Situational Ethics

[phoenix]

It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup

[Will Lavender]

Very interesting post.

This part is especially interesting:

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I'm curious about what others feel about that paragraph.

Related to that, here are some important questions:

What is a basketball coach supposed to be? What's he supposed to do? What's his function?

I hope this thread gets some hits and replies, because I think phoenix makes some extremely valid points. I'll come back tomorrow sometime and address the above questions.

[darksamus]

i don't which fans critized bob huggins..i surely didn't..i never said anything bad about pitino...this thread goes to show why everyone hates uk fans..they are never happy with their coach..nothing makes them happy..thats how coaching works in college basketball..support the freaking coach..quite picking apart the guy cause you have nothing better to do...maybe someone should look into your life and found out all the little things you've done to get ahead or whatever..be happy with what you got...you could've had tom crean..geezzz..uk fans are spoiled..that's why i know guys who are becoming flordia fans and louisville fans...they are happy with what they got..the fans are gonna kill uk basketball....

[CATHEAD]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup

I don't think you can compare Billy's situation with Pitino's. Any coach in G's shoes would have made the jump from A&M to UK if given the chance. Even alot of the Aggie faithful have been quoted as agreeingwith his decision, even though they don't like it. And we skewer Thuggins because he doesn't graduate his players, plays dirty, AND he recruits thugs. None of those attributes are shared by Billy.

[Will Lavender]

I agree, CATHEAD, about Pitino.

The issue with Pitino was not "desertion." Pitino was still loved by many (most?) when he went to Boston. The issue with Pitino was and is LOUISVILLE.

[CATHEAD]

darksamus wrote: i don't which fans critized bob huggins..i surely didn't..i never said anything bad about pitino...this thread goes to show why everyone hates uk fans..they are never happy with their coach..nothing makes them happy..thats how coaching works in college basketball..support the freaking coach..quite picking apart the guy cause you have nothing better to do...maybe someone should look into your life and found out all the little things you've done to get ahead or whatever..be happy with what you got...you could've had tom crean..geezzz..uk fans are spoiled..that's why i know guys who are becoming flordia fans and louisville fans...they are happy with what they got..the fans are gonna kill uk basketball....
Yeah, maybe we are a little spoiled. But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best every time out. And as far as your fence jumping buddies, I say good riddance. Let them follow the "cool" teams. We true blue bloods will carry on as usual. Let's see where the Gators and Red Birdies are in a few years.

[heatwave13]

In the eyes of many, winning somehow makes these other character issues (drinkin', thuggin', ho'in, bling-bling'in)seem to be less of a problem; which brings us back to Will's questions--What is a basketball coach supposed to be? What's he supposed to do? What's his function?

I'm not taking sides or pointing the finger because many of the negative (or character issue) things I could point out about other schools/teams, may be happening with my team.

[matt colvin]

Phoenix, to half-way address the points you're trying to make.



DUI: alright, a bad decision, but does that make him a big drinker, like Sutton was?

Recruiting: how do you know he's went to all this lengths????? I always hear Pitino was a tough recruiter, playing mind games with the guys( a la commit now or he will). AAU coaching hires, alright. A lot of people on here were clamoring for John Lucas to be offered for Jai. What's the difference????

A&M match the offer? Are you serious????? Are you suggesting that money might/should be the main decision making factor. I take that as a serious plus for Billy Clyde. The program was what allured him the MOST. Not necessarily the other "pluses", as Billy Clyde said.

You can say this stuff about just about any coach. It's that simple. I understand your apprehension given the current atmosphere, suggesting that it might be easier to make a mistake now, but we haven't learned anything about Billy Clyde and the way he works yet. There's a long time until we do too. (~7 months).



With that said, GO CATS, go Billy Clyde!!! Get those recruits!

[BigBlueAngus]

I for one as a fan love the hire. I also sincerely love the class and integrity that Tubby Smith conducted himself with, I think he represented the program beautifully.

You address several issues some I has knowledge of some I know nothing about. As for the DUI & suspected DUI...It is my understanding that he was very candid with Mitch in addressing that issue, The offenses do seem to be some time ago and I can only hope that he learned from his mistakes.

As for leaving A&M after agreeing in principal to a new contract I would simply say....Get REAL, This is KENTUCKY. BCG Never even signed that new contract, Mitch has known the A&M A.D. for over 25 years and was actually employed by him at one time....The A&M A.D. told BCG you need to listen to UK!

Don't forget Pitino got a pass from most for taking the Celtics job, RP got boiled for taking the UofL job!

As for the recruiting I can't say because I don't know, I can say that I personally want the UK mantle operated the right way...I do have confidence that Mitch Barnhart is not a win at all cost guy and will hold BCG to the highest of standards. I think BCG will be a great seller of the university to recruits and I think we have enough to offer that we can get great recruits without any shenanigans...I do feel that recruiting and college athletics is alot more seedy than any of us care to really know (much more grey area than color).

I am very excited about this hire, I don't think there is anything so greivous in BCG's past that would warrant him not receiving this opportunity...He has my total and unqualified support.

Go CATS!

[UKfaninCO]

Ethics is a slippery subject, indeed. One man's ethics is not the same as the next man. I try not to judge a man by his mistakes, but by whether he learns from those mistakes and trys to do better. I've made many mistakes in my life and have been fortunate on a number of occasions that they didn't have any real affect on my life. Other times they have had monumental effects. I've left good jobs to take better jobs. Does that make me unethical? I don't think so. I like to think that I tried to do what was best for me and my family. I usually do what I think is right and as long as I don't hurt anyone else in the process it doesn't bump up against my ethical beliefs. Do I think that BCG is a bad person for getting a DUI? No. I don't believe that about anyone. I've seen lots of good people get them. Everone has a lapse in judgement from time to time, everyone has made mistakes.

There are some people that are going to be critical of others no matter what. There are always hypocrites in every crowd speaking out of both sides of their mouths. It's inevitable. Try not to judge those people too harshly either.

[colonelcatfan]

I must admit that anytime I see a new coach get big time recruits at a school that couldnt land them before, I get very suspicious. Ive been saying all year that Ohio State may be in trouble in a couple of years. A&M surely also looks the same way. I have no hint of evidence, it just looks suspicious. Hopefully thereare no infractions. I am very happy with Coach G. I pray that he does things the right way. I dont want to see shady practices at any school. But I also hope that the UK athletic department watches very closely, just in case.

As far as thug type recruits, has anyone heard anything like this from UTEP or A&M? Billys DUIs are a concern, but I have to believe that Mitch is satisfied there is no problem there or Billy wouldnt be here.

As for Huggins, look at his graduation rates, need we say more?

[Mountain Cat]

A basketball coach is supposed to win games and maintain technicalcompliance to the rules. If they do those two things, then nothing else matters.

[CATHEAD]

Will Lavender wrote: I agree, CATHEAD, about Pitino.

The issue with Pitino was not "desertion." Pitino was still loved by many (most?) when he went to Boston. The issue with Pitino was and is LOUISVILLE.

Exactly. I became a Boston fan the day he was hired, and I disowned him the day Jurich's plane brought him to Louisville.

[emily8]

Mountain Cat wrote: A basketball coach is supposed to win games and maintain technicalcompliance to the rules. If they do those two things, then nothing else matters.

Yes, win games! Please no NCAA violations.Other then that..go for it big man. Do we really care aboutBG'spast? Especially considering what we haveheard about his past isjust a bunch of maybes and might haves. Suspicion and conviction are two different things. Give him a chance.

[Will Lavender]

emily8 wrote: Mountain Cat wrote: A basketball coach is supposed to win games and maintain technicalcompliance to the rules. If they do those two things, then nothing else matters.

Yes, win games! Please no NCAA violations.Other then that..go for it big man. Do we really care aboutBG'spast? Especially considering what we haveheard about his past isjust a bunch of maybes and might haves. Suspicion and conviction are two different things. Give him a chance.



I'm not sure that phoenix is asking about whether or not we care.

His point seems to be this: Isn't it hypocritical to blast coaches for something, and then get behind a coach who has been blamed for -- or even convicted of -- doing the same things?

I'm not even sure it's important, in that context, whether what Gillispie has done is true or not. After all, we don't usually care if Huggins or Coach K or whomever is actually guilty, do we? If it's in the news, if the coach has been accused, we begin to rip him apart.

[professorcrowe]

say what you want...I need a coach who wins championships not builds moral character...leave that for the preacher. Don't break any rules and I don't care what you do to win. Even if it means hiring AAU coaches. Taking the moral high ground got us NOWHERE. Call me the arrogant UK fan that ESPN talks about and I say BULL. We should be better than the rest of the country regardless of how many great athletes there are out there. Coach Clyde wants championshipsand as long asour playersdon't have to get others to take SATs or ACTS, take huge gifts from boosters (which most likely still occured during Pitino's reign), or we illegally recruit, I don't give a rat's *** what or who it takes to win. The tradition is WINNING, folks not BEING THEGOOD GUY. Iwould love it if the rest of the country hated Billy G as long as we were in it for the trophy!

