Brandan Wright and Style of Play

[Art Vandelay]

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061203/COLUMNISTS01/612030449/1002

Wright's comments in this column should put an end to the argument about why Wright didn't come to UK. He clearly says it was style of play. End of discussion.

It's also very interesting that Deon Thompson said he chose UNC over UK because he liked Roy Williams' honesty. Wonder what he thought of Tubby?

[ukbob]

And this is the 1st recruit who finally says it where all can read it.

I hopeOTS read it, not that it matters because his style will not change...ever.

[Spanish Moss]

There goes the misconception the fans are the problem. Right out the window. The UK fans are saying the same thing the 5 star power forward recruits are saying.

Any of the three UNC players quoted would have made a big difference on our team. We need one of them but Carolina got all three.

I love UK and would die to play for the Cats. I would love to sit on their bench but I must admit, I do not enjoy Tubby Smith's offense. It appears many high school players agree with me.

I suspected this for a very long time but now players are speaking out and confirming it. The water just got turned up another notch for Mr. Frog in his pot. Maybe we can sleep through this with him.

BigBlueDrew was right.

[blueheretic]

People have been saying this for years. And have been shouted down repeatedly by people who are obsessed withTubby.

It is starting to come into the open.

Tubby's days are numbered, I think.

[Radiated]

It is the style of play. And it should be.

But, the fans do have an effect as well. Both do. And they always will. Plain and simple.

[DCWildcat]

The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.

[Art Vandelay]

DCWildcat wrote: The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.
Maybe their coaches recruit players that fit the style they coach. I don't really know because I don't care about either of those programs. I do know why Brandan Wright didn't want to play for Tubby despite being a self proclaimed lifelong UK fan - he doesn't like Tubby's style of play.

[blueheretic]

DCWildcat wrote: The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.


Who gives a damn?

I follow UK. I don't follow UT or UCLA.

I remember a lot of crying from UCLA when Stve Lavin was there. Tubby is comparable to Lavin mn m opinioin.

[bigsky]

Style of play, not fans. I think we got the reason for missing B Wright straight from the horses mouth. And those who are in denial and want to blame it the fans, well, you've got your answer.

[DCWildcat]

blueheretic wrote: DCWildcat wrote: The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.


Who gives a damn?

I follow UK. I don't follow UT or UCLA.

I remember a lot of crying from UCLA when Stve Lavin was there. Tubby is comparable to Lavin mn m opinioin.

I care because if they can find a way to be very successful in recruiting (as both have been) in spite of their tempo, we should be able to as well. Tubby could learn a thing or two from Howland or Barnes.

[Spanish Moss]

DCWildcat wrote: blueheretic wrote: DCWildcat wrote: The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.


Who gives a damn?

I follow UK. I don't follow UT or UCLA.

I remember a lot of crying from UCLA when Stve Lavin was there. Tubby is comparable to Lavin mn m opinioin.

I care because if they can find a way to be very successful in recruiting (as both have been) in spite of their tempo, we should be able to as well. Tubby could learn a thing or two from Howland or Barnes.

Maybe this is where the honesty factor comes in. Howland and Barnes make no bones as to the tempo they want and they recruit that type of athlete. If Coach Smith doesn't want an uptempo game he needs to say so. He needs to quit talking like he does in the preseason, then go out and play the opposite during the regular season.

If the Cats system is not uptempo then why would Coach Smith try to recruit players an uptempo team recruits. They may see right through that and go to UNC, Duke, Ohio State or Florida.

The fans and our recruits want honesty, not BS. If our coach doesn't want an uptempo game, then he should say so. Why try to tickle the fans ears with words you know they want to hear when you do not mean them. Apparently the recruits understand because the ones who make an impact are going other places.

Honesty would go along way in curing some of our problems. Problems with the fans and recruits.

[cbc317]

blueheretic wrote:
Tubby's days are numbered, I think.

We can only HOPE!

[Gunsmoke]

Also, ucla has the entire state of California to recruit from as their home state and Texas has the big ole state of Texas to get their players from. We can't keep up with the jonesgetting our players from here, even if we could get them all, which we can't. BIG BIG difference between their situations and ours.

[audacious1]

ukbob wrote: And this is the 1st recruit who finally says it where all can read it.

