The Old School JPS
10-20-2006, 01:22 PM
It's the state's flagship university and it has a stellar basketball tradition, but the football program has not been doing well and the coach is under fire. They have the worst defense in the conference.Football and men's basketball are the only sports that make money for the school, and football attendance has been declining due to poor results on the field. The coach is regarded as a good guy and the program has stayed out of trouble and graduated players, but it has not been winning games.
One fan and alum said: "I'm a diehard fan, but I stopped going to games about two years ago. My frustration level just got real high -- and still is -- because I don't see why we shouldn't consistently be in the Top 25 . . . . We've got the facilities, we've got the money, we're the flagship school for the state. ... And I think we might be worse off than when [a prior coach] was fired [in 2000]."
A current player said of the current coach: "He's a good coach and a good person. This season doesn't reflect how much time and effort all of our coaches put into everything around here."
It sounds a lot like the end of the Bill Curry years in Lexington, but the school is the University of North Carolina, and head coach John Bunting's job is in serious trouble. He has gone 25-41 overall (.379) and 16-27 (.372) in the conference while at UNC, taking them to only one bowl game (2004) and finishing 5-6 last year. This year has been bad, as was 2003.
Here are some recent articles on the situation:
Tar Heels have options with Bunting
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500218.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500218.html )
Who would UNC consider?
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500117.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500117.html )
Bunting's days are numbered
http://www.newsobserver.com/769/story/498909.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/769/story/498909.html )
There were some things in all of this that I found interesting and worth discussingas general propositions; I'd be interested in others' thoughts on them:
1) UNC's coach Bunting has 3 years and $858,000 left on his contract. Is that significantly less than what UK contracted to pay Brooks, Morriss, Mumme or even Curry? I recall Morriss making $650,000 a year and I think Brooks gets more. However, I don't know the breakdown, at UK or UNC, as to how much of that comes from the school and how much is from other things like the coach's show or endorsement deals. It's my recollection that Ron Cooper was paid $1 million by UL to go away, and Mumme got the same amount from UK. I don't remember how many years each had left on their contract but I'd think it would be close to the 3 that Bunting has. I'm somewhat curious if perhaps Bunting's contract was based more on incentive and accomplishment instead of just a big set figure per year. Does anyone know exactly how those figures break down?
2) UNC has 5 assistant football coaches with contracts extending beyond this year, and each has 1 or 2 years left on their contract for a total of $1.275 million. How does that compare to what UK pays its assistants - now, and in the recent past?
3) Is it better these days to fire a coach in midseason instead of waiting until the end of the season? The article notes that Florida athletics director Jeremy Foley said firing Ron Zook in October 2004 allowed him extra time to research possible successors: "How do I make calls about Urban Meyer when I still have a coach?'' Foley told The New York Times. Duke coach Ted Roof said it was an advantage when he took over when Carl Franks was fired in 2003: "You had a five-week audition", Roof said. "It was a trial run so they can evaluate what you did and didn't do." East Carolina athletics director Terry Holland chose to tell former football coach John Thompson in 2004 and former basketball coach Bill Herrion in 2005 that they would be let go when they asked for his thoughts during the season. At Kentucky, Curry's firing was announced after a lopsided loss to LSU put UK at 1-5. UK promptly reeled off 3 straight conference wins, the players played much better, Tim Couch stayed (maybe due in part to who was named the next coach) and fans were, to say the least, relieved that Curry had been relieved. I would suspect, but can't recall for sure, that season ticket orders and renewals were much better than they would have been had Curry stayed - but I don't know how much an early firing announcement would affect that.
4) One of the concerns mentioned about firing Bunting is that the school could lose some recruits who appear likely to come to UNC. (They apparently have four verbals from four separate 4 star prospects - pretty darn good for a team in their situation, I'd think.) How much should that factor into the decision?
5) Bunting and his advocates claim that the program is showing progress despite the poor win/loss record. How long does a claim like that hold water? How long is it until the win column becomes the primary or only gauge of improvement or progress? (I think that's a question that applies not only at places like UNC, UK or Vanderbilt, but also at a place like Georgia when they fired Jim Donnan or Ole Miss when they foolishly, IMO, let their coach go a few years ago.)
