What grade do you give Tubby? [Archive] - Wildcat Nation Forums

ukbob

11-15-2006, 09:22 AM

C-, at best.

The good news is that it isn't finished. We still have a potential A class.

The bad news is that if we do not get Moses, Lucas or Patterson, there are not enough backup options to get more than a C, IMO.

And this was the class that every guru/insider/fan knew we had to have a strong recruiting class for the future. This class was loaded with talent. We have gotten very few morsels from it....so far.

UKHAS7NCAA

11-15-2006, 09:27 AM

Bob, I'm taking a wait and see about the three we have signed before I call them "morsels". You never know, they might be as good or better than Meeks, Jasper & Stevenson. :thumbup

VIIBanners

11-15-2006, 09:34 AM

yeah, these kids have just started their senior senior season in HS. They are still babies, they could be men by next August.

ukbob

11-15-2006, 09:38 AM

UKHAS7NCAA wrote: Bob, I'm taking a wait and see about the three we have signed before I call them "morsels". You never know, they might be as good or better than Meeks, Jasper & Stevenson. :thumbup

I did not mean this as a knock on Stewart, Harrisand WIlliams. really. I hope they are just like our current crop and do really well. I think they will in time.

However, only Stewart is a known commodity, so to speak. We need other "known" commodities as well likeMoses, Patterson, Lucas, etc......

It is frustrating to me(and others likely) that Smith has seemingly put his entire emphasis on these 3 and has no viable backup plan at all. While I still think we will get 1 or 2 of those mentioned, we could as easily lose all 3.

I have my theories and beliefs on our recruiting, but I'll wait until we get positive or negative news on the rest of this class. Hoping for the best here.

Swimmer4uk

11-15-2006, 10:04 AM

ukbob wrote: UKHAS7NCAA wrote: Bob, I'm taking a wait and see about the three we have signed before I call them "morsels". You never know, they might be as good or better than Meeks, Jasper & Stevenson. :thumbup

I did not mean this as a knock on Stewart, Harrisand WIlliams. really. I hope they are just like our current crop and do really well. I think they will in time.

However, only Stewart is a known commodity, so to speak. We need other "known" commodities as well likeMoses, Patterson, Lucas, etc......

It is frustrating to me(and others likely) that Smith has seemingly put his entire emphasis on these 3 and has no viable backup plan at all. While I still think we will get 1 or 2 of those mentioned, we could as easily lose all 3.

I have my theories and beliefs on our recruiting, but I'll wait until we get positive or negative news on the rest of this class. Hoping for the best here.

I agree that TS seems to put too much emphasis on too few players w/o the backup plan. However, with this class, AJ Stewart is a solid 4star recruit and I think he will play a lot like Kaz. But this Harris kid ... I think we landed a star there and can't wait till January when he can play.

UKfaninCO

11-15-2006, 10:18 AM

RaleighCat wrote: I
This would be my grade at this point too. I like the stuff I'm hearing about the guys coming in, don't get me wrong. Those guys will contribute early and often, but we don't seem to be quite meeting our needs. This is also not a knock on the new guys playing this year. I'm as excited about them as I can be and looking forward to some good seasons with these guys. But the fact of the matter is we can't seem to close the deal on the guys we really want and that is disturbing. Really disturbing.

wildcatcrazy

11-15-2006, 10:25 AM

Let me preface by saying I am a Tubby supporter. If I had my way, Tubby would stay another ten years, win another national title and go to three final fours.

That said, something is wrong with the way we recruit IMO. We focused on kids each year that are choosing schools that are not the same caliber of UK and are also loosing on kids regularly to the high profile schools.

I am concerned that Coach Smith continues to believe he can coach them up. That is, get a middle of the road recruit and coach him to be a better player. That worked well with Daniels and Fitch (although no Final Fours) but did not work with Woo and Shagari. That process is--at best--a crap shoot.

There is no reason we are not getting these kids based upon the PROGRAM. IMO, one of two things is happening:

1)Tubby and or his staff are not agressive enough, organized enough, passionate enough, young enough--whatever--to convince the kids to come to UK or;

2) The constant negative talk against Coach Smith and the "will he be here" question is successfully being used against us.

I believe both are true and the only way to get rid of item #2 is to have a great year--and I just don't see that coming--so the questions about Coach Smith will continue.

