith say almost the same things you just quoted from Coker. :)

[delkfor3]

I think Tubby Smith cares about UK, as long as he get's a check from UK(and before anyone attacks me, the same can be said about every coach). I think Tubby does care deeply about UK, just not as deeply as most of us care.

[Doug Hardin]

I don't think anyone's posted anything along these lines yet, so I'll chime in.

I think Will originally said that Tubby cares about the program passionately, but in a different way than the fans. I agree with that,but some of you tend to dismiss Tubby's love for the program as if it's just a job to him. I couldn't disagree more.

Most coaches view their team as a second family, and I'm sure Tubby feels this way too. As fans, we really want to see the program win. But ultimately, the players are just entertainers to us, regardless of how many UK shirts and car flags we have, or how far we travel to watch them, or how excited we get over a win or how disappointed we get over a loss. To a coach, they're much more like his sons (and in the cases of Saul and G.G., of course, literally his sons). Don't you think Tubby is at least as proud as us, probably moreso, to see guys like Prince, Magloire, Bogans, Mohammed, Daniels, and Rondo go through the program and make it in the NBA? Don't you think it hurts him even more than us that a guy like Chuck Hayes came close twice, but never got the chance to play in the Final Four? Maybe you can draw a distinction between "the program" that the fans love and individual players that wear the uniforms, but I think you're severely underestimating Tubby if you don't think he cares about the team as much as the fans do.


EDIT: I didn't see poodoo's post. She already made this point. But I've already typed it and posted it, so I'll just leave it up.

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

bigsky wrote: "Really, do people think that they care more about UK basketball and championships than Tubby Smith does?"

Yes,and I am one of those people.Tubby Smith hasn't been a UK fanfor five decades. Four generations of Tubby Smith's family aren't UK fans.Tubby Smith gets paid two million a year to care,and I get paid nothing, in fact, I pay, tocare about UK basketball.

So, yes, really, absolutely.





I think you have a valid point but consider this:

Is "fandom" an exponentially increasing attribute or is there an upper limit? I'd say that as big of a fan as I am now, I was just as big a fan after watching them for nine years (I'm going on 21 yearsnow). Does that mean that someone who has watched for 42 years is twice the fan I am ? I don't think so. So maybe Tubby didn't come in with the heart that we all have but I think it would be a mistake to assume that he doesn't have it now, just because he doesn't have roots in the bluegrass or because he gets paid. Tiger Woods makes about a billion times as much as Tubby and I think his desire to win is fairly evident, so I think the "he gets paid to care" accusation is just wrong. He gets paid because it's a JOB.

If you ask me, the way I see Tubby act on the sidelines, the screaming, the sweating , the staring, the frustration, the chest-bumping, tells me much of what I need to know about how much he cares.



Edit: Sorry to those of you who have already made this point. I should have read all the responses first.

[Mark Blueblood]

Actually, I don't think any of us here have a handle on whether or not and to what degree Tubby's love and devotion to UK is. What I do know is that coaches are a "different breed" and, being as competitive as they are, NOBODY likes to win more than they. In fact, their professional "life's blood" depends on it. So....if you think Tubby doesn't want to do the things it takes to put Kentucky back on top - well.....ain't nothing I can say that will wake you from your delusion.

In fact, it seems this topic has already been debated to an ultimate extreme.

[bluegrassking]

It's impossible to say what level of passion Tubby has for UK.

It matter little, it is his results that count.

Joe B Hall LOVES UK but had to be sent packing, Pitino loved Pitino far more than UK (if he loved UK at all) but is our second best coach behind Rupp.

Whatever his passions, I get the impression that Smith is not driven-it's not life and death to him. He has a healthy sense of reality that this is a game that is inherently unhealthy in his position. Rupp needed to win, Pitino needed to win, Hall wanted to win for UK but it wasn't ever enough,I believe Tubby wants to win which makes him less passionate than some expect from our head coach.

We need a coach that would put his job over his family. It's sick in a way but that is the nature of the job.

There will be no SI covers portraying Smith as "A Man Possesed", it's not in his makeup. What thewhat peoplearelooking for is that level of passion, it matters little if it is born of a love of UK hoops or egomania. Clearly, though that kind of ferver is what we demand for our money and is required to maintain the program along with high level coaching skills.

If you need to do something you will do whatever you can to make it happen, if you want something it will range from going on a list up to a concerted effort but having that driving need trumps 'want to' everytime.

Want and burning desire are two diffrent things. The source of the desire isirrelevent, only it's effects an overwhelming need to be the very best.

In Kentucky, basketball is a religion for ill or good. Everyone needs to come to grips with that and we'll understand each other much better. Our fans are zealots and we expect the same from our coach. It doesn't matter an iota if this is disporportionate or crazy because that is the way of things.

I'm a zealot, as is Richard Cheeks, as is poodoo. We all three may take it in diffrent directions but the same thing drives us all-an overly consuming love of UK Basketball and it's heritage and future. I'm not ashamed to say I care about this program more than would be considered "healthy".

Heratic or fundamentalist (I don't know which one I am or if I'm in the middle but close to one fringe or the other), this mere game is a passion for all of us. We pay to be a part of it, so we expect a lot out those who are paid to participate.

Fair or not. The national media may not grasp this but we here know better, and would be better off embracing it rather than running from it.

[poodoo]

It's impossible to say what level of passion Tubby has for UK.

It matter little, it is his results that count. QUOTE by bluegrassking

_________

Good points here, bluegrassking. I also like your point that many of us hereare quite PASSIONATE about UK basketball (and for me, by the way, I feel the same passion for UK football, although I have not gotten to experience the same pride, of course), regardless of how we feel about Tubby Smith as a coach. That is good for all us fans to remember. :)