[CATHEAD]

professorcrowe wrote: say what you want...I need a coach who wins championships not builds moral character...leave that for the preacher. Don't break any rules and I don't care what you do to win. Even if it means hiring AAU coaches. Taking the moral high ground got us NOWHERE. Call me the arrogant UK fan that ESPN talks about and I say BULLsh**. We should be better than the rest of the country regardless of how many great athletes there are out there. Coach Clyde wants championshipsand as long asour playersdon't have to get others to take SATs or ACTS, take huge gifts from boosters (which most likely still occured during Pitino's reign), or we illegally recruit, I don't give a rat's *** what or who it takes to win. The tradition is WINNING, folks not BEING THEGOOD GUY. Iwould love it if the rest of the country hated Billy G as long as we were in it for the trophy!
Easy big fella. Don't get me wrong, nobody wants to see #8 inthe rafters worse than me, but we need to keep some dignity in getting it.

[Wildcat Larry]

First of all, it seems to me like the poster is searching for the negatives and he would be doing the same with any coach named because of the terrible "tubby hangover" that he has displayed in post after post. However, if the post could be taken at face value, then I think FCFS82's post is very important.

There is a HUGE difference in beingcharged and being found guilty of DUI. With Huggins we all got to see himfall all over himself, obviously intoxicated, on the police video that was released. On the other hand, as FCFS82 mentioned, the police actually questioned their actions more than Gillispie's.

Officially, at least court record wise, BG has not been found guilty of a DUI. He admitted mistakes and has apparently learned from the experience. I would not want someone to hold against me stuff in my past that I've learned from and corrected, so I don't choose to hold such things against others.

The past is just that, the past.

[countrycat]

I guess Billy clyde could be like our previous coach. He as far as I know never drank alchohol, cursed or lied. He also IMHO was unable to coach at UK effectively the last few years. I personally don't think he had enough drive to recuit effectively or to develop the players he did have to there full potential.

Also I have tothink MB has more sense than to hire someone with a serious drinking problem. Thats what they are there for, to protect the program.

That brings me to Pitino. I had no problem with him going to Boston, but when he went to looserville thats when I lost all respect for him.

I accept Billy G is going to need to earn respect from fans, but personally I am more excited about next season than I have been in years. And hopefully not to long until another championship.



GO BIG BLUE

[ukcat1]

I live in Northern KY and think Huggins took a lot of heat for his dui. Seeing the arrest on CNN headline news every 30 minutes for 36 hours was not a pretty sight. It certainly was not what we or anyone would have wanted for their coach or their university.

[KYISSUPREME]

You know, as a general rule I try to be positive, but am of a negative nature. Being positive is something I have to work at. But not in this case. Sure, he has had some judgment issues with alcohol. But how many of our members have? I am not going to cast the first stone. He is a human being. In the lime light or not, a human. If he follows all of the myriad NCAA rules and wins, what more can we ask? His personal life is his persoanl life, and he is intitled to it. And I don't remember ANY recruiting funny business with the guy. Could be wrong on that, but I haven't heard about. Nobody seems to recall Coach Kyrdfsjkdsujdgk's alcohol abuse at Duke that got hushed up. He is made a saint in the national media. I think Coach Gillispie was a great hire and will whole-heartedly support him. I really don't like this thread. Why go looking for trouble. This is such a great time to be a UK fan.

[matt colvin]

KYISSUPREME wrote: Nobody seems to recall Coach Kyrdfsjkdsujdgk's alcohol abuse at Duke that got hushed up. He is made a saint in the national media. I think Coach Gillispie was a great hire and will whole-heartedly support him. I really don't like this thread. Why go looking for trouble. This is such a great time to be a UK fan.

:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

Nice post :wildcatface

It's sad that a posteris digging up junk, much like the cardinal fans link earlier, to spray our new coach. In this case it seems to be a post-Tubby-mancrush hangover.

Again, go CATS, and go Billy Clyde!

[KYISSUPREME]

professorcrowe wrote: say what you want...I need a coach who wins championships not builds moral character...leave that for the preacher. Don't break any rules and I don't care what you do to win. Even if it means hiring AAU coaches. Taking the moral high ground got us NOWHERE. Call me the arrogant UK fan that ESPN talks about and I say BULLsh**. We should be better than the rest of the country regardless of how many great athletes there are out there. Coach Clyde wants championshipsand as long asour playersdon't have to get others to take SATs or ACTS, take huge gifts from boosters (which most likely still occured during Pitino's reign), or we illegally recruit, I don't give a rat's *** what or who it takes to win. The tradition is WINNING, folks not BEING THEGOOD GUY. Iwould love it if the rest of the country hated Billy G as long as we were in it for the trophy!
I kind of agree, being the nice guy got us nowhere and we are still hated. I am not suggesting that I support him at all costs. Like, if he turns out to be a rapist or bank robber. UK is paying this guy to win games and not break rules. If he does that, leave him alone. He's golden.

[ukfanman]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup


With a jackass posting such as this, I really have to wonder why anyone would ever want to coach basketball at UK.

Just give him time when UK loses 3 in a row, then we can call for him to be fired.

In the meantime, just feed him to the lions.

[DCWildcat]

There's quite a difference between being charged (and not convicted) for a DUI and throwing up all over yourself and car when the cop pulls you over. Twice.

Not sure where the thug recruiting comes from. Texas A&M players haven't been getting into tons of trouble or anything, and no Caliparian fur coats either.

Pitino is called "Traitor Rick" because he jumped to the NBA (and I don't think many blamed him for that), then came back to the hated rival. Gillespie has not done that.

If these situations were roughly equivalent, then I think you'd have more of an argument, phoenix.

[scathendo]

mb stressed many times that we will win the right way... he's said it about all of the sports at UK. he said it at the pep rally... that's about all the assurance i can ask for as a fan regarding recruiting. if the ncaa would get off it's bloated arse and start making the student/athlete the top priority again then it could probably do alot to take the corruption out of 'amature' athletics.

per the dwi stuff... been there, done that. not proud of it and luckily nobody got hurt. but it has very little to do with who i am today. chances are just as good that coach learned his lesson the same as i did. he seems driven to be a winner and winner's don't get to be winner's by making the same mistakes over and over.

[RV]

For the record Billy Gilly has had no DUI convictions so please stop inferring such. People move from job to joband network in the private sector all the time using 'questionable ethics' and nothing is said. Not saying it's right or wrong - just a fact of life. Point of fact, player's and coaches both use their abilities and connections to better themselves but it's more in the public eye. I, for one, have no problem with our new coach's past nor have I cast aspersions like those alluded to originally.

Furthermore http://media.scout.com/media/image/18/187735.gif

[scathendo]

RV wrote:
[b][color=blue]For the record Billy Gilly has had no DUI convictions so please stop inferring such.Â*


for the record: here's the record...
via the CJ.....http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007704070302

"According to court records, Gillispie, while an assistant coach at the University of Tulsa, was charged on Oct. 28, 1999, with driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor.

He pleaded guilty to an amended charge of reckless driving, paid fines totaling $593, and was ordered to complete 80 hours in a county work program.

Four years later, Gillispie was stopped again on a suspicion of drunk driving, this time in El Paso, Texas, where he was in his first year as head coach at University of Texas at El Paso.

According to news accounts, Gillispie refused a breath test on Jan. 26, 2003, and was released.

He then was arrested a few hours later and charged with driving while intoxicated.

A police investigation found that Gillispie had four to five drinks over three hours, and a special prosecutor, Marc Rosales, asked that the charge be dismissed when police toxicologists concluded that Gillispie’s drug-alcohol level would have been lower than the legal limit.

Gillispie denied he was drunk.

A judge dismissed the charge, and it was later expunged, according to the El Paso County Clerk’s office.

The El Paso Times reported that Gillispie was arrested on suspicion of drunk driving at 2:20 a.m. a few hours after one of UTEP’s six wins that season, when he was seen driving the wrong way down a one-way street.

Gillispie, who had moved to El Paso just a few months earlier, said he’d gotten lost.
In an interview, Rosales, the prosecutor, said yesterday that he didn’t think that Gillispie should have been charged and that he was treated more harshly than an ordinary citizen because he was so well known."

[ukfanman]

scathendo wrote: RV wrote:
[b][color=blue]For the record Billy Gilly has had no DUI convictions so please stop inferring such.


for the record: here's the record...
via the CJ.....http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007704070302

"According to court records, Gillispie, while an assistant coach at the University of Tulsa, was charged on Oct. 28, 1999, with driving while under the influence of intoxicating liquor.

He pleaded guilty to an amended charge of reckless driving, paid fines totaling $593, and was ordered to complete 80 hours in a county work program.

Four years later, Gillispie was stopped again on a suspicion of drunk driving, this time in El Paso, Texas, where he was in his first year as head coach at University of Texas at El Paso.

According to news accounts, Gillispie refused a breath test on Jan. 26, 2003, and was released.

He then was arrested a few hours later and charged with driving while intoxicated.

A police investigation found that Gillispie had four to five drinks over three hours, and a special prosecutor, Marc Rosales, asked that the charge be dismissed when police toxicologists concluded that Gillispie’s drug-alcohol level would have been lower than the legal limit.

Gillispie denied he was drunk.

A judge dismissed the charge, and it was later expunged, according to the El Paso County Clerk’s office.

The El Paso Times reported that Gillispie was arrested on suspicion of drunk driving at 2:20 a.m. a few hours after one of UTEP’s six wins that season, when he was seen driving the wrong way down a one-way street.

