Does anybody remember hearing Tubby after team turmoil say...

[BigBlueTude]

That we would never be without enough depth &scholarship players again? Here we are again with 11 scholarship players, and one that we found up in Alaska coming in late!

We lack identity. We lack a true signature style. We lack talent in two of our four classes. We lack anything that would tell a recruit "Hey this is what Kentucky does"!

I hate to bring up and old venumous name...BUT Rick Pitino ,say what you want to(and I dont say many good things) but does anyone remember the first year that Kansas really bushwhacked us by about 65-70 points in Coach P`s first year?

I listened to that whole game because it was not on t.v. At the end of the game Ralph Hacker or Cawood ask him "Why did you keep pressing when you were down by 50, and they were getting layup after layup". I will remember this to the day I die. Pitino said brashly " Because at Kentucky WE PRESS,THIS IS WHAT WE DOand we will win by pressing"!

I am not saying that style work very well anymore, but you have to have a mantra. You have to say "This is what we do". Tubby used to could say ball-line defense is what we do. We dont do anything well. THAT IS WHY WE DONT RECRUIT WELL!! IMO...:dmad::dmad::dmad:

[catfando]

We were recruiting him before he "just showed up". He didn't just come out of nowhere. And I'll take this years class over any class Tubby has recruited so far. These guys have basketball savy and smarts. I like the direction our recruiting is heading in. I just think Tubby needs to spend more effort and time, drilling the fundamentals into their heads.

[BigBlueTude]

I do agree. I love this class, and I love the Juniors. I think the ship can be righted. It also could head in the direction that it has been heading for the last several years. You have to recruit every year, not every other year. Did you see Kansas and Florida. We cannot match athleticism with these kinds of teams, and that is a direct result of poor recruiting in two of four classes. That is just fact!



I know that we are a tough crowd, but few UK fans are happy with the way things have been.

On ly time will tell if we get it going in the right direction.You do make valid points that I agree with.

[Will Lavender]

BigBlueTude wrote: We cannot match athleticism with these kinds of teams, and that is a direct result of poor recruiting in two of four classes. That is just fact!


I agree, but I'm not sure if athleticism is the most crucial element of the game of basketball.

You can win with skill. Smarts. Determination. Heart.

Problem is, we don't have those things on this team, either. Not yet.

The 2003-04 team, the bunch who won all those games in a row, wasn't that athletic. (They were probably more athletic than this team, but not by much.) They did what they did because they played as a team, and they executed what Tubby wanted them to do. Consequently, they thumped a few teams who were probably more athletic.

If you don't execute, then the glaring problems with how high you can jump or how fast you can run are exposed. That's what's happening right now with these Cats.

I also disagree about depth. I don't necessarily think that depth is a problem with this team. It may become one as the season wears on, but I think playing 10 or 11 guys is enough.

I do agree with you, though, about a "signature." Tubby did say after the UCLA game that we "hang our hats on defense" at Kentucky, but he doesn't say it enough. If we're a slow-down team, then we should slow it down more. If we're a fast-breaking team, then we should fast break more. As it is, we're sort of in this inbetweenland where other teams show us what to do -- how fast or slow to play -- and we play that way.

Over time, that sort of passive mindset will get you beat more times than not when you go up against good teams.

[BigBlueTude]

The 2003-04 team did what in the NCAA Tournament? I believe, and I am not being sarcastic I am just trying to recall that team, lost second round to UAB. Is that the team? Or is that the one that lost to Mich. St. to go to the final four?

You make several great points. You do have to have savy, and I.Q to win as well. I have seen teams (Gonzaga, Vandy in the past, UK in 92,most every Bobby Knight coached team at IU(save 75-76)and I am sure there are many,many more examples) that were not blessed with an abundance of athletes. They won by determination, good ball movement, great spacing, and great fundamentals. I still think in todays game the team that can beat you off the dribble, beat you on the glass, and get in passing lanes,disrupting theopposing offensewith defense wins most games.

We are just not athletic enough at some spots on the floor. The 3 position has a starter that is a mid-major prospect at best. GREAT kid, but Bobby just would not start on many UK teams in the past. Would he have been in the top 12 on the 96` team?He is a starter now! He struggles to guard the other 3, and his shot is sporatic at best. He cannot take anyone off the dribble so if he is not getting shots in the flow of the offense he does not score. Perry Stevenson is just about a year and 15 pounds, and aten foot jump shot to his game to really being a contributor on the offensive end. Thomas & Woo are maybe OVC level players, and I am not sure how much time they get at Eastern.

The 3 & 4 spot are just grossly undertalented. Athletically, Basketball I.Q, fundamentaly, anyway that you want to look at it. I am hoping Harris can produce, and help us out at the 3 right away.

