Bonds the Roid man, does he deserve to be recognized?

[boomdaddy]

He is set to take over Hammerin Hank Aaron's all time home run record. Hank wasn't juiced. Should Bonds get to own the record? Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa are all roid boys.

[MSU Cat]

Let's put it this way. When Bonds breaks the record, do you know who will not be in attendance? Hammerin' Hank. That says a lot.

[Blue Heaven]

I think he should be recognized. I thought you're innocent until proven guilty. Let's face it, MLB is ran by a bunch of wimps. This thing could have been put to bed years ago, but they used it to bring back the fans.

[UKS2H]

I don't care if they recognize him or not. The vast majority of all of us who live in the real world knows how he got here today. The day he takes over the record is the day I become A-Rod's biggest fan. A-Rod has the integrity and class to be an important figure in baseball, and I can only think that barring GIS (Griffey Injury Syndrome) that he will surpass Bonds in a mere 6 or 7 more years. I can take having Bonds the Astrict man hold the record for that long. He won't go into the Hall of Fame, they made that clear with the blackballing of Mark McGwire this year. They won't let the juicy juice kids in.

[surveyor]

I think he should be recognized. I thought you're innocent until proven guilty. Let's face it, MLB is ran by a bunch of wimps. This thing could have been put to bed years ago, but they used it to bring back the fans.

I agree.

As much as I may believe Bonds used growth enhancing substances, he's not been charged with such, nor admitted to such, it's all speculation.

[Terry L. Wildcat]

Growing up near Cincinnati I got to see Mr. Aaron play many times as a Milwaukee Brave and what a priviledge it was...the only thing I know about Barry Bonds is I don't want him to break the record...as noted above, he has not been convicted of anything...my axe to grind with baseball is that Pete Rose should be allowed in the Hall as a player but never allowed back into the game because he bet on it as a manager.

[WildcatRick]

He should be recognized the same way McGwire, Sosa and Palmeiro have been... as a roid boy. Like Scott said, after he hits it I become an A-Rod fan.

[BigBlue75]

To the extent that history will be made when he breaks the record, I believe that he should be recognized as the man who established the new record..but nothing more. I don't believe he should be held up as a standard for young athletes to emulate nor do I believe he should become the "face" of major league baseball.

What little respect I had for the man went right out the window a few years ago when the Giants were in the World Series and as pre-game introductions were given, all the Giant players came running out of the dugout and shook hands with their teammates and more than a few acknowledged the crowd. What did Bonds do when his name was called? With a bored look on his face, his walked straight out to his place in the line and never acknowledged his teammates or the crowd. Now, that may not mean squat to a lot of people but it spoke volumes to me.

[surveyor]

To the extent that history will be made when he breaks the record, I believe that he should be recognized as the man who established the new record..but nothing more. I don't believe he should be held up as a standard for young athletes to emulate nor do I believe he should become the "face" of major league baseball.

What little respect I had for the man went right out the window a few years ago when the Giants were in the World Series and as pre-game introductions were given, all the Giant players came running out of the dugout and shook hands with their teammates and more than a few acknowledged the crowd. What did Bonds do when his name was called? With a bored look on his face, his walked straight out to his place in the line and never acknowledged his teammates or the crowd. Now, that may not mean squat to a lot of people but it spoke volumes to me.

Well, yeah, I suppose.

But the original question was should he get to own the HR record?

Ty Cobb was generally acknowledged as the biggest *** hole in baseball by his peers and practically everyone who ever came in contact with him.

I'm not prepared to set personality standards for those eligible for the Hall and for whether or not they get recognized for breaking records. :)

[BigBlue75]

Well, yeah, I suppose.

But the original question was should he get to own the HR record?

Ty Cobb was generally acknowledged as the biggest *** hole in baseball by his peers and practically everyone who ever came in contact with him.