I hopeOTS read it, not that it matters because his style will not change...ever.

I'd be relunctant to say "ever" because it's rarely accurate. In fact, Tubby is working toward pressing the action more this year than last. We'll see if their efforts translate to make action on the court, but he's been saying this during his weekly show for weeks now.

[BigBlue41042]

Tre Pryor wrote: ukbob wrote: And this is the 1st recruit who finally says it where all can read it.

I hopeOTS read it, not that it matters because his style will not change...ever.

I'd be relunctant to say "ever" because it's rarely accurate. In fact, Tubby is working toward pressing the action more this year than last. We'll see if their efforts translate to make action on the court, but he's been saying this during his weekly show for weeks now.

Um, he's been saying this for years, actually. I quit believing him after last year.

[phoenix]

blueheretic wrote: DCWildcat wrote: The odd thing is that, despite running an even slower offense than we do, the likes of Texas and UCLA have never been blasted by fans/writers/recruits for having a slow tempo of offense.


Who gives a damn?

I follow UK. I don't follow UT or UCLA.

I remember a lot of crying from UCLA when Stve Lavin was there. Tubby is comparable to Lavin mn m opinioin.

Obviously your a fan that missed his point about FANS. Tubby is in no way comparable to Lavin, in his performance or his ability to coach, nor his record. And UCLA cried their way to a bunch of different coaches over time and what did Herrick end up doing for them in the process?

[phoenix]

BigBlue41042 wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: ukbob wrote: And this is the 1st recruit who finally says it where all can read it.

I hopeOTS read it, not that it matters because his style will not change...ever.

I'd be relunctant to say "ever" because it's rarely accurate. In fact, Tubby is working toward pressing the action more this year than last. We'll see if their efforts translate to make action on the court, but he's been saying this during his weekly show for weeks now.

Um, he's been saying this for years, actually. I quit believing him after last year.
This team is running a much faster offense than in prior years imo, but, half the speed of the game is established by defense. Tubby is always going to extend the other team with D. That is always going to slow it down some. If you want to run a rudimentary man defense like Ricky, it will speed the game up, and works fine as long as your shooters make their baskets.

[Caveman Catfan]

And . . . there it is.

B. Wright said it.Everyone stand up and listen! We need not discuss it again. B. Wright has spoken!

And, now we know that Meeks, Jasper, Porter, and Stevenson are either idiots or love to slow it to a grind! They should have found out what B. Wright was thinking before the signed with the Cats.

[Caveman Catfan]

bigsky wrote: Style of play, not fans. I think we got the reason for missing B Wright straight from the horses mouth. And those who are in denial and want to blame it the fans, well, you've got your answer.


Again, no more need for conversation, B. Wright has spoken. The fans can do no wrong!

I hope B. Wright sets us straight on other things. Did he say whether it should have been Michigan or Florida? Paper or plastic? Gore or Bush? :cool:

[RaleighCat]

Caveman Catfan wrote: And . . . there it is.

B. Wright said it.Everyone stand up and listen! We need not discuss it again. B. Wright has spoken!

And, now we know that Meeks, Jasper, Porter, and Stevenson are either idiots or love to slow it to a grind! They should have found out what B. Wright was thinking before the signed with the Cats.


Good gravy, Caveman, give it a rest. Tubby-honks claim it's unrealistic fans that keep players like Brandan Wright away. Well, looks like one of those players has been quoted and it's worth noting what he said. I didn't see him mention internet negativity, did you?

Unless you still want to blame everything on unrealistic fans.

[Spanish Moss]

Since Brandan was our number one target and a legitimate impact player and was a high school All American who would have made a big difference in our team, I will listen to what he has to say. Sad to say, I am sure recruits will too.

His words were damaging to our reputation and our program but I feel they were honest. I don't think he was saying something that he did not think was true. We know, if we are honest in our evaluation of our program, that Kentucky plays the way he described and that is not attractive to most of the major impact players.

We need to find players who wants to play slow down basketball and recruit them. We are wasting our time recruiting players who prefer uptemp because even if we sign them, they will become dissatisfied once they come to Lexington and may end up leaving or causing turmoil on the team if they stay.

