Serious Pitino discussion..

[Dr. H Lecter]

Although the size of the crowd is no doubt dwindling, I am sure there are stilla few in our midst wholong for Rick Pitino on the sidelines at Rupp. I exited that crowd back in the summer of '97 but I digress.Much of the criticism of OTS still is based onPitino nostalgia; a longing for the glory days of 96-98 when we were a fixture in the NCAA title game. Its hard to forget that excitement.

But those days are gone and I believe so are the days of the magnificent Rick Pitino. I've said for a long time that UofL did not get the "UK Pitino." No, they got what I like to call Boston Rick,the failed NBA Coach, and not the hottest young coach in the land that UK made into a legend.

Folks...thankfully he aint getting it done there. I really believe that the game has passed him by. Dayton? Come now. Is a loss to Dayton something that is worth $2Mil per season. Their team looks seriously NIT bound again. Yet some of my UK brothers still long for him to be our coach.

Can someone explain why? Can you explain why you believe Boston Rick is still the same guy who UK turned into a legend. Why is it that you think he has not stayed too long and should have quit while on top.

My guess is he'll stay too long at LilBro and they'll allow him to because they will never admit that they made a BIG mistake. Their fans will never admit they didn't get their moneys worth. They will never admit that they treated their own legend Denny Crum very very badly just to get a piece of our glory. I suppose it was worth it to them just to see us eat our own and to see our reaction.

Maybe the tide has turned and we all can finally be over him. Once and for all....good riddance. You know...I don't see any of those "Got Pitino" shirts around town any more. I wonder why.

[UKS2H]

They were in the Final Four 2 seasons ago and their 5-star recruit is suspended. Don't get too excited by the loss tonight there, buddy.

[catman05]

Pitino is a has-been, NIT wash-up. I could think of dozens of coaches I would rather be here than Pitino.

[DenCat]

My take on Pitino is this. When he came to UK, the style of play his teams played was out of the norm. Notmany played a "run and gun" game and no one was prepared to defend it. The name Kentucky still put fear into some opponents. Thus he was able to recruit the type of players needed for his system. Kids also seen it as a good way to get to the NBA. Inevitably the NBA came calling and he finally took the job in Boston. His successhere didn't translate into success in the NBA and he got canned. Various things happened in his personal life that made him "rethink" his priorities. He seemed to have lost the most of the fire in his coaching. The style of play his teams played here, is now played by many teams. Also, other teams have been playing against it for a whileand can now better defend it.

Some people say since he brought UK back to greatness, he is the greatest coach out there. I tend to think that the name "Kentucky" hadsomething to do with it and UK did as much for him as he did for UK.

[lribookend]

DenCat wrote: My take on Pitino is this. When he came to UK, the style of play his teams played was out of the norm. Notmany played a "run and gun" game and no one was prepared to defend it. The name Kentucky still put fear into some opponents. Thus he was able to recruit the type of players needed for his system. Kids also seen it as a good way to get to the NBA. Inevitably the NBA came calling and he finally took the job in Boston. His successhere didn't translate into success in the NBA and he got canned. Various things happened in his personal life that made him "rethink" his priorities. He seemed to have lost the most of the fire in his coaching. The style of play his teams played here, is now played by many teams. Also, other teams have been playing against it for a whileand can now better defend it.

Some people say since he brought UK back to greatness, he is the greatest coach out there. I tend to think that the name "Kentucky" hadsomething to do with it and UK did as much for him as he did for UK.


Dencat, I agree. Timing is critically important, and often overlooked as a factor in the success or failure of coaches. Pitino was the right man, at the right time, at the right place when he came to Kentucky. I also thought he had an excellent chance to be just as successful when he went to Uof L. His Final Four run a couple years ago seemed to reinforce that idea. I still think he knows basketball, and Istill think his system can be extremely successful.....but only if he getsenough of the right kind of players with the right attitude. He needs players who are tall andquick and athletic enough to press and recover, he needsplayers who can shoot the 3 consistently well. He needs playerswith a huge heart who won't quit or slow down when the shots are notfalling. He needs players who will battle every minute, fight for every loose ball, play like each game is their last. When he doesn'tget enough of those types of players, hebecomes a fairly ordinary kind of coach with moderate success.

