Larry Coker - Tubby Smith Parallels?

[FrogtownRoadCat]

What do you think? Nice, gentlemanly guys, who each took over a program on top and, due to overall poor recruiting and evaluation of talent, watchedit decline from national prominence. Each coach has also seen his program experience more than its fair share of off the court/field issues (disciplinary and otherwise).

Coach Coker said today that he's seen the thrill of a championship and the joy of a program on top, and that the joy just isn't there at Miami anymore and won't be for as long as he's around. He essentially said further thathe's confidentthesuccess, and accompanying joy,will return, but that a fresh approach under fresh leadership is warranted.

This season is probably do-or-die (metaphorically speaking) for Coach Smith in my opinion. I'm not saying that he'll leave or that he'll be forced out after this season. I'm saying that another double digit loss season, multiple blow outs, and another poor tournament showing will cause the joy Coach Coker spoke of to be gone from Lexington for as long as Coach Smith is still around. A large (very large, in fact) segment of the fan base already feels that way, although I'm sure many of you do not.

Is this parallel off base?

[Prince21]

There are definitely some similarities, but I don't recall any bench-clearing brawls under Tubby. Miami always seemed to have something going wrong for them off the field.

[BigBlue41042]

FrogtownRoadCat wrote: What do you think? Nice, gentlemanly guys, who each took over a program on top and, due to overall poor recruiting and evaluation of talent, watchedit decline from national prominence. Each coach has also seen his program experience more than its fair share of off the court/field issues (disciplinary and otherwise).

Coach Coker said today that he's seen the thrill of a championship and the joy of a program on top, and that the joy just isn't there at Miami anymore and won't be for as long as he's around. He essentially said further thathe's confidentthesuccess, and accompanying joy,will return, but that a fresh approach under fresh leadership is warranted.

This season is probably do-or-die (metaphorically speaking) for Coach Smith in my opinion. I'm not saying that he'll leave or that he'll be forced out after this season. I'm saying that another double digit loss season, multiple blow outs, and another poor tournament showing will cause the joy Coach Coker spoke of to be gone from Lexington for as long as Coach Smith is still around. A large (very large, in fact) segment of the fan base already feels that way, although I'm sure many of you do not.

Is this parallel off base?


No, I actually thought the same thing watching the press conference. I've always liked Tubby, and I've never had a real problem with his style of play, but there comes a time when you have to evaluate the direction your program is going.

I hope Tubby comes through this year, because I think a little success will turn things around in a hurry; however, if we suffer through another subparseason and couple that with another disappointing recruiting year(hasn't happened yet, but it still might), then some tough decisions need to be made. I really think Tubby knows that.

[DCWildcat]

I think if Tubby presided over everything Coker has, he would've resigned a long time ago. The brawl was one thing, but the shootout in the summer, plus this kid's murder only a few weeks ago, are far and above anything Tubby's been through.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

Don't focus on the severity of each coach's off the court/field issues. Consider the decline from elite status and the relative lack of excitement and presence of frustration surrounding the programs based upon the on the court/field performances. Then tell me what you think.

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

I guessing there's a little more "excitement" these days for Uk basketball than miami football. But yes, there are similarities.

I do agree that this year is "get it done or have alot of Cat fans on your butt" for Tubby. I love the guy and have supported him big time since Saul left but another down year and I'm off the wagon myself.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

Excerpts from Miami U's AD's presser:

"There were a lot of issues, but certainly the direction the program was going was certainly one," Dee said. "I wouldn't say that was totally it, but if you want to look in that direction, that was one. There were disappointments. There were opportunities, I think, to play better and we didn't. It all comes to the head coach."

[FatCatDaddy]

It is time for tubby to do the manly thing and step down. He is just like Coker, not able to handle an elite program. They both are very good coaches, but they are not ELITE coaches.

[Stretch]

I don't know your definition of "elite coach" but Tubby won more games than anybody from 2002-03 through 2004-05 and was one play in double OT from the Final Four as recently as '05. How many other coaches have made the NCAA tournament 13 years in a row, made the Sweet Sixteen six of the last eight years and made the Sweet Sixteen as the coach of three different programs?

[I. Melvin]

Froggy just hit one on the screws.

This is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

[KapitalCat]

Stretch wrote: I don't know your definition of "elite coach" but Tubby won more games than anybody from 2002-03 through 2004-05 and was one play in double OT from the Final Four as recently as '05. How many other coaches have made the NCAA tournament 13 years in a row, made the Sweet Sixteen six of the last eight years and made the Sweet Sixteen as the coach of three different programs?

It's the reasons you stated that Tubby deserves the opportunity to build the program back to Final Four status. Two years ago we were there, today we are not. Since Jan 2006, KY is 16-12. Unfortunately, fans (me included) have short term memories. The bottom line though is that Tubby needs to follow up last years class with an equal or better class. He isn't there yet, but if Moses, Patterson, and Lucas are on next years roster, the Cats will be knocking on the final four door.

[Will Lavender]

It's almost impossible to compare footbal and basketball. Coker has had 3 losses in two of the last three seasons. Three losses basically eliminates a college football team from national championship consideration.