6) One article out of North Carolina lists the following as ten likely candidates for the UNC job. How many of them would appeal to you, or be someone you would consider a particularly good hire for UNC or anyone else?
Butch Davis, NFL broadcaster. Was 51-20 as the head coach at Miami from 1995-2000.
Bobby Johnson, Vanderbilt head coach. Former Clemson defensive back and longtime head coach at Furman, Johnson is 72-73 overall in college, including 14-39 at Vanderbilt.
Paul Johnson, Navy head coach. A 1979 graduate of Western Carolina, Johnson is 33-23 at Navy and 95-33 overall as a head coach at Georgia Southern and Navy.
Steve Kragthorpe, Tulsa head coach. The son of a coach and 1988 West Texas graduate is 26-18 as a head coach, all at Tulsa.
Mike Leach, Texas Tech head coach. He has a law degree from Pepperdine and is 52-31 in seven seasons at Texas Tech.
Steve Logan, offensive coordinator in NFL Europe for Rhein Fire. Logan went 69-58 with five bowl appearances in 11 seasons at East Carolina.
Gary Patterson, Texas Christian head coach. Patterson is 44-30 in six seasons at TCU.
Bobby Petrino, Louisville head coach. A native of Helena, Mont., Petrino is 35-8 in four seasons at Louisville.
Greg Schiano, Rutgers head coach. A native of Wyckoff, N.J., Schiano is 25-39 in six seasons with the Scarlet Knights, including 6-0 this season.
Tyrone Willingham, Washington head coach. A Kinston native, he was 44-36-1 in seven seasons at Stanford and 21-15 in three seasons at Notre Dame. Washington is 4-3 this season after going 2-9 in Willingham's first season.
I can't say I think that all the coaches on that list would excite me or a fanbase at UNC or anywhere else. Some, but definitely not all.
Any thoughts, or insights/information on #1 or #2?
I've been offline for a while and on my return here thoughtan opportunity for somefootball in general, not UK-specific, talk might be what the doctor ordered at this point. I'd love to discuss those general propositions without it turning into UK-specific talk, because I think they are interesting topics worth discussing in a bigger pictureand not as a rehash of the 'should they stay or should they go' cycle of arguments.
One fan and alum said: "I'm a diehard fan, but I stopped going to games about two years ago. My frustration level just got real high -- and still is -- because I don't see why we shouldn't consistently be in the Top 25 . . . . We've got the facilities, we've got the money, we're the flagship school for the state. ... And I think we might be worse off than when [a prior coach] was fired [in 2000]."
A current player said of the current coach: "He's a good coach and a good person. This season doesn't reflect how much time and effort all of our coaches put into everything around here."
It sounds a lot like the end of the Bill Curry years in Lexington, but the school is the University of North Carolina, and head coach John Bunting's job is in serious trouble. He has gone 25-41 overall (.379) and 16-27 (.372) in the conference while at UNC, taking them to only one bowl game (2004) and finishing 5-6 last year. This year has been bad, as was 2003.
Here are some recent articles on the situation:
Tar Heels have options with Bunting
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500218.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500218.html )
Who would UNC consider?
http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500117.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/500117.html )
Bunting's days are numbered
http://www.newsobserver.com/769/story/498909.html (http://www.newsobserver.com/769/story/498909.html )
There were some things in all of this that I found interesting and worth discussingas general propositions; I'd be interested in others' thoughts on them:
1) UNC's coach Bunting has 3 years and $858,000 left on his contract. Is that significantly less than what UK contracted to pay Brooks, Morriss, Mumme or even Curry? I recall Morriss making $650,000 a year and I think Brooks gets more. However, I don't know the breakdown, at UK or UNC, as to how much of that comes from the school and how much is from other things like the coach's show or endorsement deals. It's my recollection that Ron Cooper was paid $1 million by UL to go away, and Mumme got the same amount from UK. I don't remember how many years each had left on their contract but I'd think it would be close to the 3 that Bunting has. I'm somewhat curious if perhaps Bunting's contract was based more on incentive and accomplishment instead of just a big set figure per year. Does anyone know exactly how those figures break down?