OTS is another coach who can be very successful when he has superior athletes, as he did in '98. More rare is the coach who is consistently successful even when the talent level ofsome individual team members is not that great, but through superior coaching, they become a great team. Tubby achieved that a few years ago with Fitch, Daniels, Hawkins, Hayes, but has since found it difficult to repeat, justlike Pitino is experiencing at UofL.

While they are both great coaches who achieved above average success at some point in their careers, the question that no one can seem to agree on is whether the timing is right for Pitino at UofL, or forTubby at UK? If itisn't, fans can expect to see their teams doreasonably well, but maybe fail to win their own conference championships, not to mention failing to reach the Final Four.

In order toreach the highest level of success in NCAA basketball, the timing must be right for the coach. The timing was right for Coach K whenhe went to Duke. The timing was right for Roy Williams when he went to UNC. The timing was right for Billy Donovan when he went to UF. The timing was right for Bruce Pearl when he went to UT. Maybe the timing is right for different leadership at UK and UofL? If not,shouldn't weexpect toeventually see superior teams once again when the teams are not(Fill in the blank)young /inexperienced /injured)?Eventually those explanations will fail to satisfy any but the most ardent supporters. I don't think the question is whether or not Pitino orSmith are great coaches. The question should be whether they are the right coaches at the right place at this time.

[FatCatDaddy]

I think the name Kentucky helped him recruit. I don't think he can recruit as well at Louisville. I can't say much about the guy though he has been to the final more recently than our coach.

[delkfor3]

DenCat wrote: My take on Pitino is this. When he came to UK, the style of play his teams played was out of the norm. Notmany played a "run and gun" game and no one was prepared to defend it. The name Kentucky still put fear into some opponents. Thus he was able to recruit the type of players needed for his system. Kids also seen it as a good way to get to the NBA. Inevitably the NBA came calling and he finally took the job in Boston. His successhere didn't translate into success in the NBA and he got canned. Various things happened in his personal life that made him "rethink" his priorities. He seemed to have lost the most of the fire in his coaching. The style of play his teams played here, is now played by many teams. Also, other teams have been playing against it for a whileand can now better defend it.

Some people say since he brought UK back to greatness, he is the greatest coach out there. I tend to think that the name "Kentucky" hadsomething to do with it and UK did as much for him as he did for UK.

Dennis, you took the words right out of my mouth. If Tubby were to leave at seasons end, and Pitino "walked through that door" I do not believe that he'd have the success that he had in the late 90's. The game passes many coaches by, it passed Denny Crum by, it passed Bobby Knight by and it may very well have passed RP by. Time will tell for sure.:idea:

[UKcat]

He was a fabulous coach when he was here; he and U.K. were good for one another. He failed at Boston and I was sorry for him and them. It broke my heart to watch him go to Loserville so smugly; I will be glad if he fails there, but I would much rather have him now, here, than who we do have. Do I want him back now after he went to Louisville? NO!!! Would I have taken him back when he left Boston?? YOU BET!

[KapitalCat]

UKS2H wrote: They were in the Final Four 2 seasons ago and their 5-star recruit is suspended. Don't get too excited by the loss tonight there, buddy.

You're right, he has taken a team to the final four within the past few years. However, I do agree that Pitino is not the coach he was and a bit of the luster has worn of and I would not want him back as a coach.

The Pitino comparisons are wearing down, it took Joe Hall a long time to shed the Rupp comparions (if he ever did). The problem with KY basketball today and most fans in general is the short term memory. Do you know KY's record since the calendar year bagan? Since Jan 1, 2006, KY is 16-12.

[DenCat]

delkfor3 wrote: Dennis, you took the words right out of my mouth. If Tubby were to leave at seasons end, and Pitino "walked through that door" I do not believe that he'd have the success that he had in the late 90's. The game passes many coaches by, it passed Denny Crum by, it passed Bobby Knight by and it may very well have passed RP by. Time will tell for sure.:idea:
I wouldn't say the game has passed him by as much as it has caught up to him. He will have some amount of success at his present school. IMO it will never be equal to the success he enjoyed at UK.