Gillispie, who had moved to El Paso just a few months earlier, said he’d gotten lost.
In an interview, Rosales, the prosecutor, said yesterday that he didn’t think that Gillispie should have been charged and that he was treated more harshly than an ordinary citizen because he was so well known."

OK. The man needs to be fired. Now you go find a new coach who will live up to every UKfan's expectaions of a national championship for the next 9 years in a row.

Looked in the mirror lately??? I made a few mistakes, truth be known you have also.

[BigblueDrew]

The old Confucious motto about "whose ox is in the ditch" might apply here, but personallyI don't care. The DUI thing was dropped by authorities, good enough for me, this is America after all(innocent till proven guilty). As for recruiting the man has never been cited for breaking rules so just what is considered obsessive recruiting, perhaps sitting in the high school parking lot of a recruit for 2 hours(Billy Donovan), or maybe telling scurilous lies disparaging another competing school(Roy Williams), I really don't see Pheonix's point there. If Coach G recruits without violating rules it is irrelavent to me what he does to close the deal. As for his breaking a commitment to take a better job, how many of us would turn down a job as CEO of Microsoft(with a huge pay raise) to stay at a small computer company. Granted a few of us might but if our careers were of paramount importance to us we wouldn't. Coach G's adult life appears to be devoted to the pursuit of excellence in the game of college basketball, CAN anyone(that doesn't have an agenda) really say it a flaw in a coaches charecter to come from Texas A&M to Kentucky. The guy is driven to be the best, of COURSE he wanted to come to Kentucky. As for the AAU thing, it is a REALITY in todays recruiting game that these guys have an inordinate amount of power and influence in this process. If hiring one of them to enhance our position in the recruiting wars(and don't kid yourself thats EXACTLY what they are) happens on occasion WHY is this a problem, especially if they can coach the game. Hypocrisy and piety are very different words with very similiar meanings, that is sort of how I feel about this topic.We should strive to be less hypocritical BUT that doesn't mean that we become so pious and judgemental that we ignore reality. Big time programs need big time coaches, I think we have one andI will take him warts and all.

[WildFan]

Look at Texas A&M's roster 18 out of 20 are from Texas. How does that in any way shape or form make anyone suggest seedy recruiting? Many also were steping up from JUCO/CC.

People please at least take a look before you post some of this stuff.

As for the DUI does anyone know when? Do you have any stats on the number of DUIs in this country each year. Each day? Hopefully he learned something from this.

I keep hearing about his work ethic, can't think that somebody with that type work ethic is that bad away from work.





1
Law, Acie (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7270&YOS=2007)

6'-3"
195
Sr-3L
Dallas, Texas (Kimball)



3
Roland, Derrick (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7902&YOS=2007)

6'-4"
185
Fr-HS
Dallas, Texas (Seagoville)



4
Johnson, Jerrod (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7858&YOS=2007)

6'-6"
220
Fr-HS
Humble, Texas (Humble)



5
Graham, Bryson (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7903&YOS=2007)

6'-3"
195
Jr-TR
San Antonio, Texas (Reagan/Lon Morris JC)



12
Blackburn, Brian (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7515&YOS=2007)

5'-10"
165
Sr-2L
La Vernia, Texas (La Vernia)



13
Beasley, Bryan (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7904&YOS=2007)

6'-0"
185
Fr-HS
Pflugerville, Texas (Pflugerville)



14
Johnston, Josh (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7410&YOS=2007)

6'-2"
165
Sr-1L
Lumberton, Texas (Lumberton/Lon Morris JC/UTEP)



15
Sloan, Donald (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7905&YOS=2007)

6'-2"
210
Fr-HS
Dallas, Texas (Seagoville)



20
Lee, Logan (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7413&YOS=2007)

6'-2"
185
Sr-1L
San Antonio, Texas (Marshall/South Plains CC/Hawai'i)



22
Kirk, Dominique (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7412&YOS=2007)

6'-3"
180
Jr-2L
Dallas, Texas (Bryan Adams)



23
Carter, Josh (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7689&YOS=2007)

6'-7"
195
So-1L
Dallas, Texas (Lake Highlands)



24
Schepel, Shawn (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7954&YOS=2007)

6'-3"
200
Fr-HS
Dallas, Texas (Flower Mound)



30
Jones, Joseph (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7411&YOS=2007)

6'-9"
250
Jr-2L
Normangee, Texas (Normangee)



31
Chapman, Chris (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7955&YOS=2007)

5'-11"
170
Fr-HS
Houston, Texas (Memorial)



32
Muhlbach, Beau (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7693&YOS=2007)

6'-4"
200
Jr-1L
Lufkin, Texas (Lufkin/Arizona)



34
Davis, Bryan (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7906&YOS=2007)

6'-9"
245
Fr-HS
Dallas, Texas (Grand Prairie)



40
Weishuhn, Slade (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7416&YOS=2007)

6'-9"
225
So-1L
Wall, Texas (Wall)



41
Elonu, Chinemelu (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7735&YOS=2007)

6'-10"
225
Fr-RS
Houston, Texas (Alief Elsik)



42
Pompey, Marlon (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7273&YOS=2007)

6'-8"
225
Sr-3L
Toronto, Ont. (Winchendon [MA] Prep)



44
Kavaliauskas, Antanas (http://www.aggieathletics.com/bios.php?SID=MBB&PID=7690&YOS=2007)

6'-10"
250
Sr-1L
Vilnius, Lithuania (/Barton County CC)

[CurlyCat]

darksamus wrote: i don't which fans critized bob huggins..i surely didn't..i never said anything bad about pitino...this thread goes to show why everyone hates uk fans..they are never happy with their coach..nothing makes them happy..thats how coaching works in college basketball..support the freaking coach..quite picking apart the guy cause you have nothing better to do...maybe someone should look into your life and found out all the little things you've done to get ahead or whatever..be happy with what you got...you could've had tom crean..geezzz..uk fans are spoiled..that's why i know guys who are becoming flordia fans and louisville fans...they are happy with what they got..the fans are gonna kill uk basketball....
First of all, I'm one of a few million who have criticized Bob Thuggins. Saying you can't imagine what fans would criticize him is certainly born of ignorance, or having lived WAY UP in the mountains the last 20 years without a TV or phone.

Secondly, this is one of the very first, and few, posts that are suggesting a polar opposite take on the hire. I am not even sure phoenix hates the hire. My take is that it worries him, because he has heard things that are unsettling. I'm doubting there is much proof in those statements, but troubling just the same.

Regarding recruiting violations, are you sure you don't have your Texas coaches crossed? As I was told, those allegations were directed at Rick Barnes, not Gillispie.

Obviously darksamus, since you are NOT a UK fan and just popped in to make a generalization about something which you KNOW NOT, you couldn't really understand that we are overwhelmingly in support of Coach Gillaspie. So, you're forgiven for your bandwagon prejudice and overall ignorance. At least your ignorance is among good company.

[TransientAlum]

Wildcat Larry wrote: First of all, it seems to me like the poster is searching for the negatives and he would be doing the same with any coach named because of the terrible "tubby hangover" that he has displayed in post after post. However, if the post could be taken at face value, then I think FCFS82's post is very important.

There is a HUGE difference in beingcharged and being found guilty of DUI. With Huggins we all got to see himfall all over himself, obviously intoxicated, on the police video that was released. On the other hand, as FCFS82 mentioned, the police actually questioned their actions more than Gillispie's.

Officially, at least court record wise, BG has not been found guilty of a DUI. He admitted mistakes and has apparently learned from the experience. I would not want someone to hold against me stuff in my past that I've learned from and corrected, so I don't choose to hold such things against others.

The past is just that, the past.

As long as nothing like this happens again, meaning no DUI or drug convictions, no issue. If it were tohappen we would need to support his removal as hard as that might be to swallow.

[scathendo]

ukfanman wrote:
scathendo wrote: RV wrote:
[b][color=blue]For the record Billy Gilly has had no DUI convictions so please stop inferring such.Â*


]"

OK.Â* The man needs to be fired.Â* Now you go find a new coach who will live up to every UKÂ*fan's expectaions of a national championship for the next 9 years in a row.

Looked in the mirror lately???Â* I made a few mistakes, truth be known you have also.


hey man...step back and take a look at the previous posts!!!!

'truth be known' i don't think you know me but i admitted to having almost the same exact mistakes in my past... i also said i learned from mine (by looking in the mirror) and i was willing to bet coach did too. i posted this because someone earlier asked for the 'stats'... i found them and posted them...'for the record'. to me it looks like your attacking the poster (me) and if i had less class i'd fire back but i'll leave that to the mods.

[RxRusty]

Here are my thoughts...

I will only judge Billy G on what happens at UK. He has a clean slate. He has a couple of years to bring us back to where we feel like we have a shot (not necessarily get there) at the final four every year.

So far I like what I see. He is doing and saying all the right things. He's my coach. I fully support him. I am as excited as I've ever been about UK Basketball, and let me tell you...I've always been VERY excited.

Go Billy G!!!
Go CATS!!!

[CurlyCat]

RxRusty wrote: Here are my thoughts...

I will only judge Billy G on what happens at UK. He has a clean slate. He has a couple of years to bring us back to where we feel like we have a shot (not necessarily get there) at the final four every year.

So far I like what I see. He is doing and saying all the right things. He's my coach. I fully support him. I am as excited as I've ever been about UK Basketball, and let me tell you...I've always been VERY excited.