The good thing about college basketball is that you are never eliminated from championship consideration until you're beaten in the tournament. Thus, the idea of what "elite" is is completely different.

I would say a team who wins the most games in America andgoes to two Elite 8s over the same time Coker was losing 3 games a year is "contending." And thus "elite."

I would also say that, if at the end of this season, UK again has double digit losses and again suffers a flame-out in the NCAA Tournament sometime before the Sweet Sixteen, that you would have to take a cold, hard look at Tubby Smith.

And I think that will happen.

[Deep Blue]

I also see similarities to Denny Crum, the later years.

[Will Lavender]

Deep Blue wrote: I also see similarities to Denny Crum, the later years.
Crum's problem was never Xs and Os; it was recruiting.

Crum didn't recruit a class like our current freshman for the last seven or eight years of his career.

[jdeasy]

Stretch wrote: I don't know your definition of "elite coach" but Tubby won more games than anybody from 2002-03 through 2004-05 and was one play in double OT from the Final Four as recently as '05. How many other coaches have made the NCAA tournament 13 years in a row, made the Sweet Sixteen six of the last eight years and made the Sweet Sixteen as the coach of three different programs?


We did not win more games than anyone else from 03 thru 05, Illinois did. As far as making the tounament, that's a given for a program like UK now with 65 teams getting in. Too many coachs have the sweet sixteen at more than one school to even count.



tubby took over a program that was on the mountaintop. 10 years into his tenure here, we are just happy to be ranked in the top 25 and glorifying making the NCAA field of 65.



There is a split among the fanbase that will not heal as long as tubby remains at UK. Some of the folks on each side of the argument have it so personal that the split will never heal for them.

It's past time for tubby to leave UK. The only question now is just how bad will it get before he leaves

[I. Melvin]

Nothing a little taste of the Final Four and a Patrick Patterson signing won't cure. (Not asking for much, am I?)

jd&ez wrote:

There is a split among the fanbase that will not heal as long as tubby remains at UK. Some of the folks on each side of the argument have it so personal that the split will never heal for them.

[Will Lavender]

jd&ez wrote: Stretch wrote: I don't know your definition of "elite coach" but Tubby won more games than anybody from 2002-03 through 2004-05 and was one play in double OT from the Final Four as recently as '05. How many other coaches have made the NCAA tournament 13 years in a row, made the Sweet Sixteen six of the last eight years and made the Sweet Sixteen as the coach of three different programs?

There is a split among the fanbase that will not heal as long as tubby remains at UK. Some of the folks on each side of the argument have it so personal that the split will never heal for them.



I'm not sure Tubby can control any of this. He could win the rest of his games or lose the rest of his games and the people you're talking about wouldn't budge an inch. It'll be the same way with any coach who follows Tubby: we know so much about things now because of the internet severe grudges -- or severe love affairs -- with coaches are formed.

You can't just run a coach out based on a bunch of unobjective fans. Some great coaches would have been removed if this were the standard. Billy Donovan's probably one of them.

And what percentage of the fanbase are you talking about here? I'd say 2, 3%.

I think we have to wait and assess this season. This is huge for Tubby (or, as you say, tubby) and I think many who are objective knew that before the season began. You can't assess a season two weeks in; that's like assessing a movie after the opening credits.

I said last year that I thought Tubby was losing it a little. Yet I saw this team practice and was given renewed hope. My hope has not worn off after two loses in the Maui Invitational. It's certainly been stretched, but it's still there.

We can talk all we want in the meaningless Internet ether, but any discussion about firings should happen in April, not in November.

[Doug Hardin]

The biggest difference between Coker and Tubby is that Coker has been steadily declining with no up-turn in his success. He won the national title in his first year, followed that up with an undefeated regular season and another trip to the national title game. This year they were a .500 team and almost missed a bowl bid altogether. The years between now and 2002 (to the best of my recollection; I'm not looking at records here) indicate a steady decline from '02 through '06.

Tubby's teams started out with a bang like Coker's (national title in '98, Elite Eight in '99). They then had a comparatively rough stretch from 2000-'02 (the 10-loss seasons). But then, unlike Coker'sMiami teams, theyrebounded with 3 great seasons from '03-'05, followed by last year's disappointment.

So I don't know what the appropriate football coach analogy is here, if there is one.

[Spanish Moss]

I. Melvin wrote: Nothing a little taste of the Final Four and a Patrick Patterson signing won't cure. (Not asking for much, am I?)

jd&ez wrote:

There is a split among the fan base that will not heal as long as tubby remains at UK. Some of the folks on each side of the argument have it so personal that the split will never heal for them.




Our football team is going to a bowl. Expecting the basketball team to sign a 5 star power forward and return to the Final Four after nearly a decade of watching on TV is not too much to expect from the winnest program in college basketball.

So I join you in asking for these "minor accomplishments" to become a reality. It would go a long way in restoring confidence in our fractured fan base.