[audacious1]

RaleighCat wrote: Caveman Catfan wrote: And . . . there it is.

B. Wright said it.Everyone stand up and listen! We need not discuss it again. B. Wright has spoken!

And, now we know that Meeks, Jasper, Porter, and Stevenson are either idiots or love to slow it to a grind! They should have found out what B. Wright was thinking before the signed with the Cats.

Good gravy, Caveman, give it a rest. Tubby-honks claim it's unrealistic fans that keep players like Brandan Wright away. Well, looks like one of those players has been quoted and it's worth noting what he said. I didn't see him mention internet negativity, did you?

Unless you still want to blame everything on unrealistic fans.

Raleigh, no one is claiming that "unrealistic fans" are the only reason that recruiting is down, it's just one of the reasons. To throw it all onto that one issue is purposefully misleading and it's easy (but still trying) to spot some of you come with the same broken record.

[katfever]

Caveman Catfan wrote: bigsky wrote: Style of play, not fans. I think we got the reason for missing B Wright straight from the horses mouth. And those who are in denial and want to blame it the fans, well, you've got your answer.


Again, no more need for conversation, B. Wright has spoken. The fans can do no wrong!

I hope B. Wright sets us straight on other things. Did he say whether it should have been Michigan or Florida? Paper or plastic? Gore or Bush? :cool:
Another very proud member of the "stick your head in the sand crowd."

[poodoo]

Here we go with all that labeling of fellow Cat fans again. :(

Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing. In regard to Tubby's always slowing down the tempo, though, I think that is an exaggeration and misleading, whether it be said by a UK fan or Brandan Wright himself. We surely slowed it down against UNC and should have won the game by doing so (if only we could have handled the ball better or could have made only a few more threes). Personally, I also find the faster style more appealing, BUT I would take a win any day of the week, so I would have been perfectly satisfied with the tempo of that game if we had won the game.

Honestly, though, back to the labeling, I surely have not seen many (if any)here who blame the loss of Brandan Wright on UK fans. I happen to think that we fans have NO responsibility whatsoever in that loss. Tubby's failure to land a top power forward in recent years cannot be blamed on UK fans, period, in my opinion. Having said that, I do feel that we fans, especially the ad to fire Tubby that even caught the national press' attention, couldPOSSIBLY affect the recruiting of Patrick Patterson in a negative way, based on quotes about how much Patterson "loves" Tubby and his parents' concerns about the negativity toward Tubby.

As I so often (and tiringly :D)say, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Tubby himself must shoulder the responsibility for our lack of signing a top power forward in recent years. However, although I will not point any blame at UK fans if we lose Patrick (as I happen to hate that Blame Game as I hate labeling of fellow Cat fans and I don't hate much at all, honestly), if we lose Patrick Patterson, UK fans COULD bear some responsibility on this loss, just basing that opinion on what I have read from the recruit and his family. Just my humble opinion on the matter. GO CATS!!!

[Caveman Catfan]

RaleighCat wrote: Unless you still want to blame everything on unrealistic fans.

I agree there are many unrealistic fans, but I never said I want to blame anything on unrealistic fans. I have always advocated for sensible fans demonstrating common sense.

If you want to argue by pretending others are making extreme comments that you can then knock down, have at it. Its just not close to anything I have said.

[Caveman Catfan]

katfever wrote: Another very proud member of the "stick your head in the sand crowd."

Let someone else toot your horn. Quite bragging on yourself.

[Caveman Catfan]

poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.

Talk about heads in the sand.

[Art Vandelay]

Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.

Talk about heads in the sand.



There were numerous threads on this forum over the last year with lots of posters arguing that style of play had nothing to do with Brandan Wright's decision. Brandan Wright says categorically that he chose UNC over UK because of style of play.

Moreover, if style of play was the deciding factor, Tubby should have known Wright was not the right player for his system and spent the two years he spent on Wright recruiting someone that fit his system.

We do have a class of very solid freshman, but we don't have a player, especially a PF, the caliber of a Brandan Wright. Wright on this year's team would make a huge difference.

Something is broken with our recruiting. Wright's comments are just further evidence of that. Anyone that truly thinks we are getting it done on the recruiting font is satisfied with UK being a mediocre program. It's that simple.