[CATHYnKY]

DenCat wrote: delkfor3 wrote: Dennis, you took the words right out of my mouth. If Tubby were to leave at seasons end, and Pitino "walked through that door" I do not believe that he'd have the success that he had in the late 90's. The game passes many coaches by, it passed Denny Crum by, it passed Bobby Knight by and it may very well have passed RP by. Time will tell for sure.:idea:
I wouldn't say the game has passed him by as much as it has caught up to him. He will have some amount of success at his present school. IMO it will never be equal to the success he enjoyed at UK.
I think he realizes that DenCat.

[Spanish Moss]

UKS2H wrote: They were in the Final Four 2 seasons ago and their 5-star recruit is suspended. Don't get too excited by the loss tonight there, buddy.

I am always excited when Pitino loses. I am reminded that he has won a championship only at Kentucky. If he wins at another school, then I will give him credit. Unitl that time I will thank him for a job well done at UK and wish him a Merry Christmas.

Four coaches have won titles at Kentucky. One coach has won a title at UL Kentucky was on the map before Pitino drove into town.

[Dr. H Lecter]

First of all, lots of teams make it to the final four only to lose immediately. Nobody remembers the total number of unrequited F4 visits for a program like UK or UCLA or IU. Just the ones where you bring home the big trophy.

The right answer is this.

He was a great coach at UK because he had UK to bring him great players!

This is not the case at UofL because UofL does not carry the same mystique as UK, Duke,UNC, KU and maybe UCLA.Beyond that the NBA situation has made it impossible to keep players beyond a year after a NCAA championship. (Tell that one to Billy D).

Pitino teams must be on "Cruise Control." What I mean is that Pitino's system is/was PLAYER driven because he is not COACHING driven.He is not/wasnot a good bench coach. If you remember we would beat people by 30 points a game. Equal talent means he will lose as often as he wins.

They are in the Big East now. No more CUSA for him to build a cushion of wins. In fact as we saw last season he can easily be dumbed into the cellar.

The right answer is that UK was the best fit for him and it came in the right time in college hoops. That time is past.

[wanderingcat]

As long as Pitino was perceived as a coach who could prepare recruits for the NBA he had a mystique that helped him recruit. His first run through at the NBA did not hurt him, but his lack of success as Boston took the sheen off. He is still a great coach, but "he ain't got the same magic." Plus, younger guys who can sell their program as being about the here and now as compared to the then and there, are moving in. And, there are better players flying under the radar which make recruiting all the more difficult. See Butler

[Caveman Catfan]

UKS2H wrote: They were in the Final Four 2 seasons ago and their 5-star recruit is suspended. Don't get too excited by the loss tonight there, buddy.
Buddy?

[Spanish Moss]

Dr. H Lector you speak the truth.

It has been over a decade since Ricky won an NCAA title. Today's high school players were in grade school. The foreign players were still in Europe and Africa and probably don't know he coached at UK. Since that time he has failed miserably at Boston and took a job at a school that is confined to the borders of one county in Kentucky.

Oh, how great the fall and the magic that he had in a bottle during the 90's is gone.

[Caveman Catfan]

FatCatDaddy wrote: I think the name Kentucky helped him recruit. I don't think he can recruit as well at Louisville. I can't say much about the guy though he has been to the final more recently than our coach.

Masiello and his assistants are very capable recruiters, comparing very well with any assistants in the country when it comes to recruiting. RP is still a master recruiter. The freshman class at UL would be welcome at any program in the country. AND, they are in with sophs and juniors already that rank very high, setting them up well for the future. I don't think Pitino needs the UK moniker and tradition to make him a very good recruiter.

Most good coaches can win with exceptional talent. I think the days of RP winning with less than exceptional talent are over, because I do not think there are many teams that get rattled by the Pitino fullcourt pressure anymore. The uniqueness of his game has faded, but give him top flight talent that will work hard, and he willbe back at the top of the game.

