Behave or else! Unruly kids stir debate

[PsychoCat]

When our children were little if we took them somewhere, and if they startedcrying or misbehaving we would leave ..... I have even left a whole basket of groceries sitting in the middle of a grocery store isle .......I cant tell you the number of times I have sat through a movie or church service or out to eat with whiny crying kids next to us and the parents sit and do nothing.....I love kids, I have two of my own anddo home day care as a business and realize that all children have melt downs at times....but it is the parents responisbility to take care of it....even if it means leaving....how do you all feel? If you had small children and entered this business would you feel offended?

[line]
Cafe’s sign urging well-heeled children sparks outpouring of anger, support
CHICAGO - Dan McCauley had seen one too many kids at his cafe lying on the floor in front of the counter, careening off the glass pastry case, coming perilously close to getting their fingers pinched in the front door. So he posted a sign: “Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices.”

To him, it was a simple reminder to parents to keep an eye on their children and set some limits. But to some parents in his North Side Chicago neighborhood, the sign may as well have read, “If you have kids, you’re not welcome.”

That one little notice, adorned with pastel hand prints, has become a lightning rod in a larger debate over parenting and misbehaving children.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10338070/

[fanaticfan]

As a proud parent of a daughter and now three grandchildren, I would not be offended. If my child misbehaved in public to the point where it was disturbing the people around me, I would leave. Now, we wll know that children all have their moments and I am not talking about these, but some children are allowed to run amok and have their way and the business owneres are worried about liability let alone how annoyed the out customers might be. I understand this is a touchy subject but I do feel that it is the parents responsibility to make the children behave in a shared space.

[oruacat2]

As a customer who has no children, I understand that a parent cannot control the situation entirely 100% of the time, so I'm generally very patient with little kids up toa point. Teenagers are another story altogether, but that's for other threads.

As a guy who once worked in a corporate "casual dining" restaurant, I can tell you that far too many times children are a nightmare. Not to condemn all parents, but you'd be shocked at how many families let their kids run wild inside that restaurant, and you'd really be surprised at how little they seem to care when their children absolutely trash the place.

I don't blame this particular business owner at all, and if anything, he was far less harsh with that sign than he could (and perhaps should) be.

JMO

KD

[capcat]

Setting limits on kids in public places is absolutely fair, imo. Kidsneed clear expectations/natural consequences and parents owe that to them.I thought the wording on this sign was diplomatic, not offensive.

[CoquieKat]

The people who took the most offense to the sign are probably the ones who need to pay the most attention to it.

And note that he said "children of ALL ages." A few adults could probably stand to follow the sign's directions as well.

[WildcatGirl]

I totally agree...if your children aren't prepared to be in public then they shouldn't be...period...no exceptions other than if they are sick and at the ER! Otherwise, if you aren't willing or capable of controlling your child's behavior you have no right to take them out.

I agree that all children are sometimes going to get unruly...it's just a part of the process of learning what is and is not acceptable...but if you can't immediately get them back under control and they are potentially disturbing those around you it is your DUTY to remove the children IMMEDIATELY.

I have two children...and can tell you that I wouldn't hesitate for a second to walk out of a resturant without getting to eat (but not without leaving enough money to pay for my order) if I had taken my children and they were not acting properly. I can thankfully recall only one such occasion, and my daughter was doing NOTHING in comparison to the things I often witness children doing while their parents ignore them and continue with their meal (or shopping or whatever) as though they are the only ones there and this behavior shouldn't affect anyone else.

Once while eating at a Ruby Tuesday's with my parents and (apx 3yo) DD, she was repeatedly swinging her legs kicking the booth in the process...which, had their been someone sitting in the booth behind us would have beenannoying to them...I didn't feel that the fact that there wasn't at that moment really mattered...as good behavior is a habit...not an act and to allowmisbehavior in some circumstances and not others sends the child a mixed and confusing message. She was warned 2 times to stop...once simply a reminder and the second that she would miss her meal and be taken to the car if it happened again. The third time she was escorted from the establishment and waited in the car (without lunch) with my mother who volunteered to have her meal boxed up and brought to her while my father and I waited for the food and ate. After we finished eating, we brought my mother's food in a take out container and she ate it at home. My daughter didn't get lunch. Given that she was a well nourished child, missing one meal was not going to do her any physical harm, but it certainly made the intended point. She has always been extremely well behaved in public...and notices kids who aren't...often commenting that their parents should 'do something' and she's exactly right!

It's simple...teach your children how they should behave in public or keep them at home...everyone else shouldn't have to suffer for someone elses lack of parenting skills. If you won't maintain order with your children then I think you give up the privledge of going out to eat, or to the mall, or whatever unless you are willing to hire a sitter.

[CoquieKat]

WildcatGirl wrote: She was warned 2 times to stop...once simply a reminder and the second that she would miss her meal and be taken to the car if it happened again. The third time she was escorted from the establishment and waited in the car (without lunch) with my mother who volunteered to have her meal boxed up and brought to her while my father and I waited for the food and ate. After we finished eating, we brought my mother's food in a take out container and she ate it at home. My daughter didn't get lunch. Given that she was a well nourished child, missing one meal was not going to do her any physical harm, but it certainly made the intended point. She has always been extremely well behaved in public...and notices kids who aren't...often commenting that their parents should 'do something' and she's exactly right!