[blueheretic]

Tre Pryor wrote: Raleigh, no one is claiming that "unrealistic fans" are the only reason that recruiting is down,



You might not be saying it, but, you certainly give a disproportionate amount of blame to fans.

And you start a thread on it every other day.

These silly threads are just as tiresome as those directed at Tubby Smith and his seeming inability to understand that he is not a very good recruiter and therefore needs to hire one. Even if that means letting one of his not so stellar staff go.

[bigsky]

blueheretic wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: Raleigh, no one is claiming that "unrealistic fans" are the only reason that recruiting is down,



You might not be saying it, but, you certainly give a disproportionate amount of blame to fans.

And you start a thread on it every other day.

These silly threads are just as tiresome as those directed at Tubby Smith and his seeming inability to understand that he is not a very good recruiter and therefore needs to hire one. Even if that means letting one of his not so stellar staff go.


Exactly.

[bigsky]

Art Vandelay wrote: Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.

Talk about heads in the sand.



There were numerous threads on this forum over the last year with lots of posters arguing that style of play had nothing to do with Brandan Wright's decision. Brandan Wright says categorically that he chose UNC over UK because of style of play.

Moreover, if style of play was the deciding factor, Tubby should have known Wright was not the right player for his system and spent the two years he spent on Wright recruiting someone that fit his system.

We do have a class of very solid freshman, but we don't have a player, especially a PF, the caliber of a Brandan Wright. Wright on this year's team would make a huge difference.

Something is broken with our recruiting. Wright's comments are just further evidence of that. Anyone that truly thinks we are getting it done on the recruiting font is satisfied with UK being a mediocre program. It's that simple.



Good points. Further, the Brandon Wright experience is not limited to "one recruit". We've missed out on targets again and again.

Further, our evaluation of recruits is as poor as I've ever seen. It's true, it isn't about rankings, but it IS about evaluation, finding people to recruit so that it's not a roster full of Adam Williams' and Rekalin Sims and Brandon Stocktons and Shagari Alleyne's and others and leaving room for the Chris Lofton's of the recruiting world.

And the fellow on ESPN who said Brandon Wright under Tubby Smith wouldn't be the player he is under Roy Williams is exactly right, too. Player development is a big part of what's missing on this staff.

Negative fans are an result, not a cause.

[blueheretic]

Player development is a problem. Allowing players to maximize their talents is a greater problem.

Tubby places a yoke on the shoulders of each player who comes to him. Talent under some coaches is a blessing. Under Tubby Smith, talent is a burden.

Tubby under utilizes players talents.

Tubby does not allow his best and brightest to shine.

That is exactly why a player like Chuck Hayes, who was evidently good enough that he should have been drafted, goes undrafted and Reynaldo Balkman goes in the First Round.

That is a REASON why Tubby Smith does not recruit upper level talentwell.

If I were a talented recruit and Tubby Smith used Chuck Hayes as an example of his successes at getting someone into the NBA, I would laugh in his face. Prince is another fine example of Tubby Smith being a draft day failure.

But it's fan negativity that hurts recruting. Give me a break.

[Swimmer4uk]

bigsky wrote: Negative fans are an result, not a cause.


Bravo bigsky. I whole-heartedly agree

[sardiscat]

I try not tocomment about UK's recruiting, because the one thing that is obvious from reading the recruiting posts is that nobody actually knows who Tubby is trying to get or for what reason. I also try not to bash the coach, but I am going to say right now that it is unacceptable for UK to be mediocre for two seasons in a row. A mediocre season sometimes happens. Happened under Rupp, happened under Hall, happened under Sutton. Didn't happen under Pitino except for his first season, which wasn't his fault, but probably would have had his stay at UK been longer. He certainly had a mediocre season at UL last year. However, two mediocre seasons in a row has only happened at UK when Sutton crashed the program. Hall and Rupp followed up mediocre seasons withconference championships the next season. I don't like what I saw against Memphis and UNC one bit. There are no excuses this year. UK has a veteran team. Three seniors and three juniors in the rotation has always been a recipe for great success at UK. Failure to have a great season this year will be a commentary on the coach's recruiting, player development, or both.