2) UNC has 5 assistant football coaches with contracts extending beyond this year, and each has 1 or 2 years left on their contract for a total of $1.275 million. How does that compare to what UK pays its assistants - now, and in the recent past?
3) Is it better these days to fire a coach in midseason instead of waiting until the end of the season? The article notes that Florida athletics director Jeremy Foley said firing Ron Zook in October 2004 allowed him extra time to research possible successors: "How do I make calls about Urban Meyer when I still have a coach?'' Foley told The New York Times. Duke coach Ted Roof said it was an advantage when he took over when Carl Franks was fired in 2003: "You had a five-week audition", Roof said. "It was a trial run so they can evaluate what you did and didn't do." East Carolina athletics director Terry Holland chose to tell former football coach John Thompson in 2004 and former basketball coach Bill Herrion in 2005 that they would be let go when they asked for his thoughts during the season. At Kentucky, Curry's firing was announced after a lopsided loss to LSU put UK at 1-5. UK promptly reeled off 3 straight conference wins, the players played much better, Tim Couch stayed (maybe due in part to who was named the next coach) and fans were, to say the least, relieved that Curry had been relieved. I would suspect, but can't recall for sure, that season ticket orders and renewals were much better than they would have been had Curry stayed - but I don't know how much an early firing announcement would affect that.
4) One of the concerns mentioned about firing Bunting is that the school could lose some recruits who appear likely to come to UNC. (They apparently have four verbals from four separate 4 star prospects - pretty darn good for a team in their situation, I'd think.) How much should that factor into the decision?
5) Bunting and his advocates claim that the program is showing progress despite the poor win/loss record. How long does a claim like that hold water? How long is it until the win column becomes the primary or only gauge of improvement or progress? (I think that's a question that applies not only at places like UNC, UK or Vanderbilt, but also at a place like Georgia when they fired Jim Donnan or Ole Miss when they foolishly, IMO, let their coach go a few years ago.)
6) One article out of North Carolina lists the following as ten likely candidates for the UNC job. How many of them would appeal to you, or be someone you would consider a particularly good hire for UNC or anyone else?
Butch Davis, NFL broadcaster. Was 51-20 as the head coach at Miami from 1995-2000.
Bobby Johnson, Vanderbilt head coach. Former Clemson defensive back and longtime head coach at Furman, Johnson is 72-73 overall in college, including 14-39 at Vanderbilt.
Paul Johnson, Navy head coach. A 1979 graduate of Western Carolina, Johnson is 33-23 at Navy and 95-33 overall as a head coach at Georgia Southern and Navy.
Steve Kragthorpe, Tulsa head coach. The son of a coach and 1988 West Texas graduate is 26-18 as a head coach, all at Tulsa.
Mike Leach, Texas Tech head coach. He has a law degree from Pepperdine and is 52-31 in seven seasons at Texas Tech.
Steve Logan, offensive coordinator in NFL Europe for Rhein Fire. Logan went 69-58 with five bowl appearances in 11 seasons at East Carolina.
Gary Patterson, Texas Christian head coach. Patterson is 44-30 in six seasons at TCU.
Bobby Petrino, Louisville head coach. A native of Helena, Mont., Petrino is 35-8 in four seasons at Louisville.
Greg Schiano, Rutgers head coach. A native of Wyckoff, N.J., Schiano is 25-39 in six seasons with the Scarlet Knights, including 6-0 this season.
Tyrone Willingham, Washington head coach. A Kinston native, he was 44-36-1 in seven seasons at Stanford and 21-15 in three seasons at Notre Dame. Washington is 4-3 this season after going 2-9 in Willingham's first season.
I can't say I think that all the coaches on that list would excite me or a fanbase at UNC or anywhere else. Some, but definitely not all.
Any thoughts, or insights/information on #1 or #2?
I've been offline for a while and on my return here thoughtan opportunity for somefootball in general, not UK-specific, talk might be what the doctor ordered at this point. I'd love to discuss those general propositions without it turning into UK-specific talk, because I think they are interesting topics worth discussing in a bigger pictureand not as a rehash of the 'should they stay or should they go' cycle of arguments.