Many fans have contributed to the problem IMO---plus to be truthful, I believe Rigot is in WAY over his head!

winchestercat

11-15-2006, 11:20 AM

id have to give coach smith a D - given what we need and what we have at the current class. its great that harris couldn't cut it at Portland State and we were lucky to get him and Williams looks like a great project, Stewart is a step above Williams, but ranked at 100 or in that area.. All in all it wasn't what i was expecting.. Hopefully, the icing on the cake hasn't come yet.

sardiscat

11-15-2006, 11:31 AM

A-. Two athletic forwards and a big true center. Very good for an early signing period. I don't compare the results against what would have happened if I were the emperor of the world and could have my wildest dreamcome true. I just look at who UK actually signed, and I see very positive additions to the flock. I don't see UK needing instant help next year from anybody who is currently in high school. UK is going to be loaded next year just with the players who are returning, and it definitely is not the right school for any of this year's high school players who want to play one year and be off to the NBA.

Wildcat97

11-15-2006, 12:30 PM

sardiscat wrote: A-. Two athletic forwards and a big true center. Very good for an early signing period. I don't compare the results against what would have happened if I were the emperor of the world and could have my wildest dreamcome true. I just look at who UK actually signed, and I see very positive additions to the flock. I don't see UK needing instant help next year from anybody who is currently in high school. UK is going to be loaded next year just with the players who are returning, and it definitely is not the right school for any of this year's high school players who want to play one year and be off to the NBA.
Ditto my thoughts Sardiscat, but I only differ with the grade...B as it IS incomplete for now, but I really like the additions. This team will do well with this years Freshmen and the signees...desire to play for UK is a huge plus in my book and the desire to be a teamis evident to me.

katfever

11-15-2006, 12:45 PM

It is a typical recruiting year- scrambling for quality recruits after the vast majority have committed elsewhere. It is a pattern under Tubby and the reason our recruiting (and program)are inconsistent. Three recruits so far and one barely sniffs the top 100. Everyone agreed this had to be a monster year for Tubby in recruiting- it still could be- but it appears Tubby has his work cut out for him if it happens. Tubby is the problem because he does not fix the probem- poor asst coach recruiting.

DCWildcat

11-15-2006, 02:25 PM

Incomplete is really all I can give.

If this class were our final class: F
This class, + Moses, is final: C-
This class, + Moses & Lucas: B-
This class, + Patterson: B-
This class, + Moses & Patterson: B+
This class, + Lucas & Patterson: B

This class, + Moses, Lucas, Patterson: A-

We've got a lot of work cut out for us

trublue4life

11-15-2006, 03:32 PM

I realize "recruiting" is almost a sport and season in and of itself, but I've never been all that fond of rankings and grades based on young kids that have yet to set foot on anybody's campus. As far as I know no recruiting class has ever won a national title based on what it was ranked coming out of high school. You need to look no farther than Gainesville last year or right here at home in '98 to see what I mean.

As for Tubby, youcan really only say he's put together a suspect class in one year ('03) but even that is still not definite. I mean, if at the end of the season we look back and see that Bobby Perry becamethe team leader and had an all-SEC caliber year while Sheray played a solid 4 either as a starter orbackup with Woo giving solid contributions off the bench for a team that reached the final four,do we still call that class a bust? Then, if Jared Carter becomes an all-SEC center and first round draft pickby the time he's a senior and is a major reason the current freshman class goes toyet anotherfinal four, do we still say Tubby "whiffed" in '04?

The point is grading a class before they finish is nothing more than a way to pass time and stimulate debates. It means nothing. Do I want Tubby to sign the best talent available every season? Sure I do. But this recruiting season is not over and many want to prounce it dead already. If Tubby signs Patterson and/or Lucas in the spring some will call it scrambling; I will call it staying the course. But no matter what happens we won't really know what grade he deserves for this class until, say, 2008 or 2009.

wildcatcrazy

11-15-2006, 03:58 PM

Trublue,

I don't disagree with you but we have to begin to sign some of the top rated kids (by consensus) and do it early.

It seems, with this staff, that we are always back on our heels and waiting for a kid to reach a decision--and more often than not it has gone the other way.

I believe Rigot is out of his league and while I admire Tubby's loyalty--I believe he is not getting the job done and, as much as I hate it, Reggie is in the same boat. If we lose out on both Patterson and Lucas and don't fill those spots with top 50 recruits, we have "underperformed" which happens way too often in the Tubby era IMO.

Don't get me wrong. I am a Tubby fan--but regardless of how great a coach he is he can't makeME into a good player--and he can't make decent players into great ones.