[Caveman Catfan]

wanderingcat wrote: As long as Pitino was perceived as a coach who could prepare recruits for the NBA he had a mystique that helped him recruit.

Yes. AND, the guy could sell a Pinto to a car wealthy enthusiast.

[boomdaddy]

UKcat wrote: He was a fabulous coach when he was here; he and U.K. were good for one another. He failed at Boston and I was sorry for him and them. It broke my heart to watch him go to Loserville so smugly; I will be glad if he fails there, but I would much rather have him now, here, than who we do have. Do I want him back now after he went to Louisville? NO!!! Would I have taken him back when he left Boston?? YOU BET!

I have to disagree, regarding the "fab coach" tag. What made him successful at UK was his recruiting of great players and getting them to share the spotlight. But, getting the top players to even come to colege for a year or two, much less be a team player, is a huge task in today's times.

With all of his accomplishments, few people bring up the championship that never was, when he pulled the scholly offer from Travis Best andchose the transferTravis Ford instead. If Best would have played with Mashburn, UK would have had a championship sooner.

[BigBlue75]

I was upset when Pitino left for the NBA, like I think we all were to some degree or another. And I was shocked when he returned to coach Louisville, to say the least. However, I'm not a UK fan who despises the ground he walks on. To me, He is what he is: The head basketball coach at the University of Louisville. He is NOT my enemy.

I've always had two feelings about him when I think about him as a coach. Rick Pitino was the right coach at the right time for our program, but that being said, Kentucky made Rick Pitino, Rick Pitino DID NOT, I repeat, DID NOT, make Kentucky. I don't discount what he did at Providence early in his career, but let's face it, he was just a blip on the radar screen until he got to UK. Other than an occasional reference to him during a Sportscenter broadcast or perhaps an interview while he was coaching the Knicks, he was just one of a group of men who coached in the NBA.

The second feeling is what I told several people when he took the Louisville job. Doing what he did at Kentucky is one thing, replicating that success at a school like Louisville is something else entirely. I knew the job was going to be a lot more difficult.

As far as the Cards getting to the Final Four, sure, they got there and I give them their props for it, but think about it. The way some of our fans rake Tubby across the coals for the lack of Final Four appearances, can you imagine the outcry if Pitino had stayed, was still here, and got the to Final Four only to LOSE!? Especially if he had not brought a team back since '98, and hadn't been back since the one two years ago?

It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.

[rickdacatkilla]

I know one thing, we are not paying him that kind of money to lose to Dayton...

[TrueblueCATfan]

Pitino was a great coach while at UK.............He is NOT the same at UL.......PERIOD

[ukbob]

TrueblueCATfan wrote: Pitino was a great coach while at UK.............He is NOT the same at UL.......PERIOD

How could he be really?

RP caught lightning in a bottle here. And I have said it before and believe it more now...UK was as good for him as he was for UK. Did the fans really expect him to duplicate that feat at UL? He has had one good year there..that's it. And some other years were downright bad. No real consistency at all.

He has some of the same issues as our coach. His recruiting, at times, is darn good. At other times, it is a total waste. Injuries (#) have hurt him for sure (wonder who their S&C coach is?), but the move to the Big East hurt him worse.

RP is what he is(besides a liar). A very good coach who's warts are showing. He is not perfect and he certainly isn't the god of coaching as some of our fans make him outto be even now.

[Stucat]

ukbob wrote: TrueblueCATfan wrote: Pitino was a great coach while at UK.............He is NOT the same at UL.......PERIOD

How could he be really?

RP caught lightning in a bottle here. And I have said it before and believe it more now...UK was as good for him as he was for UK. Did the fans really expect him to duplicate that feat at UL? He has had one good year there..that's it. And some other years were downright bad. No real consistency at all.

He has some of the same issues as our coach. His recruiting, at times, is darn good. At other times, it is a total waste. Injuries (#) have hurt him for sure (wonder who their S&C coach is?), but the move to the Big East hurt him worse.