Go Billy G!!!
Go CATS!!!

Good, logical points and I agree.

If phoenix is thinking of a recently hired coach who really had a big NCAA cloud over his head enroute to the new job, you must be thinking of our neighbors to the north, Indiana and Kelvin Sampson.

Sampson leaves Oklahoma amid an investigation for possible recruiting violations. The NCAA is looking into more than 550 impermissible phone calls to recruits by Sampson and his assistant coaches.

Billy Gillispie has done nothing of the sort!

[kain123]

give me a break! i get so tired of the media and ethics police i get sick. i could'nt figure out why my son keep getting in trouble with the police when he was partying in HS. when i was younger (back in the sixties), i got pulled over a few times and the police chewed me out and told me to go home. now there is" no tolerance". drinking and driving don't mix, but how many of youhave been out for dinner with your family and been pulled over or were stopped at a police check and worried about the drink you had with dinner, or wished your wife had been driving? we all should learn from our mistakes, just maybe, coach gillespie has too

[Art Vandelay]

I like the way everybody seems to accept Phoenix's premise that Coach Gillespie is somehow unethical and immoral and was hired despite that because we need to turn things around. I haven't seen or heard anything about Coach Gillespie to indicate this premise is valid.

The values I see exemplified in this coach are the rewards of hard work and perserverance. This man worked his way up from the high school ranks to this point by getting results at each stop. I haven't heard anything from anybody to indicate he ever broke the rules. I have no problem with any coach doing any and everything legally possible to land top recruits for this university. As for the DUI, even if it wasn't dropped, which it was, there are plenty of nonalcoholics that have the bad luck to be arrested for DUI. It doesn't make you a bad person.

I think Phoenix is still sulking over his boy Tubby running off to Minnessota. I am ecstatic about Coach Gillespie coaching the Cats. I hope all those folks that used to whine about everybody supporting the coach and being more positive will join me in supporting Coach Gillespie. Threads like this one aren't a very good start, however.

[Will Lavender]

Art Vandelay wrote: I like the way everybody seems to accept Phoenix's premise that Coach Gillespie is somehow unethical and immoral and was hired despite that because we need to turn things around. I haven't seen or heard anything about Coach Gillespie to indicate this premise is valid.

I'm not sure who is accepting it. Have you read the thread? Seems like everybody disagrees with phoenix's assertions.

To me, however, the thread is interesting not because of what it says about Gillispie, but what it asks about our "relationship" with other coaches.

Again, it doesn't matter if an opposing coach is proven guilty. He's blasted upon being accused.

Phoenix seems to be -- and I use the word "seems" only because I don't know phoenix's motivation for starting the thread -- asking, "Why are our fans suddenly silent now that our coach has been accused of similar things?"

I have to admit: if a rival coach had hired AAU coaches, I would jump on the "He's unethical!" bandwagon. If a rival coach had even been accused of DUI, I would bring that up in an attempt to smear the coach.

It's interesting that we give Gillispie a pass because he's ours.

HOWEVER: I think he deserves that pass for all the reasons mentioned above.

I love Gillispie. But I do think phoenix catches fans -- and it's certainly not just at UK, it's everywhere -- in a bit of hypocrisy here.

[Will Lavender]

kain123 wrote: give me a break! i get so tired of the media and ethics police i get sick. i could'nt figure out why my son keep getting in trouble with the police when he was partying in HS. when i was younger (back in the sixties), i got pulled over a few times and the police chewed me out and told me to go home. now there is" no tolerance". drinking and driving don't mix, but how many of youhave been out for dinner with your family and been pulled over or were stopped at a police check and worried about the drink you had with dinner, or wished your wife had been driving? we all should learn from our mistakes, just maybe, coach gillespie has too
Weird post.

Tough to make somebody "learn from [their] mistakes" if all they're getting is a chewing out from the police.

I don't know about you, but butt-chewings have no effect whatsoever on me. I'd just go back and continue the same behavior as before.

I drive around with a young child in my car all the time. To me, drunk driving is COMPLETELY unacceptable. We shouldn't simply sweep Gillispie's record under the rug. He messed up. Covering it up and acting like it never occurred is good for nobody.

[UKfaninCO]

Will Lavender wrote: kain123 wrote: give me a break! i get so tired of the media and ethics police i get sick. i could'nt figure out why my son keep getting in trouble with the police when he was partying in HS. when i was younger (back in the sixties), i got pulled over a few times and the police chewed me out and told me to go home. now there is" no tolerance". drinking and driving don't mix, but how many of youhave been out for dinner with your family and been pulled over or were stopped at a police check and worried about the drink you had with dinner, or wished your wife had been driving? we all should learn from our mistakes, just maybe, coach gillespie has too
Weird post.

Tough to make somebody "learn from [their] mistakes" if all they're getting is a chewing out from the police.

I don't know about you, but butt-chewings have no effect whatsoever on me. I'd just go back and continue the same behavior as before.

I drive around with a young child in my car all the time. To me, drunk driving is COMPLETELY unacceptable. We shouldn't simply sweep Gillispie's record under the rug. He messed up. Covering it up and acting like it never occurred is good for nobody.

Well, being arrested and getting "a butt-chewing" from the police is an entirely different matter. Cop pulls me over, sobriety tests me, chews me out for having a couple of drinks and driving around and lets me go that's one thing. Putting me in cuffs and driving me to jail is another thing entirely. Whether or not I'm fined or found innocent or whatever, that makes the newspaper and folks are asking questions, and my reputation suffers. It is completely unacceptable to be driving around drunk. But there are also different definitions for drunk. I'm a pretty big guy and I can drink a few and not be drunk. Legalities being what they are define being drunk as having a certain blood alcohol level. But some people are drunk before they reach that level and some people are not drunk at that level. Now I'm not going to argue about whether Billy G was drunk or not, he was not convicted of it in either case, but his reputation has certainly taken a hit for it. While it doesn't fall under the character assasination category, it is certainly an indicator if it keeps happening. A DUI charge or convictionshould not ruin your life, it should teach you to do better though.

[RV]

"As for the DUI does anyone know when? Do you have any stats on the number of DUIs in this country each year. Each day? Hopefully he learned something from this."


One more time with feeling:

Whie he has been arrested twice, COACH BILLY CLYDE GILLISPIE HAS NO CONVICTIONS FOR DUI (DRIVING UNDER the INFLUENCE).Period - end of story.

I can't make this anyclearer! :dmad:

[rickdacatkilla]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup


Cudos, I give you credit forat least looking at the other side of the hire. I've seen post on hereranging from "we didn't want Billy D to Billy G NEVER had a run in with the law, there is no proof". All that being said, very brave post on your part, but I really think you guys got a great coach as long as he doesn't revert back to some of the things in his past.

[poodoo]

Will Lavender wrote:



Phoenix seems to be -- and I use the word "seems" only because I don't know phoenix's motivation for starting the thread -- asking, "Why are our fans suddenly silent now that our coach has been accused of similar things?"

I have to admit: if a rival coach had hired AAU coaches, I would jump on the "He's unethical!" bandwagon. If a rival coach had even been accused of DUI, I would bring that up in an attempt to smear the coach.

It's interesting that we give Gillispie a pass because he's ours.

HOWEVER: I think he deserves that pass for all the reasons mentioned above.

I love Gillispie. But I do think phoenix catches fans -- and it's certainly not just at UK, it's everywhere -- in a bit of hypocrisy here.










Will, FWIW, I hear you. Yes,our differing reactions for our own coach and rivals' coachesdoes have something to do with human nature, and, yes, we humans can be hypocritical. So regardless of phoenix's motivation, that point is legitimate.

Having said that, I think some of the examples are exaggerations. No, I don't think Gillispie can fairly be compared to Huggins (graduation rates, thuggery, etc.)or Pitino (his move to Louisville). Too, I have read NOTHING about Gillispie's running an unclean program.

Most of all, though, I think it's basically irrelevant BECAUSE of how this administration would react in the event of ANY problems HERE. Too, I will give credit to most of fans in thinking that they would agree that Gillispie would have to go IF there were a DUI here, or if there were any signs of running an unclean program.

I do NOT think that will ever happen. Yes, as I heard on the radio, Gillispie may be more willing to talk with former AAU coaches. Yet, I think he knows he cannot keep a job here unless he recruits TOTALLY LEGALLY (besides taking no chances of getting a DUI). I think he will do just that. I think Gillispie's aGOOD guy,and I am excited about the hire and theFUTURE. :)

[poodoo]

Will Lavender wrote:



Phoenix seems to be -- and I use the word "seems" only because I don't know phoenix's motivation for starting the thread -- asking, "Why are our fans suddenly silent now that our coach has been accused of similar things?"

I have to admit: if a rival coach had hired AAU coaches, I would jump on the "He's unethical!" bandwagon. If a rival coach had even been accused of DUI, I would bring that up in an attempt to smear the coach.

It's interesting that we give Gillispie a pass because he's ours.

HOWEVER: I think he deserves that pass for all the reasons mentioned above.

I love Gillispie. But I do think phoenix catches fans -- and it's certainly not just at UK, it's everywhere -- in a bit of hypocrisy here.










Will, FWIW, I hear you. Yes,our differing reactions for our own coach and rivals' coachesdoes have something to do with human nature, and, yes, we humans can be hypocritical. So regardless of phoenix's motivation, that point is legitimate.