(In addition, he has missed out on some lower rates kids (Lofton) and recruted some higher rated kids (Carruth) so you have to begin to question the process and those that are out in the "field" and bringing information back to Tubby.)

Is is broke? (It being our recruiting) Certainly not IMO, but is is in need of a major tune-up and if we don't start purring better soon, it is in need of a majoroverhaul. (To continue with the silly auto analogy, I'm not talking about getting a newcar (getting rid of Tubby) but I am talking about getting new parts(Rigot and Hason and even possibly Hobbs). Denyying we have a problem doesn't make it any less of a problem.

katfever

11-15-2006, 04:18 PM

trublue4life wrote: I realize "recruiting" is almost a sport and season in and of itself, but I've never been all that fond of rankings and grades based on young kids that have yet to set foot on anybody's campus. As far as I know no recruiting class has ever won a national title based on what it was ranked coming out of high school. You need to look no farther than Gainesville last year or right here at home in '98 to see what I mean.

As for Tubby, youcan really only say he's put together a suspect class in one year ('03) but even that is still not definite. I mean, if at the end of the season we look back and see that Bobby Perry becamethe team leader and had an all-SEC caliber year while Sheray played a solid 4 either as a starter orbackup with Woo giving solid contributions off the bench for a team that reached the final four,do we still call that class a bust? Then, if Jared Carter becomes an all-SEC center and first round draft pickby the time he's a senior and is a major reason the current freshman class goes toyet anotherfinal four, do we still say Tubby "whiffed" in '04?

The point is grading a class before they finish is nothing more than a way to pass time and stimulate debates. It means nothing. Do I want Tubby to sign the best talent available every season? Sure I do. But this recruiting season is not over and many want to prounce it dead already. If Tubby signs Patterson and/or Lucas in the spring some will call it scrambling; I will call it staying the course. But no matter what happens we won't really know what grade he deserves for this class until, say, 2008 or 2009.
Hmmmm. It may mean nothing but no final four in almost a decade, two second round flameouts in last 3 years and a22-13 record speaks volumes about Tubby's recruiting.

sardiscat

11-15-2006, 04:21 PM

"I don't disagree with you but we have to begin to sign some of the top rated kids (by consensus) and do it early."

An answer Rick Pitino gave on his call-in show back in his UK days in response to a similar concern expressed by a caller comes to mind here: "The object in recruiting is not to sign the players who were high school all-Americans. The object in recruiting is to sign the players who are going to be all-Americans in college."

atlandy

11-15-2006, 04:24 PM

If this is it, Tubby gets an F. Odviously there is potential for an A+. Tubby needs to get a real salesman in here, a closer. Right now we have one guy in the top 100. What is Ohio State, N.C State or even Indiana doing differently? How are they able to get players and not be close to the beach?

RaleighCat

11-15-2006, 04:31 PM

sardiscat wrote: "I don't disagree with you but we have to begin to sign some of the top rated kids (by consensus) and do it early."

An answer Rick Pitino gave on his call-in show back in his UK days in response to a similar concern expressed by a caller comes to mind here: "The object in recruiting is not to sign the players who were high school all-Americans. The object in recruiting is to sign the players who are going to be all-Americans in college."

If that's the true test we've performed even worse.

I personally don't think that way, but using this logic goes too far the other way. Recruiting rankings are flawed. But if a Top 10 kid plays more like a Top 25, then you've still got a special talent. We've been lucky to find Top 100 kids who play like Top 50. And we've got Top 100 who play far below that.

Go back through the Top 20 HS players for the past several years and you won't find many who struggled in college. You'll find several who left too early or tried to play in the NBA right away, but you won't find too many that didn't pan out well in college ball. I'd rather take my chances with top talent if given the choice.

katfever

11-15-2006, 04:33 PM

atlandy wrote: If this is it, Tubby gets an F. Odviously there is potential for an A+. Tubby needs to get a real salesman in here, a closer. Right now we have one guy in the top 100. What is Ohio State, N.C State or even Indiana doing differently? How are they able to get players and not be close to the beach?
Exactly. Sampson walks in a gets a blockbuster class- hell Painter at Purdue gets 4 in the top 100. Tubby is left scrambling as he is always is. It is pathetic really.

trublue4life

11-15-2006, 04:39 PM

katfever wrote: trublue4life wrote: I realize "recruiting" is almost a sport and season in and of itself, but I've never been all that fond of rankings and grades based on young kids that have yet to set foot on anybody's campus. As far as I know no recruiting class has ever won a national title based on what it was ranked coming out of high school. You need to look no farther than Gainesville last year or right here at home in '98 to see what I mean.