I'm not prepared to set personality standards for those eligible for the Hall and for whether or not they get recognized for breaking records. :)

Just to clarify:
I don't begrudge him the HR record and he probably will and should be a first ballot Hall of Famer. When he does break the record, I also believe the game should be stopped and the moment should be duly recorded for historical purposes. Whatever else MLB decides to do to recognize Bonds is fine with me, I don't have an issue with that. I'm just saying that I don't think he should be held up as an example for future athletes to "do it this way",regardless of whether the steroids deal is ever proven or not.
Of course, I also feel like Pete Rose should be in the Hall as well, but he sure as heck isn't going to win any awards for winning friends and influencing people, either. :icon_biggrin:;)

[Brian McCat]

Who?

[The Old School JPS]

After always spending chunks of my summers going to various major league parks, memorizing stats and collecting tons of cards as a kid, I walked away completely from major league baseball after the greed of the 1993 strike, and I have not missed it at all. However they decide to handle the Bonds situation, I won't be paying attention. They lost me. Being vaguely aware that juicers are grabbing records hasn't moved me in the direction of coming back, that's for sure.

[Josh]

I agree.

As much as I may believe Bonds used growth enhancing substances, he's not been charged with such, nor admitted to such, it's all speculation.

That's pretty much how I feel about the situation as well.

[Los Gatos]

I agree.

As much as I may believe Bonds used growth enhancing substances, he's not been charged with such, nor admitted to such, it's all speculation.

Bonds has admitted to using substances, however, he claims he didn't know they were steroids.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

[surveyor]

Bonds has admitted to using substances, however, he claims he didn't know they were steroids.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/03/BALCO.TMP

What Bonds admitted to using wasn't a growth enhancement substance, however. His admittance (whether one believes it or not is another story) is regarding an arthritis balm and oil for external use.

[HOMEYCAT]

What bothers me about this whole deal....

I saw Aaron play many times. I saw Bonds play many times. Both were terrific ballplayers. Whenever either one of them stepped to the plate, there was a hum....a menacing hum as if any second the game would change.

Whether Bonds is a big cheater who deserves all the bad press.... I don't think so. I agree that the whole league is tainted after the strike 14 years ago. Furthermore, with reports of the rampant use of steroids, it will never be the same.

I would like to testify that Barry Bonds was and is an amazing player. 8 Gold Gloves. .298 lifetime. An absolutely whopping .444 on base percentage.

All this is betrayed by a fussy, self-serving and often supercilious press.

[teamchemistry09]

While it is all still speculation, its hard to believe or convince someone that he isnt on steroids or some type of performance enhancing drug. The man is 40, and his feet, jersey, and hat sizes all got bigger. Do you have another growth spurt when you turn 40? Not that Im aware of. The man is in it for the record and thats it. He doesnt care about anything else. He doesnt care if his team wins. If he did he would play everygame and try to help them instead of resting his legs. I hope Bonds does not get recognized if he breaks the record and I hope it is stripped from him after he does break it. I hope they get proof that he is abusing the drug policy and that they take his records away from him. I think the perfect thing to do would have every pitcher that faces him intentionally walk him so he couldnt break the record. He knows he is on steriods, America knows, and the MLB knows, I am astonished that the league isnt doing more to prove it before he breaks the record.

[surveyor]

I musta missed the news reports detailing Bonds' hat sizes, shoe sizes, etc. throughout his career. Must be info provided on the back of Topps baseball cards. :confused:

[teamchemistry09]

I musta missed the news reports detailing Bonds' hat sizes, shoe sizes, etc. throughout his career. Must be info provided on the back of Topps baseball cards. :confused:

They actually had a thing on sportscenter about it. They showed the info from the Giants franchise about how his jersey, hat, and cleet size all increased. I highly doubt that the Giants organization would get there info off of the back of baseball cards.

[surveyor]

They actually had a thing on sportscenter about it. They showed the info from the Giants franchise about how his jersey, hat, and cleet size all increased. I highly doubt that the Giants organization would get there info off of the back of baseball cards.