Having said that, I think some of the examples are exaggerations. No, I don't think Gillispie can fairly be compared to Huggins (graduation rates, thuggery, etc.)or Pitino (his move to Louisville). Too, I have read NOTHING about Gillispie's running an unclean program.

Most of all, though, I think it's basically irrelevant BECAUSE of how this administration would react in the event of ANY problems HERE. Too, I will give credit to most of fans in thinking that they would agree that Gillispie would have to go IF there were a DUI here, or if there were any signs of running an unclean program.

I do NOT think that will ever happen. Yes, as I heard on the radio, Gillispie may be more willing to talk with former AAU coaches. Yet, I think he knows he cannot keep a job here unless he recruits TOTALLY LEGALLY (besides taking no chances of getting a DUI). I think he will do just that. I think Gillispie's aGOOD guy,and I am excited about the hire and theFUTURE. :)

[CurlyCat]

poodoo wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Phoenix seems to be -- and I use the word "seems" only because I don't know phoenix's motivation for starting the thread -- asking, "Why are our fans suddenly silent now that our coach has been accused of similar things?"

I have to admit: if a rival coach had hired AAU coaches, I would jump on the "He's unethical!" bandwagon. If a rival coach had even been accused of DUI, I would bring that up in an attempt to smear the coach.

It's interesting that we give Gillispie a pass because he's ours.

HOWEVER: I think he deserves that pass for all the reasons mentioned above.

I love Gillispie. But I do think phoenix catches fans -- and it's certainly not just at UK, it's everywhere -- in a bit of hypocrisy here.
Will, FWIW, I hear you. Yes,our differing reactions for our own coach and rivals' coachesdoes have something to do with human nature, and, yes, we humans can be hypocritical. So regardless of phoenix's motivation, that point is legitimate.

Having said that, I think some of the examples are exaggerations. No, I don't think Gillispie can fairly be compared to Huggins (graduation rates, thuggery, etc.)or Pitino (his move to Louisville). Too, I have read NOTHING about Gillispie's running an unclean program.

Most of all, though, I think it's basically irrelevant BECAUSE of how this administration would react in the event of ANY problems HERE. Too, I will give credit to most of fans in thinking that they would agree that Gillispie would have to go IF there were a DUI here, or if there were any signs of running an unclean program.

I do NOT think that will ever happen. Yes, as I heard on the radio, Gillispie may be more willing to talk with former AAU coaches. Yet, I think he knows he cannot keep a job here unless he recruits TOTALLY LEGALLY (besides taking no chances of getting a DUI). I think he will do just that. I think Gillispie's aGOOD guy,and I am excited about the hire and theFUTURE. :)

Good post poodoo, I agree wholeheartedly! :thumbup

[Mountain Cat]

RV wrote: "As for the DUI does anyone know when? Do you have any stats on the number of DUIs in this country each year. Each day? Hopefully he learned something from this."


One more time with feeling:

Whie he has been arrested twice, COACH BILLY CLYDE GILLISPIE HAS NO CONVICTIONS FOR DUI (DRIVING UNDER the INFLUENCE).Period - end of story.

I can't make this anyclearer! :dmad:


I kinda like a coach that his been arrested.:thumbup :beer:Imagine the street cred with the recruits.:shrug::lol:

Just win the games, and don't cheat. All the other stuff is crap for losers to worry about.

[kain123]

if you had taken the time to read my post you would have seen that the "butt chewings" happenedback in the 60's.some policemen back then were not pressured to issue a citation and the "butt chewings" worked in most cases. today,young peopleare held to a higher standard. if you personally do not know of at least one student athlete in HS or college that made any simular mistake (dui, drugs, curfew, etc), i would say you don't get out much. some of these athlete's ended a promising future on one mistake.although i do not drink, i expect everyone else on the road to be sober, but i am realistic enough to know this will not happen. coach gillespie put those citations on the table and was honest about it. i am not going to read anything else into it.

[Will Lavender]

kain123 wrote: if you had taken the time to read my post you would have seen that the "butt chewings" happenedback in the 60's.some policemen back then were not pressured to issue a citation and the "butt chewings" worked in most cases. today,young peopleare held to a higher standard. if you personally do not know of at least one student athlete in HS or college that made any simular mistake (dui, drugs, curfew, etc), i would say you don't get out much. some of these athlete's ended a promising future on one mistake.although i do not drink, i expect everyone else on the road to be sober, but i am realistic enough to know this will not happen. coach gillespie put those citations on the table and was honest about it. i am not going to read anything else into it.
I read the post. The whole thing, every word.

What you were pretty clearly doing was suggesting that the police were too hard on kids these days -- your son in particular. You, on the other hand, simply got butt-chewings and were sent on your way when you were a kid. You lamented the fact that the"ethics police" and the real police are too hard on kids; they cite them, or arrest them, when they should simply chew them out.

Tell me that's not what you were saying in that original post.

And again: I completely, absolutely, 100% disagree with that sort of notion.

If you screw up, own it.

[Mountain Cat]

FWIW, having lived in TX in the past, drinking and driving is much more commonplace in TX than most of the country. When I lived there it was legal to have an open beverage in the car....in your hand.....as long as the cop didn't actually see you drinking it. :lol:

TX is TX. I was very paranoid when I moved there because most of the TX friends I made would drink a beer while we drove around to places. Those boys drink a lot of beer too. I think part of it is that you can't get anyplace in TX without driving 50 miles round trip. Far and wide spread out place.

Anyway, much ado about nothing.

[blueheretic]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup


It's sports. It's entertainment with the added element that the athletes are supposed to be attaining a certain level of higher education.

The "problems" associated with college sports have been with us since the beginning. Read about the early years of UK sports. Everything that the "enlightened" folks complain about today were the complaints of yesteryear.

I say poppycock! As long as Coach Gillispie wins and wins big and doesn't bend the rules any more than Roy Williams, Coach K and Billy Donovan,as long as he doesn't get the UKAA in trouble and as long as most of the guys are getting theireducation, he earns his paycheck. He isn't paid to be the guy that UK fans look up to as a guide for their lives. That is what your parents and such are supposed to be doing in your life.

It's entertainment. He gets paid to do a job. If he does it. Fine. If he doesn't then he gets a pinkslip.

I don't agree with this nonsense about unconditional support of the coach just because he is the coach. At UK, the coach is supposed to be a killer...a WINNER! Sweet 16 doesn't buy you happiness at UK. It means you missed the mark and you should redouble your efforts.

As far as recruiting goes, if the other schools are doing it to gain an advantage and it is not against an NCAA rule, I see no problem with it. UK has hired entourage members, AAU types and family members. The only person who didn't do this kind of thing in our era was Smith. And you see what that got him--Sheray Thomas and Shagari Alleyne. Wow.

Coach G doesn't have to be perfect. He does have to realize that he is in a different environment now. Minor slip ups are magnified into catastrophic cataclysmic events in the land of Kentucky Basketball. Some of this is cause by the history of the program. Some of this is caused by the caustic relationship with the Kentucky Media. Some if it is caused by fan AND media over-reaction.

We had guys on this very forum crying that if Smith left that all of his recruits would leave. Utter nonsense and paranoia. Some of us buy into the phenomenon and mystique of the Coach at UK. He is a GOD and deserves unconditional support.

I say HELL NO! to that. UNC doesn't do that. Duke doesn't do that. KU doesn't do that. UCLA doesn't do that. And neither should UK. At these schools, you either dominate or you perish. And that is the way that it should be.

I don't care that he had a DUI or almost DUI. I don't care about his past. I care about his future. People sometimes make bad decisions. ALL OF US. When one of the Big Blue Nation becomes perfect, give me a call.

As long as Coach G wins, his kids have a decent graduation rate and he doesn't get the program in trouble, I don't give a damn if he doesn't have a life outside of basketball. It's his life.

As for other coaches of other programs, I don't really give a damn. Anything that helps us kick their butts is great. Anything else. It ain't UK and I don't care.

[blueheretic]

I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.

[kain123]

i know the membersof this forum who were teens in the 50's or 60's appreciate the breaks they got back then, but it was a simpler time. you'reentitled to feel the way you do and i respect that.i'm sorry you have taken exception to my posts, but that doesn't change my opinions. in a "disposable" and "no tolerance" society that demands diversity, you can see thehypocrisy phoenix was talking about.today, the leaders of these young people must not only be without fault, but able to withstand the scrutiny of anyone who wishes to target them. if you would like to know anything personal about my son, let me know.

[blueheretic]

It's all hypocrisy. If it is the other person, we all want the laws to be strictly enforced and no breaks because of youth or this or that. When the shoe comes down on ourselves or on one of our loved ones, we want leniency and breaks.

I don't care what anyone gets on here and types. I won't believe it until you down two or three beers and drive home and the police pulls you over or until you get a speeding ticket and don't cry a river over it.

Personally, I think the DUI laws are skewed. If they used the same logic to pass all laws, spitting in the trash can would be illegal.

[sethman0102]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup


I interpret this post not so much as a shot at Coach G, but rather as a questionof our ability to justify the actions of those we care about. Certainly there is a bit of hypocrisy involved. Most of us despised the antics of Joakim Noah, but how many of us would tout his "passion" if he were hanging championship banners for UK? Not all, but some. It's easy to look the other way when we are the beneficiaries.