The ship is not sunk. We could still have a nice year. It will be a great coaching job by Tubby to make that happen. I think he can do it though.....

[Will Lavender]

BigBlueTude wrote: The 2003-04 team did what in the NCAA Tournament? I believe, and I am not being sarcastic I am just trying to recall that team, lost second round to UAB. Is that the team? Or is that the one that lost to Mich. St. to go to the final four?



I'm talking about the Suffocats. Bogans' senior year. Maybe it was 02-03?

And I think you're a little harsh on Bobby Perry. You'll not find many "mid-major prospect[s]" who are 6'7" and deadly from beyond the arc. I agree that he's not an All-American, but I think he'd get minutes on most recent Kentucky team, even the very good ones. He needs to get more agressive, surely, but he has tried to do that already in this young season. It'll come.

Of all the players I'm worried about on this team, Bobby Perry isn't one of them. (Unless we're talking defense, and then I'm worried about all of them. :?)

[bret1555]

Will Lavender wrote: BigBlueTude wrote: We cannot match athleticism with these kinds of teams, and that is a direct result of poor recruiting in two of four classes. That is just fact!


I agree, but I'm not sure if athleticism is the most crucial element of the game of basketball.

You can win with skill. Smarts. Determination. Heart.

Problem is, we don't have those things on this team, either. Not yet.

The 2003-04 team, the bunch who won all those games in a row, wasn't that athletic. (They were probably more athletic than this team, but not by much.) They did what they did because they played as a team, and they executed what Tubby wanted them to do. Consequently, they thumped a few teams who were probably more athletic.

If you don't execute, then the glaring problems with how high you can jump or how fast you can run are exposed. That's what's happening right now with these Cats.

I also disagree about depth. I don't necessarily think that depth is a problem with this team. It may become one as the season wears on, but I think playing 10 or 11 guys is enough.

I do agree with you, though, about a "signature." Tubby did say after the UCLA game that we "hang our hats on defense" at Kentucky, but he doesn't say it enough. If we're a slow-down team, then we should slow it down more. If we're a fast-breaking team, then we should fast break more. As it is, we're sort of in this inbetweenland where other teams show us what to do -- how fast or slow to play -- and we play that way.

Over time, that sort of passive mindset will get you beat more times than not when you go up against good teams.







I disagree, Will. . . Sort of:lol:. I think we do have a style & that when played well, our defense leads to lots of points. Offensively,the Catsare a team that must score off turnovers because we stagnate in the half court. I think Tubby has always looked to run off of turnovers. I never understood the perception that "Tubbyball" is a slowdown. The problem is, for whatever reason, our players have not executed the defense well in the last season and an eighth. The guess here, after watching the team, is that it is not a lack of effort. Which means it can, and probably will be, fixed.

[phoenix]

Will Lavender wrote: deadly from beyond the arc.
I know that isn't a reference to Bobby, who are you talking about?

We need one right away. :thumbup

[bret1555]

phoenix wrote: Will Lavender wrote: deadly from beyond the arc.
I know that isn't a reference to Bobby, who are you talking about?

We need one right away. :thumbup

Bobby Perry is a quality shooter. . . Will also stated that he needed to be more aggressive, which I will agree with. Bobby Perry's problem isn't that he can't shoot, it is that he doesn't do it enough.

[BigBlueTude]

I really disagree with him being a quality shooter. Quality shooters are consistent shooters. Perry is a streak shooter in that about four to five games a year he gets hot, and hits most of what he puts up. Beyond that he is very inconsistant,and I think he shot in the mid 30`s for 3`s last year.

He does not score off the dribble much either. As I said before he HAS to get his points in the flow of the offense or he does not score.

He scorched UConn, and he is capable at times of getting very hot. We will see him do that. I will wager a very friendly UK fan wager that Perry shoots in the mid 30`s from 3 again. He will average when it is all said and done about7.8 to8.5 points a game, about 3.9 rebounds a game and shoot about 68% from the free-throw. He will have his four games where he is great, his four to six games where he is good, his six to eight where he is average and the rest below average. Right now he is all we have at the 3. I am really hoping Harris gives him a push!

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: Will Lavender wrote: deadly from beyond the arc.
I know that isn't a reference to Bobby, who are you talking about?

We need one right away. :thumbup

Well, I should have qualified it to, "Bobby has the potential to be deadly from behind the arc."

He's at 33% right now. I'd be surprised if he's any lower than 35% at the end of the season, which is above average for a big wing player. He's an AMAZING shooter in practice, and he has excellent form on his shot. That's got to count for something.