[jdeasy]

Will Lavender wrote: jd&ez wrote: Stretch wrote: I don't know your definition of "elite coach" but Tubby won more games than anybody from 2002-03 through 2004-05 and was one play in double OT from the Final Four as recently as '05. How many other coaches have made the NCAA tournament 13 years in a row, made the Sweet Sixteen six of the last eight years and made the Sweet Sixteen as the coach of three different programs?

There is a split among the fanbase that will not heal as long as tubby remains at UK. Some of the folks on each side of the argument have it so personal that the split will never heal for them.



I'm not sure Tubby can control any of this. He could win the rest of his games or lose the rest of his games and the people you're talking about wouldn't budge an inch. It'll be the same way with any coach who follows Tubby: we know so much about things now because of the internet severe grudges -- or severe love affairs -- with coaches are formed.

You can't just run a coach out based on a bunch of unobjective fans. Some great coaches would have been removed if this were the standard. Billy Donovan's probably one of them.

And what percentage of the fanbase are you talking about here? I'd say 2, 3%.

I think we have to wait and assess this season. This is huge for Tubby (or, as you say, tubby) and I think many who are objective knew that before the season began. You can't assess a season two weeks in; that's like assessing a movie after the opening credits.

I said last year that I thought Tubby was losing it a little. Yet I saw this team practice and was given renewed hope. My hope has not worn off after two loses in the Maui Invitational. It's certainly been stretched, but it's still there.

We can talk all we want in the meaningless Internet ether, but any discussion about firings should happen in April, not in November.

I agree that the % of the ones that it won't heal for is small. But, it's there. For the most part, any new coach will unite the fanbase. How long that unity lasts will be based on performance.

Even so, there are some fans that I will never get along with under any circumstance for the tings I have been called, racist, the primary one.



I've always gotten along with many on the opposite side of the coach debate. You, Wil, for one. You have never taken it a disrespectful personal level. There are many that haven't. There are many that have. I've been clahellenged to fights. I've had my hometown made fun of, I've had my family attacked. All by people that agree with me about Tubby.



I have always maintained that Tubby is a good coach. He is just not right for UK. It takes that special something to thrive as UK's coach and he just doesn't have it. Now, recruiting is beginning to suffer. Even if he were as great as some of his supporters claim him to be, he cannot succeed without the players. Rupp has been quoted as saying, "you can't win the Ky Derby with a mule". That is just as true today as it was in Rupp's time.

[KY Native in IN]

i agree this season is do or die for tubby....i hope all the pieces come together and in march we hit the final four with all guns blazing and pull out #8, and i hope it happens under tubby's reign...he's a good man (don't know him only going from what i hear about him from media, other coaches etc.)....it'd be good to see him go out on a HIGH note like a FF or another NC....but look at Joe B., he just stepped down, made the decision it was time to let it go and move on....he was under demanding scrutiny of the fans, etc and didn't leave hating and despising UK b-ball...he seems to still love the Cats and the program despite the microscope he was under....because he knows it's not HIS program, he's only a big link in a big chain...it's not tubby's program...he's only a big link in a big chain...but sometimes it's just time to move on...but heck the years just started...tubby does not deserve to suffer for one crappy season, let;s see how thus season pans out....and hope we don't get destroyed by all the teams that matter and not get shutout by vandy...:shock:

[RCS]

The things is, this team is a couple of solid forwards from a top 10 team. That is of course Tubby's fault, but if we sign Stewart, Moses and Patterson and Moriss stays, this is a top 5 team and on of the favorites to win it all. That is part of what is so frustrating. We have seen this coming for 2-3 years now. Tubby has to have a solid recruting class this year. Our needs have been very apparent and we have not filled them for whatever reason. That has to stop.

I hate to do it, but can you imagine this team with Hansbourough and Morris in the middle? We would be unbelievable. Tubby has to start closing the deal on some of these forwards.

[poodoo]

RCS wrote: The things is, this team is a couple of solid forwards from a top 10 team. That is of course Tubby's fault, but if we sign Stewart, Moses and Patterson and Moriss stays, this is a top 5 team and on of the favorites to win it all. That is part of what is so frustrating. We have seen this coming for 2-3 years now. Tubby has to have a solid recruting class this year. Our needs have been very apparent and we have not filled them for whatever reason. That has to stop.

I hate to do it, but can you imagine this team with Hansbourough and Morris in the middle? We would be unbelievable. Tubby has to start closing the deal on some of these forwards.

While I refuse to respond to some of the comments in this thread, this post has some excellent points. Reading Brandon Wright's stats in the last couple of games, I can also imagine this team with Morris and Wright in the middle. We would then indeed be an "unbelievable" team, in my opinion. I have felt that some of the difference we saw in Tubby's demeanorlast season was his attempting to deal not only with the loss of Chuck Hayes and the unexpected loss of Azubuike (and Morris for half of the season), but also the recruiting loss of Brandon Wright, who Tubby had been so sure would be a Cat. Losing Hansborough the previous season hurt last year's team, and the disappointing, surprising loss of Wright is definitely hurting this season, besides perhaps having an emotional effect on Tubby Smith last season. Just my humble opinion on the matter.