[Caveman Catfan]

bigsky wrote: Good points. Further, the Brandon Wright experience is not limited to "one recruit". We've missed out on targets again and again.

Further, our evaluation of recruits is as poor as I've ever seen. It's true, it isn't about rankings, but it IS about evaluation, finding people to recruit so that it's not a roster full of Adam Williams' and Rekalin Sims and Brandon Stocktons and Shagari Alleyne's and others and leaving room for the Chris Lofton's (#) of the recruiting world.

And the fellow on ESPN who said Brandon Wright under Tubby Smith wouldn't be the player he is under Roy Williams is exactly right, too. Player development is a big part of what's missing on this staff.

Negative fans are an result, not a cause.




Most teams lose out on targets. The point is that Brandon's comments are not indicative of anyone's comments but Brandon's. So, the loss of other targets can be attributed to any number of reasons until we hear from the kids.

Negative fans never help recruiting. I do not know how anyone can argue otherwise. I am not sure how Brandon would respond if he was asked about negativity amongst the fan base, but we have quotes from other recruits and parents of recruits that comment on the negativity. As to recruiting, I would be interested to hear someone argue how fan negativityhelps recruiting.

The evaluation of talent also must include Rondo,Morris, Stevenson, and all of the recruits that fans like. Every big school has afew kids that ride the pine. Pointing tothose players and acting like that is indicative of poor evaluation without looking to the other kids UK recruited is reallynot a fair presentation of a position.

UK recruited Brandon Wright right down to the end.Clearly, everyone here agrees theyevaluated his talent properly. You can't talk about all the great talent UK recruited and lost out on and then act like UK cannot evaluate talent.

What recruits on this year's frosh class demonstrate a poor evaluation?

As to Lofton, Pitino thought he found a better guard and Tubby thought Joe Crawford was his guy. Its not as if they both just passed on Lofton thinking he was no good.

[bigsky]

Caveman Catfan wrote: bigsky wrote: Good points. Further, the Brandon Wright experience is not limited to "one recruit". We've missed out on targets again and again.

Further, our evaluation of recruits is as poor as I've ever seen. It's true, it isn't about rankings, but it IS about evaluation, finding people to recruit so that it's not a roster full of Adam Williams' and Rekalin Sims and Brandon Stocktons and Shagari Alleyne's and others and leaving room for the Chris Lofton's (#) of the recruiting world.

And the fellow on ESPN who said Brandon Wright under Tubby Smith wouldn't be the player he is under Roy Williams is exactly right, too. Player development is a big part of what's missing on this staff.

Negative fans are an result, not a cause.




Most teams lose out on targets. The point is that Brandon's comments are not indicative of anyone's comments but Brandon's. So, the loss of other targets can be attributed to any number of reasons until we hear from the kids.

Negative fans never help recruiting. I do not know how anyone can argue otherwise. I am not sure how Brandon would respond if he was asked about negativity amongst the fan base, but we have quotes from other recruits and parents of recruits that comment on the negativity. As to recruiting, I would be interested to hear someone argue how fan negativityhelps recruiting.

The evaluation of talent also must include Rondo,Morris, Stevenson, and all of the recruits that fans like. Every big school has afew kids that ride the pine. Pointing tothose players and acting like that is indicative of poor evaluation without looking to the other kids UK recruited is reallynot a fair presentation of a position.

UK recruited Brandon Wright right down to the end.Clearly, everyone here agrees theyevaluated his talent properly. You can't talk about all the great talent UK recruited and lost out on and then act like UK cannot evaluate talent.

What recruits on this year's frosh class demonstrate a poor evaluation?

As to Lofton, Pitino thought he found a better guard and Tubby thought Joe Crawford was his guy. Its not as if they both just passed on Lofton thinking he was no good.




There's more than one year; even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. So limiting the evaluation to one year isn't something I'm going to participate in.

It wasn't a case of either or with Lofton. We had filled the roster with dead weight and he didn't have a spot for him. Look at this year's senior class, and Shagari Alleyne and Rekalin Sims. We didn't need to have them fillin the scholarships. Joe Crawford and Chris Lofton could certainly play on the same team.

I don't think Lofton would ever have played much for Tubby, though. He'd have sat like Carrier sat, and only gotten in with the pressure to shoot instead of being played and developed.

Negative fans are a result of poor performance.

[Caveman Catfan]

bigsky wrote: There's more than one year; even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. So limiting the evaluation to one year isn't something I'm going to participate in.

It wasn't a case of either or with Lofton. We had filled the roster with dead weight and he didn't have a spot for him. Look at this year's senior class, and Shagari Alleyne and Rekalin Sims. We didn't need to have them fillin the scholarships. Joe Crawford and Chris Lofton could certainly play on the same team.

I don't think Lofton would ever have played much for Tubby, though. He'd have sat like Carrier sat, and only gotten in with the pressure to shoot instead of being played and developed.

Negative fans are a result of poor performance.



I can understand why you might not want the discussion. Not just one acorn, but 4-5 in this freshmen class. Then the junior class had three McDonald's AAs. Blind squirrel? Doubtful.

The class that Lofton is in was not filled with "dead weight." Bradley, Rondo, Morris and Crawford. No dead weight in that class. It was one of the mostly highly rated classes of the year, top five, if not the best. Tubby did not waste a scholarship that year.

Comparing Carrier with Lofton tells me a great deal about where you are coming from.

[Will Lavender]

Weren't we having this exact same discussion about Patrick Sparks circa 2001?

He played at UK. Started every game of his career here, I think.

Lofton would play. Too good of a player not to. And he would develop here, too, just like the Fitches and Daniels and Hayes and Sparks and Mosses and Morrises that we've had come through here.

The reason he would develop is because he seems to have a hellacious work ethic. Look at his body now as compared to when he came to UT.

If you went up to an athlete and told them that their coach was responsible for their development, they'd laugh in your face. Coaches get WAY too much blame and credit on these fan boards. These kids are responsible for how they grow. They know that. A coach only has a veritably short time with the kid. The real work in terms of development is done after the season ends.

[poodoo]

Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.





FWIW, I absolutely agree. Too, I happen to think that Roy Williams successfully made Brandan Wright think that his style of play was better for him, and, of course, Williams must be given credit for that.I know that Brandon told someone last year, someone I trust,that he chose UNC over UK because he thought he would play more minutes and increase his chances of making it to the NBA. I suspect Roy Williams played a role in that. Regardless, as you are saying, plenty of talented recruits are just fine with our style of play, and it is not AS SLOW as some paint it to be. GO CATS!

[poodoo]

blueheretic wrote: Player development is a problem. Allowing players to maximize their talents is a greater problem.

That is exactly why a player like Chuck Hayes, who was evidently good enough that he should have been drafted, goes undrafted and Reynaldo Balkman goes in the First Round.

That is a REASON why Tubby Smith does not recruit upper level talentwell.

If I were a talented recruit and Tubby Smith used Chuck Hayes as an example of his successes at getting someone into the NBA, I would laugh in his face. Prince is another fine example of Tubby Smith being a draft day failure.




I really think Tubby COULD use Chuck Hayes as an example of developing players for the NBA, as long as he thoroughly explained his arguments. Too, while I agree with you, Dave,that Tubby may not allow some players to shine offensively as much as some other coaches (just as Dean Smith similarly did not allow Michael Jordan to do so), I disagree that overall player development is a problem.

Further, in regard to Chuck Hayes, specifically, Tubby Smith did not limit his "shining" in any way. Hayes is shining now just as he shined for Tubby, in both defense and rebounding, and THAT is what is not only keeping him in the NBA, but allowing him to start. Chuck's coach calls him their best post defender. Until last night's game Chuck Hayes, at 6' 6", had been leading his team in rebounding for FIVE straight games and had grabbed FIFTEEN boards against the Golden State Warriors. Also in regard to Tayshaun, it was not Tubby's not allowing him to shine, as Tayshaundid shine, but it was NBA folks' fears that Tayshaun was not STRONG enough for the NBA (and I base that on what I read, notmy own opinion). Having said that,again, I do agree that there areplayerswhose offensive productionmay be limited by Tubby's style, and Rajon Rondo could certainly be an example of that, although Rajon actually went quite high in thedraft, considering his lack of an outside shot.

To me, MAKING the NBA and actually PLAYING in the NBA is what matters more than merely being a top pick. There are endless examples of college players who have been drafted high and then do not play and do not STICK. That's where Tubby Smith definitely has some players to point to as being successful in the NBA because they have been developed as COMPLETE players. I sincerely believe that Tubby Smith needs to better make his case in that regard. The NBA coaches PRAISE Tubby Smith's development of complete players for the NBA, and Tubby himself needs to use their comments in recruiting, in my opinion. I have read that the UK coaches specifically do not want to sell development for the NBA, but to concentrate on UK's tradition, selling the UK basketball COLLEGE basketball program. That's commendable, BUT I feel we may lose some top recruits by doing so.

By the way, I am NOT arguing. I am merely sharing how I really feel about the subject. :)GO CATS!

[Art Vandelay]

poodoo wrote: Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.





FWIW, I absolutely agree. Too, I happen to think that Roy Williams successfully made Brandan Wright think that his style of play was better for him, and, of course, Williams must be given credit for that.I know that Brandon told someone last year, someone I trust,that he chose UNC over UK because he thought he would play more minutes and increase his chances of making it to the NBA. I suspect Roy Williams played a role in that. Regardless, as you are saying, plenty of talented recruits are just fine with our style of play, and it is not AS SLOW as some paint it to be. GO CATS!So, to be clear, there is currently nothing wrong with UK's recruiting? We are consistently filling our needs and putting together the type of talent we need to compete for conference and national titles? You don't think this program is in any way in decline or in need of improvement?

[poodoo]

Art Vandelay wrote: poodoo wrote: Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.





FWIW, I absolutely agree. Too, I happen to think that Roy Williams successfully made Brandan Wright think that his style of play was better for him, and, of course, Williams must be given credit for that.I know that Brandon told someone last year, someone I trust,that he chose UNC over UK because he thought he would play more minutes and increase his chances of making it to the NBA. I suspect Roy Williams played a role in that. Regardless, as you are saying, plenty of talented recruits are just fine with our style of play, and it is not AS SLOW as some paint it to be. GO CATS!So, to be clear, there is currently nothing wrong with UK's recruiting? We are consistently filling our needs and putting together the type of talent we need to compete for conference and national titles? You don't think this program is in any way in decline or in need of improvement?


To whom are you speaking, Art? Surely no one has said that there is nothing currently wrong with UK's recruiting. We have absolutely been below UK's standards in both the sophomore and senior classes. We have absolutely missed out on some top power forwards. We absolutely need to improve in recruiting, specifically in more consistently getting top classes to commit.

The topic was ONLY how much our style of play influences recruiting. We signed a highly ranked class last year with our style of play AND two years before that with our style of play. That was the topic as I understood it. GO CATS!

[Grub]

blueheretic wrote: That is exactly why a player like Chuck Hayes, who was evidently good enough that he should have been drafted, goes undrafted and Reynaldo Balkman goes in the First Round.
I can see your point. The major knock on Chuch Hayes was he was too small to play power forward in the NBA. That was clearly Tubby Smith's fault.

[justford]

Caveman Catfan wrote: bigsky wrote: There's more than one year; even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. So limiting the evaluation to one year isn't something I'm going to participate in.

It wasn't a case of either or with Lofton. We had filled the roster with dead weight and he didn't have a spot for him. Look at this year's senior class, and Shagari Alleyne and Rekalin Sims. We didn't need to have them fillin the scholarships. Joe Crawford and Chris Lofton could certainly play on the same team.

I don't think Lofton would ever have played much for Tubby, though. He'd have sat like Carrier sat, and only gotten in with the pressure to shoot instead of being played and developed.

Negative fans are a result of poor performance.



I can understand why you might not want the discussion. Not just one acorn, but 4-5 in this freshmen class. Then the junior class had three McDonald's AAs. Blind squirrel? Doubtful.

The class that Lofton is in was not filled with "dead weight." Bradley, Rondo, Morris and Crawford. No dead weight in that class. It was one of the mostly highly rated classes of the year, top five, if not the best. Tubby did not waste a scholarship that year.

Comparing Carrier with Lofton tells me a great deal about where you are coming from.
What did we accomplish by giving Rondo a scholarship? Is the best yet to come for Bradley, Morris, and Crawford? I can see both sides of this debate and that is why it is difficult to recruit one player vs another:shrug:

[audacious1]

blueheretic wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: Raleigh, no one is claiming that "unrealistic fans" are the only reason that recruiting is down,

You might not be saying it, but, you certainly give a disproportionate amount of blame to fans.

And you start a thread on it every other day.

These silly threads are just as tiresome as those directed at Tubby Smith and his seeming inability to understand that he is not a very good recruiter and therefore needs to hire one. Even if that means letting one of his not so stellar staff go.

Every other day? Please. Get over it whiner. Like people aren't sick and tired of your broken record schtick?

[audacious1]

bigsky wrote: Negative fans are an result, not a cause.

Sure, fans can do nothing wrong... ever. So you don't think what that idiot Prof. at UK did with his ad calling for Tubby's head was counter-productive to recruiting?

I think it's just that some fans like to say whatever they want to say and never be held accountable. If it's always someone else's fault than I must be perfect. Very sad.

[blueheretic]

HAHAHA...that's rich coming from you....LOL



Nice talking to ya. :shock:

[blueheretic]

Grub wrote: blueheretic wrote: That is exactly why a player like Chuck Hayes, who was evidently good enough that he should have been drafted, goes undrafted and Reynaldo Balkman goes in the First Round.
I can see your point. The major knock on Chuch Hayes was he was too small to play power forward in the NBA. That was clearly Tubby Smith's fault.


There have been tons of players drafted who were undersized.

Charles Barkley was considered too small. Jameer Nelson was considered too small. Plenty of projects drafted.

Unless you play for Tubby Smith.

[Caveman Catfan]

poodoo wrote: Caveman Catfan wrote: poodoo wrote: Anyway, back to the subject, I think Brandon is speaking truthfully. I think he found UNC's (#) style more appealing.
Yup. And he is one recruit.

We have a class of five new recruits that people have praised after seeing them on the floor (4, with the hope that Harris is another). To pretend that Wright speaks for all or most or many recruits, is to ignore the obvious.





FWIW, I absolutely agree. Too, I happen to think that Roy Williams successfully made Brandan Wright think that his style of play was better for him, and, of course, Williams must be given credit for that.I know that Brandon told someone last year, someone I trust,that he chose UNC over UK because he thought he would play more minutes and increase his chances of making it to the NBA. I suspect Roy Williams played a role in that. Regardless, as you are saying, plenty of talented recruits are just fine with our style of play, and it is not AS SLOW as some paint it to be. GO CATS!

Brandon may thrive in Williams' system, but he would also excel in Tubby's offense and defense. With that hook shot, I think he would be a central figure in the offense for the Cats.

Also, Tubby's half court defense will slow many games down, because the other teams will have to work for their openings, when the defense is working well.

[Caveman Catfan]

justford wrote: What did we accomplish by giving Rondo a scholarship? Is the best yet to come for Bradley, Morris, and Crawford? I can see both sides of this debate and that is why it is difficult to recruit one player vs another:shrug:

Not sure what you are asking about Rondo, but this discussion about recruiting can not be viewed in the rear view window. When Rondo was signed, there was not an interested Cat fan that was not thrilled. He was a McDee AA and evaluated by many as highly talented. Whether he met all fans' expectations is another story, but he certainly had great skills in many areas of the game and was a true talent.

[poodoo]

Brandon may thrive in Williams' system, but he would also excel in Tubby's offense and defense. With that hook shot, I think he would be a central figure in the offense for the Cats.

Also, Tubby's half court defense will slow many games down, because the other teams will have to work for their openings, when the defense is working well. QUOTE by Caveman Catfan

__________

I agree on those points, too. Also, speaking of Tubby's defense, surprisingly Bozich shared today that this team has held its past four opponents to under 38% shooting. That includes UNC and Indiana, of course. Pretty impressive.

Speaking of style of play, something I have not seen mentioned is that Kelvin Sampson currently has theTOP recruiting class in the nation. That surely shows that not all top recruits strongly prefer to play a run-and-gun style. John Clay's column today speaks of Sampson's "smash-mouth" basketball, emphasizing defense and rebounding, similar to Tubby's teams. Go figure. :)GO CATS!