And both Joe and Ramel are over 35% from 3. I don't expect that to stay there as the season goes on, but they're both formidable -- and Joe is even, at times, "deadly" -- shooters.

I just think that's not our problem right now. It's certainly not Bobby's. We need defenders, ASAP.

[keycat41]

BigBlueTude wrote: That we would never be without enough depth &scholarship players again? Here we are again with 11 scholarship players, and one that we found up in Alaska coming in late!

We lack identity. We lack a true signature style. We lack talent in two of our four classes. We lack anything that would tell a recruit "Hey this is what Kentucky does"!

I hate to bring up and old venumous name...BUT Rick Pitino ,say what you want to(and I dont say many good things) but does anyone remember the first year that Kansas really bushwhacked us by about 65-70 points in Coach P`s first year?

I listened to that whole game because it was not on t.v. At the end of the game Ralph Hacker or Cawood ask him "Why did you keep pressing when you were down by 50, and they were getting layup after layup". I will remember this to the day I die. Pitino said brashly " Because at Kentucky WE PRESS,THIS IS WHAT WE DOand we will win by pressing"!

I am not saying that style work very well anymore, but you have to have a mantra. You have to say "This is what we do". Tubby used to could say ball-line defense is what we do. We dont do anything well. THAT IS WHY WE DONT RECRUIT WELL!! IMO...:dmad::dmad::dmad:



I agree 100% especially with the we don't have a mantra. It is almost sickening to watch Tubby try to counter every move of the opposing team instead of having a style that has to be countered by other teams. That is what separates the goods from the bads and the greats from the goods. You don't see North Carolina sitting Hansborough because the team they are playing is running 5 guards. Instead you see a steady dose of big man dominating little man until the little man fouls out or the opposing coach changes his strategy. As much as I hate to say it, the Cats need to abandon the recent attempts at run and gun and focus on defense, defense, defense. Creating more turnovers and getting more rebounded missed shots will lead to points.The teams that were lead by Bogans and Prince would defend teams until they gave up. I haven't seen a team shoot in the low 30% range against the Cats in a few years now. I enjoyed seeing that more than watching these guys clang a bunch of 3 pointers.

[RaleighCat]

Actually, UKand Tubby Smithhave a mantra- DEFENSE. Unfortunately, hanging yourhat on Defense alone doesn't sell the program very well. UK isn't a high-flying sexy media darling Sports Center friendly program. Not like UNC, Dook, FL, UConn, AZ, etc. Michigan State is probably the closest in terms of overall style and philosophy (by reputation, anyway). And they've got us beat in Final Fours 4-1 since '98.

IMHO, elite recruits want to play somewhere they can run n' score, have freedom on offense, get minutes immediately, compete for a championship and (for many of them)develop into Lottery Picks. Some of this happens at UK, but it's not what we're known for. When kids watch us play, what do they see?

The foundation is there, the pieces are there, we're not far away. Playing well in Chapel Hill would go a long way to show Kentucky is a program back on track.

[Will Lavender]

RaleighCat wrote: Actually, UKand Tubby Smithhave a mantra- DEFENSE. Unfortunately, hanging yourhat on Defense alone doesn't sell the program very well. UK isn't a high-flying sexy media darling Sports Center friendly program. Not like UNC, Dook, FL, UConn, AZ, etc. Michigan State is probably the closest in terms of overall style and philosophy (by reputation, anyway). And they've got us beat in Final Fours 4-1 since '98.

IMHO, elite recruits want to play somewhere they can run n' score, have freedom on offense, get minutes immediately, compete for a championship and (for many of them)develop into Lottery Picks. Some of this happens at UK, but it's not what we're known for. When kids watch us play, what do they see?

The foundation is there, the pieces are there, we're not far away. Playing well in Chapel Hill would go a long way to show Kentucky is a program back on track.

I agree with you.

But both Izzo, who you mention, and Ben Howland have done well getting recruits into a defense-oriented style.

[RCS]

GT is a very defensive oriented team also, granted, more a pressing D. They are not good on offense and spend most of their time learning D. Paul Hewitt is a deflections are key kind of coach and recruits, teaches and practices that. He has been an outstanding recruiter and has beat UK for two top 10 forwards in the past 2 years. As always, it is a combo of a lot of things. I think a fast tempo makes it easier to recruit, but is not the only thing.

[RaleighCat]

RCS wrote: GT is a very defensive oriented team also, granted, more a pressing D. They are not good on offense and spend most of their time learning D. Paul Hewitt is a deflections are key kind of coach and recruits, teaches and practices that. He has been an outstanding recruiter and has beat UK for two top 10 forwards in the past 2 years. As always, it is a combo of a lot of things. I think a fast tempo makes it easier to recruit, but is not the only thing.Georgia Tech played for the NC a couple of seasons ago and has produced a couple of lottery picks (Bosh, Jack). Yes, Hewitt is a defensive-minded coach, but they also run and dunk on people. GT has been a very athletic team top-to-bottom under Hewitt.
(Oh, and GT is also supposedly an extremely hard academic institution. At least it's perceived to have higher than average admission standards).