I agree with everything in your post, but this particular point really resounded with me. Too many children these days have learned that their parents' threats are empty, so they'll keep misbehaving without consequences. You followed through on your warning, and your daughter learned that she'd better not try that again. And you didn't have to yell and scream at her to get your point across.

Gee, I've been watching too much "Nanny 911"... :)

[capcat]

Speaking of following through...when my children were teenagers, they would lock their doors and talk on the phone, etc. When we knocked, they would take their time to answer, or call out "What do you want?". My husband removed their doors and put them in storage until they learned to hop to and show respect. I've told this story before, butit comes to mind whenI think of lost privileges/natural consequences for undesirable behavior.

[WildcatGirl]

Natural consequences is the best learning tool there is, IMO. I don't think that yelling is effective for anyone. (not about to say I've never done it...I'm human with a patience limit too...but it doesn't work...and it isn't my method of choice) I believe that a parents #1 job is to teach there children to not need them anymore. And the best way to do that is to teach them how to take responsibility for themselves. That includes their behavior in public as well as many other things...taking care of their own belongings, completing homework, etc.

I don't spend every night looking over their shoulder to make sure their homework is done...if they need help they are welcome to ask...and know it. (Well these day's that doesn't apply to Ciera anymore...her work is way over mom's head...lol) If they need something for school (supplies, lunch money, forms signed, etc.) they have to ask me...and not as we are walking out the door morning of...sorry. My kids know...I'm going to do everything I can to help them with school...but I am not going to bail them out if they fall down on the job (so to speak).

Take another thing I often hear parents complain about...the late night posterboard/styrofoam ball/whatever run. Teachers rarely (in truth) assign kids a project or something for homework that requires special materials and expect it back the next day (like a book report with a diorama...or a science project with a poster) so my expectation is that you will tell me when you get the assignment if you need some posterboard, or whatever. I will not go out after I get home from work to get these items...if you get a zero...that is a natural consequence of not being prepared.

On the occasions where an assignment is made with one days notice my expectation is that you will let me know FIRST thing out of school...and for both of my kids this is well before I arrive home in the evening...I'll be happy to stop on my way home and get what you need....but don't expect that once I've come home, cooked dinner, taken my bath and am in my pajamas that I'm going to go back out to get them because you suddenly remember that it's due tomorrow...not my problem...it's yours. It's their assignment not mine...I know that I have a responsibilty as a parent...to provide them with what they need...but it's not my responsibity to ask them every night if they need it. If you need my help, you've got it...but you have to take the responsibilty to let me know you need it.

I know other parents who jokingly (though they probably really mean it) refer to me as a mean mom for this viewpoint...but think about it...if as an adult your boss gives you a task that you would need to have materials for and you failed to fill out a purchase order request but then went to your accounting department 30 minutes before the meeting demanding that someone drop what they are doing and go get your stuff...how do you think that would go over with your boss? Same principle...and habits are hard to break...my job as a parent are to teach my kids good ones that will serve them well not just today or next week or this year, but the rest of their lives...so why would I let my kids misbehave or put their responsibilty off on others...these things will get you NOWHERE in the real world the rest of your life.

Yeah this is one of my soap box things...parents who don't teach their kids how to get by in the real world then wonder why they are paying their way at 40...which judging from the people I encountered in social services is becoming more and more common.

[capcat]

I totally agree with you, Lisa. We can either jump through hoops and end up exhausted and cross or set boundaries. What is the book...I can't remember, but it gives examples of childhood behaviors and translates that into what it will look like as an adult on the job, as a parent, etc.

[WildcatGirl]

Never seen that book Capcat...but I would love to...have a few people I'd like to send it to anonymously...lol.

[Calsegs]

I'm sorry that I missed this thread while it was "happening."

I agree with the posts, completely.

A situation, that I didn't see addressed, granted I skimmed this thread quickly, was the 9th circle of hell created by the miserable , sceaming 18 month( or younger) old and parents(read: mother) stuck on a 5 hour airplane flight.

There are many strategies and I'm sure we've all employed them , for managing such a flight with toddlers, young children. With varying degrees of success, flights with young kids and parents cooperating with a plan, can be almost pleasant.

But,I'm still scarred by the memories of my inability to calm my raging infant/pre-two toddler on a cross country flight. A pediatrician from my parents'generation laughed and said "that's what Thorazine suppositories are for.."

What do you all think, providing anyone reads this question..?

[Jeff Craddock]

^

Calsegs, any opinion I have on this will be clouded by the nine hours I spent having my seatback kicked by a toddler on a flight between London and Mumbai (Bombay). I kept imploring, begging, demanding, insisting that the mother make it stop--to her credit, she apologized and did all she could--but the kid would wail like a banshee when the mother tried to get him to stop. So which was worse? It was easily the most miserable flight I've had, even worse than the flight from Mumbai to Copenhagen, after having eaten some bad street food about 12 hours before takeoff. :shock:

I like the idea of Thorazine suppositories. Or, short of that, maybe the offending kid should be taken outside after the second warning.....;) (Kidding, of course....)