RP is what he is(besides a liar). A very good coach who's warts are showing. He is not perfect and he certainly isn't the god of coaching as some of our fans make him outto be even now.


I think time and some hard knocks and then tragedy has brought Pitino down. He seems to have lost the "fire in his belly" that he had at UK. He met with disaster in Boston which was part of the school of hard knocks that I was talking about and the loss of his brother-in-law in the World Trade Center brought tragedy into his life. Rick Pitino was thirty seven years old when he came to Kentucky and now he is fifty four years old.

The truth is Pitino doesn't even act like his heart is in basketball anymore. Would I like him back at Kentucky? No way! I think the truth is Dr. Lecter in answer to your question is no Pitino is not the same coach that he was at Kentucky. In my opinion he has gone down hill considerably since his UK days. There are many college coaches better than Pitino now in my honest opinion. I think yes the game has passed him by.

[Dr. H Lecter]

Stucat wrote: The truth is Pitino doesn't even act like his heart is in basketball anymore. Would I like him back at Kentucky? No way! I think the truth is Dr. Lecter in answer to your question is no Pitino is not the same coach that he was at Kentucky. In my opinion he has gone down hill considerably since his UK days. There are many college coaches better than Pitino now in my honest opinion. I think yes the game has passed him by.

We agree......rapprochement?!!!!!

[phoenix]

Things are dull when the long Pitino centered discussions develop. Who cares really, about Pitino?

[UedK]

Caveman Catfan wrote: UKS2H wrote: They were in the Final Four 2 seasons ago and their 5-star recruit is suspended. Don't get too excited by the loss tonight there, buddy.
Buddy?

I was thinking the same thing. I guess respect for our elders and serial psyco movie characters (re: Lecter) has evaporated.

For me. I loved the fact that there were about 7,800 Flyer fans there and about 200 Card fans. In an arena than wants to seat double digits. Made me almost as happy as the NIT South Carolina Dunk-A-Thon.

[UedK]

BigBlue75 wrote: I was upset when Pitino left for the NBA, like I think we all were to some degree or another. And I was shocked when he returned to coach Louisville, to say the least. However, I'm not a UK fan who despises the ground he walks on. To me, He is what he is: The head basketball coach at the University of Louisville. He is NOT my enemy.

I've always had two feelings about him when I think about him as a coach. Rick Pitino was the right coach at the right time for our program, but that being said, Kentucky made Rick Pitino, Rick Pitino DID NOT, I repeat, DID NOT, make Kentucky. I don't discount what he did at Providence early in his career, but let's face it, he was just a blip on the radar screen until he got to UK. Other than an occasional reference to him during a Sportscenter broadcast or perhaps an interview while he was coaching the Knicks, he was just one of a group of men who coached in the NBA.

The second feeling is what I told several people when he took the Louisville job. Doing what he did at Kentucky is one thing, replicating that success at a school like Louisville is something else entirely. I knew the job was going to be a lot more difficult.

As far as the Cards getting to the Final Four, sure, they got there and I give them their props for it, but think about it. The way some of our fans rake Tubby across the coals for the lack of Final Four appearances, can you imagine the outcry if Pitino had stayed, was still here, and got the to Final Four only to LOSE!? Especially if he had not brought a team back since '98, and hadn't been back since the one two years ago?

It wouldn't be pretty, that's for sure.


Pitino is an egotistical jerk. That is why some do not like him. When he left for he NBA I was fed up with hisPitnoishness and I was happy.

When he went to UL it just gave me another reason to want to kick them around the basketball court every time the opportunity came up.

[delkfor3]

TrueblueCATfan wrote: Pitino was a great coach while at UK....
Which is why UL hired him in the first place, they saw his success at UK and they wanted a piece of that. I never bought any of that "he was the best coach available" bunk, there were plenty of good coaches that could coach UL. They hired Pitino because thay wanted to stick it to UK, but in my humble opinion, it has backfired. I have said it once, and I'll say it again, RP will never win the NC for UL, it'll never happen.