[ukwebfan]

I am bored to death over similar type statements when in my view Rick pressed us right out of a National Championship vs Arizona. And although I really, really love 2 out of our last 3 recruiting classes, if you keep writing the negatives long enough, someone out there will buy into it.:shrug:

BigBlueTude wrote: I listened to that whole game because it was not on t.v. At the end of the game Ralph Hacker or Cawood ask him "Why did you keep pressing when you were down by 50, and they were getting layup after layup". I will remember this to the day I die. Pitino said brashly " Because at Kentucky WE PRESS,THIS IS WHAT WE DOand we will win by pressing"!

I am not saying that style work very well anymore, but you have to have a mantra. You have to say "This is what we do". Tubby used to could say ball-line defense is what we do. We dont do anything well. THAT IS WHY WE DONT RECRUIT WELL!! IMO...:dmad::dmad::dmad:

[BigBlueTude]

BINGO WILL! They are selling their programs just fine!

Why are we not??

[blueheretic]

I don't understand this.

Tubby supposedly recruits players for their defensive ability/potential, yet, has no quality defensive players on his team? No great defenders?

That is mind boggling.

What is he doing?

I dont understand Tubby Smith.

[VIIBanners]

blueheretic wrote: I don't understand this.

Tubby supposedly recruits players for their defensive ability/potential, yet, has no quality defensive players on his team? No great defenders?

That is mind boggling.

What is he doing?

I dont understand Tubby Smith.


Jodie Meeks is a great defender. Jasper, Stevenson, Crawford, Bradley and Porter are GOOD. But we have atleast one Great D player.

[VIIBanners]

ukwebfan wrote: I am bored to death over similar type statements when in my view Rick pressed us right out of a National Championship vs Arizona. And although I really, really love 2 out of our last 3 recruiting classes, if you keep writing the negatives long enough, someone out there will buy into it.:shrug:

BigBlueTude wrote: I listened to that whole game because it was not on t.v. At the end of the game Ralph Hacker or Cawood ask him "Why did you keep pressing when you were down by 50, and they were getting layup after layup". I will remember this to the day I die. Pitino said brashly " Because at Kentucky WE PRESS,THIS IS WHAT WE DOand we will win by pressing"!

I am not saying that style work very well anymore, but you have to have a mantra. You have to say "This is what we do". Tubby used to could say ball-line defense is what we do. We dont do anything well. THAT IS WHY WE DONT RECRUIT WELL!! IMO...:dmad::dmad::dmad:
I kind of agree with TUde here except for the last sentence. It is a theory but I don't think anyone knows why. I don't think anyone can say we don't recruit well overall... we just don't recruit well at PF, everywhere else is about as good as your gonna get. It is a theory but I don't think anyone knows why.

We do need an identity though for sure. Defense is still sort of our calling card, but not as much as in years past. I think if we land a good class this year and the seniors go onto their after-UK-lives... we will be a solid team with fewer "WTF's:shock::shrug:" on the court.

[BigBlueTude]

UKwebfan ...Someone has already bought into this. We are gettingbeaten on the recruiting trail most years by the power teams (Dukes, UNC, UCLA`a, Ohio States)



If you cannot see that we are sliding, then you are deceiving yourself. It is not beyond repair though. We are a Patrick Patterson away from being a very,very good team.

If you read my post, I was not comparing Tubby`s style to Rp`s. I was saying Rick stuck with his style win or lose (usually win). Yes, the press hurt us against Arizona, but it got us there didnt it? The style has changed, and I have serious doubts that style works anymore. I like Tubby ball. The slower pace does not bother me. The lack of recruiting year in and year out does. You cannot recruit every other year, and expect to compete with the big dogs...which if you are Kentucky you should be doing every year! When you have Bobby Perry as your 3, and Thomas as our 4 you are outmanned against most top 20 teams. THAT is a lack in recruiting....

[blueheretic]

VIIBanners wrote: blueheretic wrote: I don't understand this.

Tubby supposedly recruits players for their defensive ability/potential, yet, has no quality defensive players on his team? No great defenders?

That is mind boggling.

What is he doing?

I dont understand Tubby Smith.


Jodie Meeks is a great defender. Jasper, Stevenson, Crawford, Bradley and Porter are GOOD. But we have atleast one Great D player.


So you are saying that Tubby has one great defender on this team...AND it's a FROSH?