[Calsegs]

No kidding ,Jeff. As I said , purgatory on earth.

As you suggest, in some of these circumstances , no amount of parental invervention is effective.
Although, someone tall enough to kick the back of the seat in front of him/her , might be aware enough for an adult to manipulate/threaten/ subdue...

This situation is designed to torture the mother /primary caregiver who is being drivved crazy by the behavior, and is mortified at causing another passenger's distress.
Maybe you could have traded seats with the kid...:P

[WildcatGirl]

Nevermind kids, I've seen ADULTS on flights who could benefit from the Thorazine suggestion. I think for children over 3, the same rule of thumb goes for planes that goes for stores and resturants...if you haven't taught your children to behave you've given up your right to the privledge of taking them on a plane. Stay at home with the brat you created, hire a sitter or suffer through the car ride...you created the problem...don't force it on others.

That being said, you bring up a whole other point...travelling with children too young to 'know better' and once you get on the plane you don't have the option of 'taking them outside' like you do in a store or eating establishment. I have to say, my children were both old enough to have the foresight to understand that eventually the plane would land and they would again be alone with Mom to not act up...BUT if I were going to be travelling with a child too young to be controlled I certainly wouldn't be above giving them a dose of some sort of cold medicine that would cause them to sleep through the flight for not only my benefit or the benefit of other passengers but that of the child as well.

I'm not someone who advocates this as a general parenting stratagy (though I've known parents who way too often give their children unnecessary medication just to get them to sleep when they want them to, and I think that's a very bad idea)...but seriously, who flies with small children often enough that they would be giving them alot of unnecessary medication? I'm not one to take (or give my children) medicine unless it's absolutely necessary...for many reasons, first I think as a society we overuse things like that and secondly because of the body's tendency to develop tolerances requiring ever increasing dosages to achieve benefit. So I don't advocate giving medicine to children simply for your convienence, but most of the people I know who travel by plane with such young children do so only a couple times a year or less. Considering this, would you rather give your child a dropperful of Benedryl or have them be miserable being confined to such a small area for 2 or 3 hours with popping ears and uncomfortable surroundingsand arrive at your destination with an entire planeful of people stressed out because you chose to travel with your child? Now if you travel regularly with your child, obviously this isn't the answer, you don't want to keep your kid doped up all the time...but if they do it regularly, it's a good bet they will get more used to it and handle it better anyway with some guidance from you.

[capcat]

I'm not sure what the question is, maybe there are two. Should parents take young children on long flights, and/or Do you think it is okay to medicate a child for the purpose of a peaceful flight?

IMO, long flights are sometimes unavoidable. Prayer helps ;). It's hard for me to sit in one place for more than 2 hours, I can sympathize with a 2 year old. I don't know if I'd medicate for submission. It depends on the child. I certainly would in the case of an older child who takes a prescribed med for hyperactivity. I would consider a parent negligent if the child was prone to fluid buildup in the middle ear and the parent failed to havea pediatrician or ENT check for thatprior to the trip.

In any case, I'm generally not botheredwith crying children onflights,butI am bothered bykids who will not stop kicking my seat :dmad:. I like to grab their feet and not let go ;).

[poodoo]

I'm sorry that I missed this thread while it was "happening."

I agree with the posts, completely. QUOTE by calsegs

_______

DITTO. :)Too, you go, girl, Wildcat Girl! :)

As I see it, far too many parents today instead use those "empty threats" and allow their kids to misbehave without suffering consequences. Unfortunately, from what I have read, once three-year- olds learn that they have control of the household (including those restaurant visits!), there are usually some big problems in the teenage years. :(

[Buddah]

Depending on the age of the child, i don't see anything wrong with it. I would hope the parent, depending on the venue, would respect others. SUch as crying in a movie threatre. But if it is a resturant and some infant is crying, i don't see anything wrong with that. most of the time the mother will get up and go to the bathroom in that instance.

[wildcatchick]

Many of today's children are screwed up from parents who are afraid of discipline for whatever reason. They don't receive discipline, the schools can't effectively disipline, and there are no limits b/c people are afraid of stepping over some invisible line. I say if a parent won't discipline a child in public there should be others who are able to do so for the sake of others in the area.

For example, I went to see the new Harry Potter movie for my birthday at the 7:30ish showing. In walk about 10 4th or 5th grade kids who are talking very very loudly about incredibly inappropriate topics. There were other children in that theater being introduced to the idea of "oral sex" as one of the kids began yelling about it. First these kids were much to young to be out in public alone like that IMHO. Second I should not have to leave the theater to track down some kid in a uniform to deal with this issue. The children should have been kicked out of the theater and their parents called and told exactly what there were doing when they were out of their control.

[WildcatGirl]

The sad thing is that even if their parents were called they wouldn't care...after all they are at the theater...so they are out of their hair for the night.