As for Tubby, youcan really only say he's put together a suspect class in one year ('03) but even that is still not definite. I mean, if at the end of the season we look back and see that Bobby Perry becamethe team leader and had an all-SEC caliber year while Sheray played a solid 4 either as a starter orbackup with Woo giving solid contributions off the bench for a team that reached the final four,do we still call that class a bust? Then, if Jared Carter becomes an all-SEC center and first round draft pickby the time he's a senior and is a major reason the current freshman class goes toyet anotherfinal four, do we still say Tubby "whiffed" in '04?

The point is grading a class before they finish is nothing more than a way to pass time and stimulate debates. It means nothing. Do I want Tubby to sign the best talent available every season? Sure I do. But this recruiting season is not over and many want to prounce it dead already. If Tubby signs Patterson and/or Lucas in the spring some will call it scrambling; I will call it staying the course. But no matter what happens we won't really know what grade he deserves for this class until, say, 2008 or 2009.
Hmmmm. It may mean nothing but no final four in almost a decade, two second round flameouts in last 3 years and a22-13 record speaks volumes about Tubby's recruiting.

As do two Elite 8's that were a play or two or sprained ankle away from final fours. Iinteresting how you choose to emphasize the flameouts over the near misses. Also, interesting how you want to dwell on 22-13 rather than most wins in the nationover three years. If we are talking about the merits of recruiting classes shouldn't those carry as much weight as your negative examples?

Art Vandelay

11-15-2006, 05:16 PM

Keep in mind when grading Tubby's recruiting that he's going after a lot of high profile kids and missing on them. It's not like his recruiting strategy is to focus on "under the radar" or "diamond in the rough" type recruits. We end up with a lot of those, but I don't think it's by design.

Something is clearly wrong with the recruiting picture. Top recruits seem to knock each other down trying to play for Duke, UNC, Kansas, Florida, etc., but it's like pulling teeth to get any top recruit to commit to Kentucky these days, especially in the fall signing period. While most of the afore mentioned schools are now focused on the season ahead and recruiting for their '08 class, we're still expending a lot of energy on this year's recruiting class.

Based on the resulsts so far, you have to give Tubby an F for this year. He still has a chance to bring it up, however.

Spanish Moss

11-15-2006, 05:32 PM

DCWildcat wrote: Incomplete is really all I can give.

If this class were our final class: F
This class, + Moses, is final: C-
This class, + Moses & Lucas: B-
This class, + Patterson: B-
This class, + Moses & Patterson: B+
This class, + Lucas & Patterson: B

This class, + Moses, Lucas, Patterson: A-

We've got a lot of work cut out for us

Thank you for an honest assessment. I agree with every word. If we don't sign better players than the three we have, well I don't even want to think about such a thing.

trublue4life

11-15-2006, 05:40 PM

Art Vandelay wrote: Keep in mind when grading Tubby's recruiting that he's going after a lot of high profile kids and missing on them. It's not like his recruiting strategy is to focus on "under the radar" or "diamond in the rough" type recruits. We end up with a lot of those, but I don't think it's by design.

Something is clearly wrong with the recruiting picture. Top recruits seem to knock each other down trying to play for Duke, UNC, Kansas, Florida, etc., but it's like pulling teeth to get any top recruit to commit to Kentucky these days, especially in the fall signing period. While most of the afore mentioned schools are now focused on the season ahead and recruiting for their '08 class, we're still expending a lot of energy on this year's recruiting class.

Based on the resulsts so far, you have to give Tubby an F for this year. He still has a chance to bring it up, however.

he's going after a lot of high profile kids and missing on them.

Besides last year's PF's who would that be?

Plus, your theorydoesn't apply to this year's class with the exception of Perry Stevenson (as opposed to Brandon Wright & Deon Thompson) or the 2004 class. In both cases Tubby signed his primary targets (Rondo, Crawford, Morris, Bradley, Meeks, Jasper & Porter) and most were fall signings (exception was Morris). This year he has signed two of his primary targets (Stewart & Williams), will most likely sign a third (Moses, who will be a fall commit, spring sign) and is still among leaders for two others, which of course will be spring commits & spring signs if he gets them.