Certainly the example above is much less serious than the DUI and "thuggery" of Bob Huggins. However, those issues were well documented in a very public way (the police video, graduation rates). The fact that those issues took place in close proximity to Lexington allowed them to be fueled by rivalry. There is a distinct difference between Huggins arrest and Coach G's charge, as mentioned in a previous post. Unfortunately, the court of public opinion is quick to convict and slow to forgive. I don't want to open a can of worms here, but look at OJ Simpson and Ray Lewis. Many of us, including myself, have pre-existing opinions that were not changed by the results of their respective trials.

I believe a person with the initials J.C. once said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." If our mistakes were revealed in a public manner and continually resurrected every time we tried a career change, many of us would be unemployed. I trust that Barnhart did enough research to know his hire would not bring embarassment to the University and state of KY. I think we should extend the benefit of the doubt to Coach G until proven otherwise. In the meantime, I have faith that he will restore UK to elite level, and do so within NCAA guidelines. Welcome aboard Coach. Glad to have you!

On a lighter note, I've enjoyed this topic. Just a week ago we were discussing airplane flights and people digging up farms for Billy D souvenirs. I'll take this interesting discussion any day over that!

[CATHEAD]

blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Tulsa is not a heated rival to Georgia, and while Georgia is an SEC rival of UK's, it's not the most intense rivalry in the world. Everyone'sproblem with Pitino (for those who have a problem-myself included) is due to the fact that he went to the MOST hated rival UK has. No, he didn't leave UK for UL, but it doesn't matter, he still went, period. It's a loyalty thing in my book. There aresome lines you just don't cross.

[TrueblueCATfan]

CATHEAD wrote: blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Tulsa is not a heated rival to Georgia, and while Georgia is an SEC rival of UK's, it's not the most intense rivalry in the world. Everyone'sproblem with Pitino (for those who have a problem-myself included) is due to the fact that he went to the MOST hated rival UK has. No, he didn't leave UK for UL, but it doesn't matter, he still went, period. It's a loyalty thing in my book. There aresome lines you just don't cross.
well for me ....I don't care where he coaches I do not like him..it has nothing to do with UL..:P

[Will Lavender]

blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Not even close to the same thing.

As others said, Georgia is not Tulsa's archrival. Kentucky is not Georgia's.

Pitino burned all his bridges when he went to UofL. To uncover the ridiculousness of that move, all you've got to do is read Pitino's own book, Full-Court Pressure. In that book, Pitino himself slays UofL.

Then he moves on to coach them.

That's...slimey.

Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.

[katfever]

phoenix wrote: It is interesting that as a general fandom group we have skewered and boiled Huggins for

DUI

Thug recruiting

Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.

Now we have a coach freely hired that has had some drinking issues in his past.

Now we have a coach that has gone to any length to get kids he wants including hiring pieces of their entourage(AAU coaches)

Now we have a coach that freely engaged in the double speak of wandering coaches, and this guy wasn't getting all kinds of pressure from the fan base, he was being lionized in his home state, and watching his employers put together an even bigger package of pay and incentives for him, and he didn't even give them a chance to match the offer when he left.

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I think it is better at this point to keep our mouths shut when the various articles come out pointing to our solution and perhaps fluffing the pillows of our hypocrisy. They have some points. Instead of loudly complaining about every negative article perhaps we should nod our head and say, well yes, part of that is right.

Then we probably need to hold our breaths for a couple seasons, and hope that the wild drive for success infecting our coach, and fanned to a bonfire by our fandom, does not end up burning us with either a new display of his lack of personal control, or that there is not a case of recruiting at all costs that comes back to haunt us. These may not ever even be broached in the slightest fashion by the new guy. Lets hope not, and hold out the hope as I do that this guys true drive is to reach the top of the basketball heap, and that he will recognize that to truly reach it and be respected for what he has done, he will consider his day to day actions, his entertainment and his own personal responsibility and vulnerability living under this microscope, and treat his recruiting and his recruits as highly valuable tools that when treated with respect and honor will pay big dividends into the future for him and our university.

My personal take is Go Billy, and be careful!!:thumbup
A poorly thought out and written post by someone who can not get over Smith leaving.

[Will Lavender]

FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.

Huh? Excuse me? All business decisions are out of the reach of ethics. WOW.



[EDITED.Disrespectful toFCFS82.]

Most business decisions -- I never said "all"; "all" was your word, "most" was mine -- are indeed outside the reach of ethics.

The problem is, as any ethics professor would tell you, the paradigm of what exactly a "business decision" is is shady. A person may say that they are leaving their job because they want to advance their career, that it's "all business," but they in turn might be ripping a hole in their former company's financial structure. That falls outside the realm of what I'm talking about.

Coaching though is a lot more simple than that. There is a pretty clear hierarchy, and in my opinion most -- if you quote me, get the language right -- coaches move from one step to another in an attempt to boost their own stock. Thus: business decision.

[Grub]

Late post...

[Will Lavender]

FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.

Huh? Excuse me? All business decisions are out of the reach of ethics. WOW.



Listen, I don't appreciate your attitude. In all honesty I never have, but that's neither here nor there.

You disagree with me? Fine. But cut the faux outrage.

Most business decisions -- I never said "all"; "all" was your word, "most" was mine -- are indeed outside the reach of ethics.




Okay, read your statement again. The first entity are "coaching moves" which you do use the quantifier of "most". You then put some of the coaching moves into another realm called "business decisions"which you state are "therefore out of the realm of ethics". You needed another conditional word to represent that even all business decisions are not outside the realm of ethics.

Eh... lets just leave it there.






Doesn't matter.

Even if it was a grammar error (which I will concede that it was confusing), I still don't appreciate the tone. Second time in two weeks you've pulled out the "WOW" crap with one of my posts. No need for that. Disagree and move on or just ignore it altogether.

[Wildcat Larry]

Play nice, boys.

[Will Lavender]

FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: FCFS82 wrote: Will Lavender wrote: Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.

Huh? Excuse me? All business decisions are out of the reach of ethics. WOW.



Listen, I don't appreciate your attitude. In all honesty I never have, but that's neither here nor there.

You disagree with me? Fine. But cut the faux outrage.

Most business decisions -- I never said "all"; "all" was your word, "most" was mine -- are indeed outside the reach of ethics.




Okay, read your statement again. The first entity are "coaching moves" which you do use the quantifier of "most". You then put some of the coaching moves into another realm called "business decisions"which you state are "therefore out of the realm of ethics". You needed another conditional word to represent that even all business decisions are not outside the realm of ethics.

Eh... lets just leave it there.






Doesn't matter.

Even if it was a grammar error (which I will concede that it was confusing), I still don't appreciate the tone. Second time in two weeks you've pulled out the "WOW" crap with one of my posts. No need for that. Disagree and move on or just ignore it altogether.


Dont make shocking statements and I won't react. Pure and simple. Period.



[EDITED. Disrespectful.]

[Wildcat Larry]

Give it a rest, both of you.

[Gunsmoke]

Wildcat Larry wrote: First of all, it seems to me like the poster is searching for the negatives and he would be doing the same with any coach named because of the terrible "tubby hangover" that he has displayed in post after post. However, if the post could be taken at face value, then I think FCFS82's post is very important.

There is a HUGE difference in beingcharged and being found guilty of DUI. With Huggins we all got to see himfall all over himself, obviously intoxicated, on the police video that was released. On the other hand, as FCFS82 mentioned, the police actually questioned their actions more than Gillispie's.

Officially, at least court record wise, BG has not been found guilty of a DUI. He admitted mistakes and has apparently learned from the experience. I would not want someone to hold against me stuff in my past that I've learned from and corrected, so I don't choose to hold such things against others.

The past is just that, the past.
I didn't read what everybody else said because the topic is agenda based and I have never agreed with anything the author has written. So I go with what Larry said. This thread is negative double speak at best and serves absolutely no purpose other than to sling mud through innuendos. Just my two cents worth and oh, have a good day.

[Will Lavender]

Wildcat Larry wrote: Give it a rest, both of you.
Larry's right. I overreacted to FC's post. Must have been in a bad mood. (This Sudoku book I'm trying to crack would drive a man to drink!)

Peace, FCFS82. :thumbup

[Houstoncat]

Will Lavender wrote: Very interesting post.

This part is especially interesting:

We can sit and point the finger at others for years but when we percieve we might be getting behind the curve a little, many of these troubling, freely criticized behaviours become an acceptable baggage for a coach percieved to be the possible new saviour for KY basketball.

I'm curious about what others feel about that paragraph.

Related to that, here are some important questions:

What is a basketball coach supposed to be? What's he supposed to do? What's his function?

I hope this thread gets some hits and replies, because I think phoenix makes some extremely valid points. I'll come back tomorrow sometime and address the above questions.








First and foremost a basketball coach is human, he/she make mistakes, they all have human flaws.

Those flaws somtimes get magnified by ill advised public behavior, it may not be a dui, it might be a verbal slip i.e. Knight and the rape comment, it could be very visible public intoxication such as Huggins, or physical harrassment, perWimp Sanderson, it could be personel behavior, Pokey Chapman, Eddie Sutton repeatedly had problems with alchohol.that's just a few examples.