[Stucat]

phoenix wrote: Things are dull when the long Pitino centered discussions develop. Who cares really, about Pitino?
I don't really care about Pitino but I really don't like seeing some of our fan base called names by some of our posters either. I think it is more acceptable to have discussions about Pitino than badmouthing some of our fans. Dr. Lecter developed the thread and I added my 2 cents worth and would willingly do it again!:rolleyes:

[jdeasy]

Dr. H Lecter wrote: Although the size of the crowd is no doubt dwindling, I am sure there are stilla few in our midst wholong for Rick Pitino on the sidelines at Rupp. I exited that crowd back in the summer of '97 but I digress.Much of the criticism of OTS still is based onPitino nostalgia; a longing for the glory days of 96-98 when we were a fixture in the NCAA title game. Its hard to forget that excitement.

But those days are gone and I believe so are the days of the magnificent Rick Pitino. I've said for a long time that UofL did not get the "UK Pitino." No, they got what I like to call Boston Rick,the failed NBA Coach, and not the hottest young coach in the land that UK made into a legend.

Folks...thankfully he aint getting it done there. I really believe that the game has passed him by. Dayton? Come now. Is a loss to Dayton something that is worth $2Mil per season. Their team looks seriously NIT bound again. Yet some of my UK brothers still long for him to be our coach.

Can someone explain why? Can you explain why you believe Boston Rick is still the same guy who UK turned into a legend. Why is it that you think he has not stayed too long and should have quit while on top.

My guess is he'll stay too long at LilBro and they'll allow him to because they will never admit that they made a BIG mistake. Their fans will never admit they didn't get their moneys worth. They will never admit that they treated their own legend Denny Crum very very badly just to get a piece of our glory. I suppose it was worth it to them just to see us eat our own and to see our reaction.

Maybe the tide has turned and we all can finally be over him. Once and for all....good riddance. You know...I don't see any of those "Got Pitino" shirts around town any more. I wonder why.



I've never been in the crowd that wanted him back, but, you are correct. He is not the same as he was when he was here. He is a better coach now. He has learned how to win close games where he seemed to always lose those before.



He appears to be less because he is not coaching at UK. Pitino did a lot for UK. UK did more for Pitino.

[catfan043]

Pitino has and always will be overrated...Kentucky has always been a prime place to play for titles and plenty of tv time and this helped him land some big recruits...I believe with everything in me that any coach in the country could have one with the '96 team, they was just that good...Now that Pitino is in loserville he isnt as able to get the top talent and he's nothing morethen a mediocre run and gun coach that could get on a roll and beat some top talent or be another NIT invitee...Anybody who believes that Pitino is one of the best is fooling theirselves

[Littlemeyer]

jd&ez wrote: He appears to be less because he is not coaching at UK. Pitino did a lot for UK. UK did more for Pitino.

:thumbup Couldn't agree more.

[Will Lavender]

I hate it when people jump into threadsand take up for Pitino (they're normally the first people to slay Tubby Smith), but I have to play devil's advocate a little here.

UofL was without McGee and Caracter.

And also: I don't think the "mid-major" upset is shocking anymore in college basketball. We've already seen it a lot this year. I watched Georgetown and was flat-out blown away...and then they lose to Old Dominion.

It happens. That's college basketball. The world has changed drastically in ten years.

[phoenix]

Stucat wrote: phoenix wrote: Things are dull when the long Pitino centered discussions develop. Who cares really, about Pitino?
I don't really care about Pitino but I really don't like seeing some of our fan base called names by some of our posters either. I think it is more acceptable to have discussions about Pitino than badmouthing some of our fans. Dr. Lecter developed the thread and I added my 2 cents worth and would willingly do it again!:rolleyes:
Once again, what are you talking about?

[Dr. H Lecter]

jd&ez wrote: I've never been in the crowd that wanted him back, but, you are correct. He is not the same as he was when he was here. He is a better coach now. He has learned how to win close games where he seemed to always lose those before.



I guess I have to agree with you.

Take for example the 10 straight road losses that he has Coached his Lil Bro team to is a good example of how he's grown as a coach. We used to lose 10 straight on the road all the time. :rolleyes: