This Is All Heretic's Fault

[I. Melvin]

One positive comment and you've upset the cosmos. ;)

Btw, anybody hear Colin Cowherd's comments about Kentucky Basketball moments ago?

[heatwave13]

What did Herd say about us?

[I. Melvin]

That under Tubby Smith we have slipped out of the Top Ten in terms of prestige. Compared Tubby's performance to that of Lloyd Carr (Michigan football coach).

Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

Spent about ten minutes discussing us and taking calls on the subject.

[UKhoov]

I would like to see what people outside of our program and fan base have to say about our team and the tubby era.

[BrassowFan]

UKhoov wrote: I would like to see what people outside of our program and fan base have to say about our team and the tubby era.

I know that in the Columbus area, the talk is about how long UK will continue to fall before they step up and do something about Tubby Smith. That's the consistent question that I hear raised when I discuss sports with colleagues.

[blueheretic]

I. Melvin wrote: One positive comment and you've upset the cosmos. ;)

Btw, anybody hear Colin Cowherd's comments about Kentucky Basketball moments ago?




I apologize. Poodoo,Angie and Lisamade me do it. ;)

[katfever]

I. Melvin wrote: That under Tubby Smith we have slipped out of the Top Ten in terms of prestige. Compared Tubby's performance to that of Lloyd Carr (Michigan football coach).

Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

Spent about ten minutes discussing us and taking calls on the subject.


The truth hurts.

[UFWildcat]

I. Melvin wrote: That under Tubby Smith we have slipped out of the Top Ten in terms of prestige. Compared Tubby's performance to that of Lloyd Carr (Michigan football coach).

Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

Spent about ten minutes discussing us and taking calls on the subject.



Just to elaborate a little....

First of all I had stopped listening to the Herd's showa couple of months ago. I respect his opinion but he is such a PAC-10 homer that I had to relieve myself of him for a while. He was driving me crazy during football season.But I do believe he was right on with his view on the subject.

He starts out by saying exactly what I.Melvin posted up above. Kentucky is a top 3 program that is part of the life blood of college basketball. But like all of usalready painfully know, the program has slipped out of that realm.

He goes on to say that college programs are different than pro teams. Elite programs can only be compared to themselves. So he's basically saying that a program like Kentucky has nobody to compare itself too besides itself. It's a question of "Is the coach of this type of a program overachievingor underachieving?" Tubby is underachieving. He also goes on to say that you can't judge Tubby on just wins alone. He should be going 30-4 with the type of resources and the bread basket of talent that is available to Kentucky. Nobody in the SEC cares more about basketball than the University of Kentucky.

The main thing I took away from his rant was his analogy of Kentucky basketball to McDonalds Corp. McDonalds doesn't worry about how many burgers they sell when compared to other restaurants.They have the most franchises in the world and always have the most momentum going forward. They only compare themselves to themselves.

The last thing he talked about was the pros and cons of Tubby. Tubby isn't a bad guy and we don't have any scandals to worry about. He also wins a majority of his games, but the reality is that the program has slipped. 10 yearsand only two All-Americans.He isn't calling the Tubby Smith era a disaster, this is no Larry Coker, but there is some seriouserosion happening when compared to itself.

Thought it was pretty interesting to hear the Herd talk about Kentucky basketball and the state it is in.

[ukwebfan]

I'm guessing UCLA was out of the top 10 for 10 years or better. UNC 4 years around the DOH years. UK I guess a year and a half? What does it matter? Was FLA TOP 10 last year?

I. Melvin wrote:Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

[UFWildcat]

ukwebfan wrote: I'm guessing UCLA was out of the top 10 for 10 years or better. UNC 4 years around the DOH years. UK I guess a year and a half? What does it matter? Was FLA TOP 10 last year?

I. Melvin wrote:Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.


Its about your stature in an organization. UCLA, UNC, UK are the big dogs of college basketball. No matter what happens college basketball NEEDS them.The law of diminishing returns. These teams may get to a certain point where they aren't producing at the right level. When this point occurs, a new system needs to be put in place.

Sure your going to have an inferior program rise up and win a title from now and then. But that changes nothing in the GRAND scheme of things.

UCLA and UNC recovered, its time for us.

[ukwebfan]

How exactly has UCLA and UNC recovered again? I don't mean anything by that other than what is the measuring stick? Top Ten finishes, Final Fours, National Championships, Mickey D's on the roster???

UFWildcat wrote: UCLA and UNC recovered, its time for us.

[blueheretic]

I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.

[Littlemeyer]

blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
Come on, Blue. You don't really believe that, do you? Or is this more of you being, like you said this morning, a smart___?

[BrassowFan]

blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.

Yep... it would be the elusive power forward that we're still missing or the players who left early or the fact that these guys are just trying and Tubby can't walk out on the court and do it for them....

It's one thing to support the coach of the program, it is something else to allow someone to destroy it in the name of "trying". IMO, coaches "try" when they work at the high school or Division II level, at this point, they are expected to succeed. It's not about whether he's a nice guy or about the character of the man, it's about his ability to lead a program at this level. Unfortunately, it's just too much for Tubby.

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

I. Melvin wrote: That under Tubby Smith we have slipped out of the Top Ten in terms of prestige. Compared Tubby's performance to that of Lloyd Carr (Michigan football coach).

Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

Spent about ten minutes discussing us and taking calls on the subject.



Uh oh, Herd (an outsider with no dog in the fight and someone who doesn't see UK bball through blue glasses) tells the truth and I'm sure most will attack him as being anti-UK.

Listen to what others say about us.

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

ukwebfan wrote: I'm guessing UCLA was out of the top 10 for 10 years or better. UNC 4 years around the DOH years. UK I guess a year and a half? What does it matter? Was FLA TOP 10 last year?

I. Melvin wrote:Said UCLA, North Carolina and Kentucky were the three premier programs and that we should never be out of the Top Ten discussion.

Yeah and both UCLA and UNC did SOMETHING about their problems- they fired them and now look!!

[hoosierhateruklover]

I told ya down in Nashville last month that the glass is half empty heretic, if only u woulda listened we'd be on our way to the FF!

[audacious1]

blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.

[blueheretic]

Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.


I think you would. You were exactly one of those whom I wrote. What would bethe difference? He would still be running a clean program. He'd still be a classy guy. You would still have reason to beleive that he can turn it around. Parity and variance would still be around. It would still be 17 and 18 year olds spurning Tubby for inexplicable reasons.The same excuses or "reasons" would be in effect. You guys act like Tubby can't overcome these things now. You guys act like Tubby shouldn't be expected to overcome these challenges now. Even though the man demanded to be paid top dollar, you guys still forgive the fact that he is not putting out a top product. You buy his excuses everytime and are being conditioned to have lower and lower expectations and you are accepting these low expectations easily. Over time, they get lower and lower and you buy into it because of parity and variance and other poor excuses.

So why not push them lower and lower. He's already done it and you don't realize it. The UGa game, the Vandy game, last year, no FFs, the past team turmoils. You guys accept all of this and still think that Tubby should be here. There is little difference between this and the slip to lower and lower. Because it is occuring over a period of time. You guys are watcing it happen and don't mind it one bit.

And you vociferously defend him as he does it. You are already there.

I beleive this about many of you. Not all. But quite a few.

[BrassowFan]

Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.


Why not then go over to the thread "A Fair Question" and cite exactly what it would take for you to believe that it's time for Tubby to go.

I think that you and a few others are afraid to do so....

[audacious1]

BrassowFan wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.


Why not then go over to the thread "A Fair Question" and cite exactly what it would take for you to believe that it's time for Tubby to go.

I think that you and a few others are afraid to do so....

LOL. "Afraid"? Seriously? C'mon guy... you guys are just pissed because your team isn't doing well and you want someone to blame. If you want to try and pick on fans who are defending Tubby, guess again. I won't play that game.

I won't contribute to that thread because it's counter-productive to my goal, which is for the basketball program to do well. Blasting your head coach on message boards isn't a productive practice, but go right ahead if that's what you feel is the right thing to do.

[BrassowFan]

Pryor, saying what your threshold is for a coaching change isn't couter-productive to the program doing well. IMO, there's just nothing short of a serious felony that would cause many to consider that he's just not the right guy.

[NOWIS]

tdWILD wrote: Tubby is a good coach... some of you people need to get off his back
Tubby is a good coach, we need a great coach.

[NOWIS]

BrassowFan wrote: Pryor, saying what your threshold is for a coaching change isn't couter-productive to the program doing well. IMO, there's just nothing short of a serious felony that would cause many to consider that he's just not the right guy.
IMO some are afraid to put down their threshold, they're liable to find out just how close Tubby is to it.

[BrassowFan]

NOWIS wrote: BrassowFan wrote: Pryor, saying what your threshold is for a coaching change isn't couter-productive to the program doing well. IMO, there's just nothing short of a serious felony that would cause many to consider that he's just not the right guy.
IMO some are afraid to put down their threshold, they're liable to find out just how close Tubby is to it.

I agree 100%

I think that the threshold has consistently shifted downward for some. If the question had been asked 3 years ago, the answer would've been what has culminated in the last two seasons. Now that it's here, there's very little to defend which is why one guy is going from thread to thread with just the message "Tubby is a good coach... some of you people need to get off his back" and adding nothing else.

[BrassowFan]

tdWILD wrote: BrassowFan wrote: NOWIS wrote: BrassowFan wrote: Pryor, saying what your threshold is for a coaching change isn't couter-productive to the program doing well. IMO, there's just nothing short of a serious felony that would cause many to consider that he's just not the right guy.
IMO some are afraid to put down their threshold, they're liable to find out just how close Tubby is to it.

I agree 100%

I think that the threshold has consistently shifted downward for some. If the question had been asked 3 years ago, the answer would've been what has culminated in the last two seasons. Now that it's here, there's very little to defend which is why one guy is going from thread to thread with just the message "Tubby is a good coach... some of you people need to get off his back" and adding nothing else.


because some buffoons don't want to look at the facts which show that Smith has amazing credentials, coach of the year, win/loss percentage, SEC titles and tourneys, and on and on but when you don't want to believe something you just ignore facts. i'd rather look at all the info then make a decision.

how bout you show me some facts to support your position?


What's the longest stint that UK has been out of the Top 25 since 1994? Yep, it just ended. Tubby has earned some awards but the fact is that the program slipped from Final Four contender to Sweet 16 to the program that we have now where 10 losses this season would be considered success to many.

[crazzedcats22]

because some buffoons don't want to look at the facts which show that Smith has amazing credentials, coach of the year, win/loss percentage, SEC titles and tourneys, and on and on but when you don't want to believe something you just ignore facts. i'd rather look at all the info then make a decision.

how bout you show me some facts to support your position?


What's the longest stint that UK has been out of the Top 25 since 1994? Yep, it just ended. Tubby has earned some awards but the fact is that the program slipped from Final Four contender to Sweet 16 to the program that we have now where 10 losses this season would be considered success to many.
that's the best you got? guess i shouldn't have wasted my time with you
sorry man, but I think those are all the facts you need. what else are you looking for? 10+losses would be completely unacceptable @ KU, UNC (they had 10+ losses and fired their coach-it's working ok for them now isn't it), Duke, Florida, etc....why should we be ok with it at UK????

[BrassowFan]

tdWILD wrote: BrassowFan wrote: tdWILD wrote: BrassowFan wrote: NOWIS wrote: BrassowFan wrote: Pryor, saying what your threshold is for a coaching change isn't couter-productive to the program doing well. IMO, there's just nothing short of a serious felony that would cause many to consider that he's just not the right guy.
IMO some are afraid to put down their threshold, they're liable to find out just how close Tubby is to it.

I agree 100%

I think that the threshold has consistently shifted downward for some. If the question had been asked 3 years ago, the answer would've been what has culminated in the last two seasons. Now that it's here, there's very little to defend which is why one guy is going from thread to thread with just the message "Tubby is a good coach... some of you people need to get off his back" and adding nothing else.


because some buffoons don't want to look at the facts which show that Smith has amazing credentials, coach of the year, win/loss percentage, SEC titles and tourneys, and on and on but when you don't want to believe something you just ignore facts. i'd rather look at all the info then make a decision.

how bout you show me some facts to support your position?


What's the longest stint that UK has been out of the Top 25 since 1994? Yep, it just ended. Tubby has earned some awards but the fact is that the program slipped from Final Four contender to Sweet 16 to the program that we have now where 10 losses this season would be considered success to many.
that's the best you got? guess i shouldn't have wasted my time with you


I responded with the same level of facts that you put up to support your argument.

The fact is that with a few exceptions, the vast majority of people concede that the program has slipped. In fact, I'd argue that well over 90% agree. The difference isn't about if Tubby's poor recruiting is the culprit, it's whether he's capable of turning it around.

[Mark Blueblood]

Tre Pryor wrote: BrassowFan wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.


Why not then go over to the thread "A Fair Question" and cite exactly what it would take for you to believe that it's time for Tubby to go.

I think that you and a few others are afraid to do so....

LOL. "Afraid"? Seriously? C'mon guy... you guys are just pissed because your team isn't doing well and you want someone to blame. If you want to try and pick on fans who are defending Tubby, guess again. I won't play that game.

I won't contribute to that thread because it's counter-productive to my goal, which is for the basketball program to do well. Blasting your head coach on message boards isn't a productive practice, but go right ahead if that's what you feel is the right thing to do.


But Tre...it makes them look so intelligent. And, by putting down others, it helps bolster their ego. It's human nature - "You dumb, me must be smart".

[phoenix]

crazzedcats22 wrote:
because some buffoons don't want to look at the facts which show that Smith has amazing credentials, coach of the year, win/loss percentage, SEC titles and tourneys, and on and on but when you don't want to believe something you just ignore facts. i'd rather look at all the info then make a decision.

how bout you show me some facts to support your position?


What's the longest stint that UK has been out of the Top 25 since 1994? Yep, it just ended. Tubby has earned some awards but the fact is that the program slipped from Final Four contender to Sweet 16 to the program that we have now where 10 losses this season would be considered success to many.
that's the best you got? guess i shouldn't have wasted my time with you
sorry man, but I think those are all the facts you need. what else are you looking for? 10+losses would be completely unacceptable @ KU, UNC (they had 10+ losses and fired their coach-it's working ok for them now isn't it), Duke, Florida, etc....why should we be ok with it at UK????


I think the question about facts supporting your position is a valid one, and you guys seem reluctant if not plain unable to post those rudimentary objective goals for the program. The idea that the program might fall out of the top 25 and come back in is hardly a big thing, it happens to many good teams over the course of years, and the tiny blip of time in 8-10 years is not a big thing imo, could do it with a young rebuilding team any year, big deal. There is also the constant claims of "what has happened the last couple of years", and that too is a rather absurd claim since we just went to overtime in the elite eight in the "last couple of years" and we still don't know exactly how this year finishes. The suggestion that teams (UNC, UCLA, IN) had 10 loss seasons and fired their coach isn't really relevant either since you have omitted some key facts, for instance the idea that UNC, UCLA, IN had far greater than 10 loss seasons, sometimes multiples in short periods AND LOSING SEASONS, and that all three fell out of the NCAA. Those are the facts of those matters,and does anybody think Tubby would be here ifthose situations occurred? Nonsense, he would be canned like a tuna.KU has been fairly stable with coaches, when was the last firing there? Prior to Williams I believe and hewas there a while.

The real reason these objective goals aren't listed for the UK coach is that it is much easier toimply he is failing by subjective criteria, since on most measures, objective criteriareflect a very good coach and program. As I have stated before, if your OFF years are still NCAA tourney teams that get through the first round, doesn't that entitle you to a little leeway before canning the coach? Just a thought.

I wouldn't mind if Barnhardt ornumerousKY boosters inflicted their expectations on a coach and listed them outon paper for the whole world to see, it would be an interesting proposition, andcertainly would send a message to future job applicants. Changing expectations after contracts are signed or jumping ship early on a coach, those really get to be ethical problems for the University and I don't think KY wants to go there just yet. Going forward at this point there are three scenarios that seem likely, Tubby gets a couple needed player and KY raises heck on the floor next year, Tubby doesn't get the needed players but still does "pretty well" and plays out his contract, honored by the university in spite of the probable batching, or Tubby doesn't get the players, and the team falls off the map, resulting in a quick and merciful firing or forced resignation.

I find all three of those futures livable and acceptable, won't bother me if Tubby drops into NIT world and is gone. The only foreseeable future I really don't like is the onewhere Tubby is forced outand is still doing pretty good in terms of job performance(and that is the one a bunch of fans are doing their best to orchestrate right now). I think it makes us look bad nationally, and is unfair to a good coach regardless of whatthe opposition view of his coaching is. Personally I think if Tubby's teams go grunting the next year or so, he will find it so distasteful himself that he will step down, so I am a little more laid back about our current performance where some of you are flipping out.

[BrassowFan]

Mark Blueblood wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: BrassowFan wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I'm convinced that Tubby Smith could have UK in last place for 4 years running and some of you would still be asking what was wrong with the program and still wanting to give Tubby one more year.
That's probably the dumbest thing you've ever written... and that's 4000+ comments.

Of course we wouldn't.


Why not then go over to the thread "A Fair Question" and cite exactly what it would take for you to believe that it's time for Tubby to go.

I think that you and a few others are afraid to do so....

LOL. "Afraid"? Seriously? C'mon guy... you guys are just pissed because your team isn't doing well and you want someone to blame. If you want to try and pick on fans who are defending Tubby, guess again. I won't play that game.

I won't contribute to that thread because it's counter-productive to my goal, which is for the basketball program to do well. Blasting your head coach on message boards isn't a productive practice, but go right ahead if that's what you feel is the right thing to do.


But Tre...it makes them look so intelligent. And, by putting down others, it helps bolster their ego. It's human nature - "You dumb, me must be smart".


Since this appears to have been directed towards me, I'll respond.

When I posted that, it's not as you say. I'm not saying that I'm so smart and that anyone else is dumb for holding their position. My point is that IMO the bar set for Tubby's performance appears to constantly move south to some because they do not want to accept that it might just be his fault. We hear the same excuses every year and I just think that it would be a good idea to put it out there where you think the program must sink to before a coaching change is required.

That's not to say anyone is right or wrong. I just think that it helps people understand the different thresholds that we all hold in regards to his performance.

[Art Vandelay]

phoenix wrote: crazzedcats22 wrote:
because some buffoons don't want to look at the facts which show that Smith has amazing credentials, coach of the year, win/loss percentage, SEC titles and tourneys, and on and on but when you don't want to believe something you just ignore facts. i'd rather look at all the info then make a decision.

how bout you show me some facts to support your position?


What's the longest stint that UK has been out of the Top 25 since 1994? Yep, it just ended. Tubby has earned some awards but the fact is that the program slipped from Final Four contender to Sweet 16 to the program that we have now where 10 losses this season would be considered success to many.
that's the best you got? guess i shouldn't have wasted my time with you
sorry man, but I think those are all the facts you need. what else are you looking for? 10+losses would be completely unacceptable @ KU, UNC (they had 10+ losses and fired their coach-it's working ok for them now isn't it), Duke, Florida, etc....why should we be ok with it at UK????


I think the question about facts supporting your position is a valid one, and you guys seem reluctant if not plain unable to post those rudimentary objective goals for the program. The idea that the program might fall out of the top 25 and come back in is hardly a big thing, it happens to many good teams over the course of years, and the tiny blip of time in 8-10 years is not a big thing imo, could do it with a young rebuilding team any year, big deal. There is also the constant claims of "what has happened the last couple of years", and that too is a rather absurd claim since we just went to overtime in the elite eight in the "last couple of years" and we still don't know exactly how this year finishes. The suggestion that teams (UNC, UCLA, IN) had 10 loss seasons and fired their coach isn't really relevant either since you have omitted some key facts, for instance the idea that UNC, UCLA, IN had far greater than 10 loss seasons, sometimes multiples in short periods AND LOSING SEASONS, and that all three fell out of the NCAA. Those are the facts of those matters,and does anybody think Tubby would be here ifthose situations occurred? Nonsense, he would be canned like a tuna.KU has been fairly stable with coaches, when was the last firing there? Prior to Williams I believe and hewas there a while.

The real reason these objective goals aren't listed for the UK coach is that it is much easier toimply he is failing by subjective criteria, since on most measures, objective criteriareflect a very good coach and program. As I have stated before, if your OFF years are still NCAA tourney teams that get through the first round, doesn't that entitle you to a little leeway before canning the coach? Just a thought.

I wouldn't mind if Barnhardt ornumerousKY boosters inflicted their expectations on a coach and listed them outon paper for the whole world to see, it would be an interesting proposition, andcertainly would send a message to future job applicants. Changing expectations after contracts are signed or jumping ship early on a coach, those really get to be ethical problems for the University and I don't think KY wants to go there just yet. Going forward at this point there are three scenarios that seem likely, Tubby gets a couple needed player and KY raises heck on the floor next year, Tubby doesn't get the needed players but still does "pretty well" and plays out his contract, honored by the university in spite of the probable batching, or Tubby doesn't get the players, and the team falls off the map, resulting in a quick and merciful firing or forced resignation.

I find all three of those futures livable and acceptable, won't bother me if Tubby drops into NIT world and is gone. The only foreseeable future I really don't like is the onewhere Tubby is forced outand is still doing pretty good in terms of job performance(and that is the one a bunch of fans are doing their best to orchestrate right now). I think it makes us look bad nationally, and is unfair to a good coach regardless of whatthe opposition view of his coaching is. Personally I think if Tubby's teams go grunting the next year or so, he will find it so distasteful himself that he will step down, so I am a little more laid back about our current performance where some of you are flipping out.
So you only have to be "pretty good" to be the highest paid coach in college basketball. If your standard is applied, Tubby is a lucky man.