What do we want a coach to be? Well frankly at Kentucky, perfect. Thats why even the most minor flaws or indescrestions are so magnified. We want our coach to be role models perfect in every way. A father/mother figure, confidant, glib with the press, a fierce competitor, a teacher, moral...on and on. Problem is coaches are people they all have flaws.

Our new coach made a mistake(s), he addressed them before hiring, he's apparently corrected that type of behavior but being the fans we are we blow this out of proportion and begin to discuss situational ethics. Sure we justify, that's because we want to believe that our fervent adoration can correct those flaws, that because he or she is at kentucky and that will cure their personel issues. Let the coach be human, we help him and the University helps him/her if there is an issue that can be modified with counseling etc.

These coaches are almost all type a personalities, hard driving, goal driven, they do things in a big way...its the way they are. Expect issues, expect problems, expect solutions somtimes drastic.

As far as coaches moving from place to place, expect that too. If you or I had many of these types of opportunities to "better" our or our family situations we'd do it in a minute. We villify Pitino for the Louisville job...why, he determined that it was best for him and his family. He had and still has big Kentucky ties, big U of K ties. Our beef is we cared for him so much as a coach it hurts to see him at one of our rivals every year. Let it go.

My only problem with a coach moving on or pretending to move on is that these coaches are given contract extensions that they sign and they turn right around and move on or move the threat of a move as leverage to change the terms of the contract. That's a legal issue with these universities and a personal moral issue with the coach. I belive in living up to my contracts, that's not the mode of business in colleage basketball or football and I feel like it needs to be addressed. In the pros when such moves are made, the coach is paid if fired, a team is reimbursed with draft choices and or monies if the coach goes to another team. The NCAA might consider something similar, you might see these guys stay in one place a bit longer.

Good Topic:thumbup

[blueheretic]

Will Lavender wrote: blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Not even close to the same thing.

As others said, Georgia is not Tulsa's archrival. Kentucky is not Georgia's.

Pitino burned all his bridges when he went to UofL. To uncover the ridiculousness of that move, all you've got to do is read Pitino's own book, Full-Court Pressure. In that book, Pitino himself slays UofL.

Then he moves on to coach them.

That's...slimey.

Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.





But people don't always use that "rivalry" excuse. The reason that some hate Calipari and a few others is the "mercenary" aura they have by program hopping. It's what some people have complained about Billy G. He spent two years at UTEP, 2 3 at TAMU and now he is at UK.

I hear or read this all the time. Coaches move up the perceived NCAA ladder. I don't care that Pitino is at UL. I think it makes for a better rivalry. So I kind of like it. a little.

Some people take this stuff too personally. It's his life. It's no different than going from Disney to CNN or AOL/Warner or whatever.

Personally, I think Pitino underestimated the pettiness of the UK fanbase. UL has only been a real rivalry since the mid-80s. It's not even really a historic rivalry. That would be UT. UK became a serious rival because of the Kentucky State Senate AND because the won the 1st Dream Game and went on to win two NCAA Championships while UK was on a bit of slide in the 80s.

Prior to 1984, UL was an instate afterthought for most UK fans. It's funny.

Still, Smith gets a pass on his mercenary moves and short stays at coaching positions and others get crucified. It's a double standard. Smith got so many passes and still gets a pass from many UK fans. He did what Pitino didn't even do. He deserted UK in an hour of need. And planned it about 4 months in advance while keeping it all Top Secret.

Just my opinion.

People want to talk about Billy Donovan being a heated rival now because he didn't come.

But Smith gets a pass on deserting and leaving the program with probation-like holes in the roster.

Because he is so "classy."

I don't call running away "classy." I call it skulking out.

And to make matters worse, his posse wants to make him off limits to all conversation unless it is a "Thank You" note for all of his wonderful years and effort. lol Kind of like when congress passes those gag orders. lol

[BigblueDrew]

blueheretic wrote: Will Lavender wrote: blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Not even close to the same thing.

As others said, Georgia is not Tulsa's archrival. Kentucky is not Georgia's.

Pitino burned all his bridges when he went to UofL. To uncover the ridiculousness of that move, all you've got to do is read Pitino's own book, Full-Court Pressure. In that book, Pitino himself slays UofL.

Then he moves on to coach them.

That's...slimey.

Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.





But people don't always use that "rivalry" excuse. The reason that some hate Calipari and a few others is the "mercenary" aura they have by program hopping. It's what some people have complained about Billy G. He spent two years at UTEP, 2 3 at TAMU and now he is at UK.

I hear or read this all the time. Coaches move up the perceived NCAA ladder. I don't care that Pitino is at UL. I think it makes for a better rivalry. So I kind of like it. a little.

Some people take this stuff too personally. It's his life. It's no different than going from Disney to CNN or AOL/Warner or whatever.

Personally, I think Pitino underestimated the pettiness of the UK fanbase. UL has only been a real rivalry since the mid-80s. It's not even really a historic rivalry. That would be UT. UK became a serious rival because of the Kentucky State Senate AND because the won the 1st Dream Game and went on to win two NCAA Championships while UK was on a bit of slide in the 80s.

Prior to 1984, UL was an instate afterthought for most UK fans. It's funny.

Still, Smith gets a pass on his mercenary moves and short stays at coaching positions and others get crucified. It's a double standard. Smith got so many passes and still gets a pass from many UK fans. He did what Pitino didn't even do. He deserted UK in an hour of need. And planned it about 4 months in advance while keeping it all Top Secret.

Just my opinion.

People want to talk about Billy Donovan being a heated rival now because he didn't come.

But Smith gets a pass on deserting and leaving the program with probation-like holes in the roster.

Because he is so "classy."

I don't call running away "classy." I call it skulking out.

And to make matters worse, his posse wants to make him off limits to all conversation unless it is a "Thank You" note for all of his wonderful years and effort. lol Kind of like when congress passes those gag orders. lol

You put things rather abrasively but there is MUCH TRUTH IN WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT COACH SMITH. I can't say i disagree with much of anything you said here.

[bluegrassking]

blueheretic wrote: Will Lavender wrote: blueheretic wrote: I never understood how so many complained about this:



Boiled Pitino fordesertion, not keeping his word, saying one thing while doing another.


And then gave Smith a free pass for leaving Tulsa and then UGa.

It's always been a hypocritical Big Blue Nation.



Not even close to the same thing.

As others said, Georgia is not Tulsa's archrival. Kentucky is not Georgia's.

Pitino burned all his bridges when he went to UofL. To uncover the ridiculousness of that move, all you've got to do is read Pitino's own book, Full-Court Pressure. In that book, Pitino himself slays UofL.

Then he moves on to coach them.

That's...slimey.

Most coaching moves are, OTOH, business decisions and therefore out of the reach of ethics.





But people don't always use that "rivalry" excuse. The reason that some hate Calipari and a few others is the "mercenary" aura they have by program hopping. It's what some people have complained about Billy G. He spent two years at UTEP, 2 3 at TAMU and now he is at UK.

I hear or read this all the time. Coaches move up the perceived NCAA ladder. I don't care that Pitino is at UL. I think it makes for a better rivalry. So I kind of like it. a little.

Some people take this stuff too personally. It's his life. It's no different than going from Disney to CNN or AOL/Warner or whatever.

Personally, I think Pitino underestimated the pettiness of the UK fanbase. UL has only been a real rivalry since the mid-80s. It's not even really a historic rivalry. That would be UT. UK became a serious rival because of the Kentucky State Senate AND because the won the 1st Dream Game and went on to win two NCAA Championships while UK was on a bit of slide in the 80s.

Prior to 1984, UL was an instate afterthought for most UK fans. It's funny.

Still, Smith gets a pass on his mercenary moves and short stays at coaching positions and others get crucified. It's a double standard. Smith got so many passes and still gets a pass from many UK fans. He did what Pitino didn't even do. He deserted UK in an hour of need. And planned it about 4 months in advance while keeping it all Top Secret.

Just my opinion.

People want to talk about Billy Donovan being a heated rival now because he didn't come.

But Smith gets a pass on deserting and leaving the program with probation-like holes in the roster.

Because he is so "classy."

I don't call running away "classy." I call it skulking out.

And to make matters worse, his posse wants to make him off limits to all conversation unless it is a "Thank You" note for all of his wonderful years and effort. lol Kind of like when congress passes those gag orders. lol


Spot on and I hope we dismantle and humiliate Minnesotta at the first and at every oppourtunity.

TLT signed at extension at UGA and practically took the next flight to Lexington but he is seen as honorable and others are are put into a poor light for doing the exact same things.

[Stucat]

The original post on this thread reminds me very much of the Florida fans who swarm the Catspause on Rivals and are constantly calling our fans hypocrites. So far they have never been warned or banned on Catspause. They claim that UK fans are abunch of "delusional" hypocrites who will adore Billy D. one week and Billy G. the next week. Yet say anything critical of the Florida program on their boardandthe poster is immediately banned.

Maybe I am a hypocrite but I will come down on the side of UK everytime. Yes I have tried to convince the Florida fans on their board that Billy G. was not found guilty of a DUI. Does that convince them of anything? NO! they just call me a liar and if I try a stronger statement that I am telling the truth I am warned that I am on their board and I had best be careful of what I say. It seems to me that the Florida fans are hypocritical as well by trying to "nail" the UK fans as hypocrites when they act the exact same way and God help anyone that would dare say anything negative about Billy Donovan on their board.

[UK78ALUM]

the "butt chewings" worked in most cases.

Apparently not, based on your other statement here:

when i was younger (back in the sixties), i got pulled over a few times and the police chewed me out and told me to go home.

How many is "a few times"?

i could'nt figure out why my son keep getting in trouble with the police when he was partying in HS.

Perhaps because he was breaking the law? You think? :shrug:

And speaking of your son, I have a story to tell about my child as well. Others here like Wildcat Larry and ukbob already know it, but I'll repeat for your benefit.

June 27, 1999. A clear Sunday afternoon. My daughter was stopped, waiting to turn into our neighborhood when a drunk going 55 hit her from behind without ever touching the brakes. The impact bent my Pontiac Bonneville vertically and knocked it approximately 35 feet. The trunk lid ended up on the roof, the spare tire was found 100 feet down US 60.

The force broke the driver's seat and my daughter ended up in the back seat. It also removed all the knobs and controls from the dashboard and they ended up in the rear window. My daughter escaped with minor injuries - through the left rear door and went to try and help the other driver.

Ironically, the first person on the scene was the local president of MADD, who became a great help through all this. They did a background check on the driver, and apparently she too had been stopped "a few times".

So, if you think you and your son deserve some kind of break or sympathy for your idiotic decisions, think again. No, not everyone drinks and drives, not even after one drink.

[kain123]

uuuuuhhhh what? how many on this board havedui charges on their record? i don't. how many have had dui charges removed or fixed?i understand a person must pay for thier mistakes. this means thatwe must conclude that coach gillespie should not have been hired because he might have questionable behavior patterns. he said he learned from his mistakes, but some on this board "know" he has'nt learned from his mistakes. what about a recrute with a questionable past and we say "not him, he's trouble"? some of these athelete's success stories are in the paper and we enjoy them when they are talked about in the ncaa tourney. some of you want to criticise me for my child rearing abilities. you have three choices when a young persongets in trouble. first, you candeny that there is a problem and make a few contacts and calls that might be of help. secondly, you can tell the child you're done with them and turn your back (i've seen this done). thirdly, support the child. even when you're upset at them forembarassing you(yes, you're the only one hurt at first), you let them know that you will support them, but they are reponsible for what they did and there is a debt to be paid.i chose the third. in all honesty, if i had to choose again, i would pickthe first choice. my son had some excellent opportunitiesdenied because of a mistakes of his youth that followed him on his traffic record. some of you said i was crying over the treatment of my son. the truth is, he and i both learned alot from our mistakes. he is now a succesful family man and i'm very proud of him. who knows, you might be sitting next to him at the next ballgame.

[phoenix]

Interesting bunch of replies and sometimes more entertaining that clown college could ever be. I didn't expect this much stuff coming back, but it is an interesting topic to me, and I have sorted through and isolated some of the quotes I thought were representative. I was sort of surprised how many posters bypassed the questions I posed and took upa defensive position, almost a state ofdenial at times. Thanks for the responses. The last quotesI include worry me about the state of UK athletics, but I guess they are part of the mix.

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And we skewer Thuggins because he doesn't graduate his players, plays dirty, AND he recruits thugs. None of those attributes are shared by Billy.

DUI: alright, a bad decision, but does that make him a big drinker, like Sutton was?


As for Huggins, look at his graduation rates, need we say more?

Charged with and found guilty of are two different things. Heck, the second one pretty much had the El Paso PD admitting they might have made a mistake and targeted the man because of his profile.

There is a HUGE difference in beingcharged and being found guilty of DUI. With Huggins we all got to see himfall all over himself, obviously intoxicated, on the police video that was released. On the other hand, as FCFS82 mentioned, the police actually questioned their actions more than Gillispie's.

Officially, at least court record wise, BG has not been found guilty of a DUI.

Being positive is something I have to work at. But not in this case. Sure, he has had some judgment issues with alcohol. But how many of our members have?

There's quite a difference between being charged (and not convicted) for a DUI and throwing up all over yourself and car when the cop pulls you over. Twice.

The old Confucious motto about "whose ox is in the ditch" might apply here, but personallyI don't care. The DUI thing was dropped by authorities, good enough for me, this is America after all(innocent till proven guilty

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Enough about the various aspects of NOT BEING ACTUALLY CONVICTED...

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If phoenix is thinking of a recently hired coach who really had a big NCAA cloud over his head enroute to the new job, you must be thinking of our neighbors to the north, Indiana and Kelvin Sampson.

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Interesting that the "your coach is even worse than our coach" is a common reply.

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I call it skulking out.

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Hypocrisy at its highest level, this same poster repeatedly chastised and called for the head of the previous coach, criticizing incessantly(some justified, some not)and now evidently agreeing with me about coaches walking out on their contracts, he calls it skulking out. LOL.

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It's sad that a posteris digging up junk, much like the cardinal fans link earlier, to spray our new coach. In this case it seems to be a post-Tubby-mancrush hangover.


First of all, it seems to me like the poster is searching for the negatives and he would be doing the same with any coach named because of the terrible "tubby hangover" that he has displayed in post after post.

Looked in the mirror lately??? I made a few mistakes, truth be known you have also.

I like the way everybody seems to accept Phoenix's premise that Coach Gillespie is somehow unethical and immoral and was hired despite that because we need to turn things around...As for the DUI, even if it wasn't dropped, which it was, there are plenty of nonalcoholics that have the bad luck to be arrested for DUI. It doesn't make you a bad person.

I think Phoenix is still sulking over his boy Tubby running off to Minnessota

A poorly thought out and written post by someone who can not get over Smith leaving.

With a jackass posting such as this, I really have to wonder why anyone would ever want to coach basketball at UK.

I didn't read what everybody else said because the topic is agenda based and I have never agreed with anything the author has written. So I go with what Larry said. This thread is negative double speak at best and serves absolutely no purpose other than to sling mud through innuendos. Just my two cents worth and oh, have a good day.

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Attack the poster? Why? Because you don't like the questions? I didn't smear the coach, and in fact I cheered him on and gave him a thumbs up at the end. I just asked some questions I think are justified for us as a fanbase, particularly with our history of looking at other's problems and criticizing. Many posters jumped so quick they don't even realize what their postings prove in terms of the original question. I think most of them read the thread. Posters that just want to take a shot at another poster, and don't read the thread really don't even add two cents to the conversation.

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Personally this issue should show the state of the game, not just Kentucky. Its time to start viewing this as a business. Period. If folks are holding onto the notion of a coach being a father figure while instilling all that is good about sports and competition in an athlete, then you need to check out D-III basketball where no scholarships are given. The parentshave an agenda, thekids have an agenda, the coach has an agenda, and the school has an agenda

A basketball coach is supposed to win games and maintain technicalcompliance to the rules. If they do those two things, then nothing else matters.


Yes, win games! Please no NCAA violations.Other then that..go for it big man. Do we really care aboutBG'spast? Especially considering what we haveheard about his past isjust a bunch of maybes and might haves. Suspicion and conviction are two different things.

say what you want...I need a coach who wins championships not builds moral character...leave that for the preacher. Don't break any rules and I don't care what you do to win. Even if it means hiring AAU coaches. Taking the moral high ground got us NOWHERE. Call me the arrogant UK fan that ESPN talks about and I say BULL. We should be better than the rest of the country regardless of how many great athletes there are out there.....I don't give a rat's *** what or who it takes to win. The tradition is WINNING, folks not BEING THEGOOD GUY. Iwould love it if the rest of the country hated Billy G as long as we were in it for the trophy!

I kinda like a coach that his been arrested.:thumbup :beer:Imagine the street cred with the recruits.:shrug::lol: Just win the games, and don't cheat. All the other stuff is crap for losers to worry about.

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Scary fandom here. College sports? College kids? Clearly not all of us view UK athletics the same way. Disturbing to some of you other posters, or am I the only one that gets a sick feeling here?

[Will Lavender]

kain123 wrote: uuuuuhhhh what? how many on this board havedui charges on their record? i don't. how many have had dui charges removed or fixed?i understand a person must pay for thier mistakes. this means thatwe must conclude that coach gillespie should not have been hired because he might have questionable behavior patterns. he said he learned from his mistakes, but some on this board "know" he has'nt learned from his mistakes. what about a recrute with a questionable past and we say "not him, he's trouble"? some of these athelete's success stories are in the paper and we enjoy them when they are talked about in the ncaa tourney. some of you want to criticise me for my child rearing abilities. you have three choices when a young persongets in trouble. first, you candeny that there is a problem and make a few contacts and calls that might be of help. secondly, you can tell the child you're done with them and turn your back (i've seen this done). thirdly, support the child. even when you're upset at them forembarassing you (yes, you're the only one hurt at first), you let them know that you will support them, but they are reponsible for what they did and there is a debt to be paid.i chose the third. in all honesty, if i had to choose again, i would pickthe first choice. my son had some excellent opportunitiesdenied because of a mistakes of his youth that followed him on his traffic record. some of you said i was crying over the treatment of my son. the truth is, he and i both learned alot from our mistakes. he is now a succesful family man and i'm very proud of him. who knows, you might be sitting next to him at the next ballgame.
Good post, kain.

However, this post varies WILDLY from your first post on this topic. Your first post clearly suggested that the police are too harsh on kids and should cut them breaks when they get behind the wheel after drinking.

This post, on the other hand, speaks to things that I'm sure all of us here agree with.