Of course, I was being facetious.

However, I've heard discussions on talk radio and on teevee, in which a number of doctors dismissed that any growth hormones would account for shoe size and hat size changes. All the ones I've heard stated hgh, steroids, etc. doesn't make bones longer, and the only way bones get thicker (and even then the difference is not easily measurable) is due to weight training and the stresses on the affected skeletal system. When a muscle is stressed and exercised, the attached bone will eventually get stronger in order to meet the increased load over time. But that occurs with or without steroids.
That's why women in particular are encouraged to incorporate some sort of weight training early on to aid in strengthening their bones.

Ultimately, all this stuff is circumstantial, and until there's some evidence to prove Bonds is guilty of abusing illegal substances or growth hormones, I'll not convict him - as much as I don't like him.

[teamchemistry09]

While what you said sounded nice and educated and made book sense, lets look at common sense. When you are 40 years old, are you going to go through enough weight lifting and training in order for your bones to get thicker or longer? What about right after having knee surgery and still not 100% healed? While it might be possible it is very unlikely that Bonds went through enough physical training to get his bones to grow without a performance enhancing drug. That is IMO though

[surveyor]

While what you said sounded nice and educated and made book sense, lets look at common sense. When you are 40 years old, are you going to go through enough weight lifting and training in order for your bones to get thicker or longer? What about right after having knee surgery and still not 100% healed? While it might be possible it is very unlikely that Bonds went through enough physical training to get his bones to grow without a performance enhancing drug. That is IMO though

Bones do not physically get longer through weight training - drug enhanced or not. There's no evidence to support otherwise. If you've got evidence I'd love to see it. I'll be waiting for the link. :icon_lol:
I know people who've gone up in shoe size predominantly because the arch in their foot has relaxed over the years - that creates a longer "footprint".
The "proof" provided by arm-chair athlete pundits thus far have been extremely circumstantial - and all over the place. Some claim that steroids all one to recover quickly from injuries others claim it allows a delayed recovery - all claiming they are proof Bonds is on steroids.
Use of growth hormones or steroids still require an amount of weight training for them to be of benefit.

[teamchemistry09]

Well I guess we agree to disagree. You choose to believe yourself, I will listen to what the Giants say and what I believe. I cannot stand Bonds and I hope they catch him. Someone from Balco announced a few days ago he personally gave steroids to Bonds and Gary Sheffield and I hope they prove it before he breaks the record. If it was up to me Bonds would not go in the HOF because he cheats. Before the steroid scandal he was a for sure vote but after he gets nothing from me. How can he go from being fit and in shape in his late 20s to being huge and the biggest man on the field in his late 30s without help? So you dont believe me on the shoe size, what about the hat size? Why on earth would someones head get bigger when they are 40? What about the jersey size? According to the Giants, he had the same jersey size for I believe it was 6 years before this season in which he had an increase in size. I know he works out, but he takes games off to rest. Do you really think someone who cant get through a day game after a night game will work out enough in 6 months to grow a few inches around his chest? It might just be me but I think working out that hardcore is a little more physical and exhausting on you that playing 2 baseball games in 30 hours

[surveyor]

Well I guess we agree to disagree. You choose to believe yourself, I will listen to what the Giants say and what I believe.

Actually, I choose to believe what the medical community says about what constitutes as outward evidence of steroid use. Longer feet and one of `em.

I cannot stand Bonds and I hope they catch him.

I don't like him, either. But I don't let that taint my objectivity.............

Someone from Balco announced a few days ago he personally gave steroids to Bonds and Gary Sheffield and I hope they prove it before he breaks the record.

Whoa. I read that the transcripts of that interview and Patrick Arnold did NOT say he personally gave steroids to Bonds and Sheffield. He's a chemist with BALCO who says he believes they were taking steroids. He's admitted as much that he doesn't know either men and has never met Bonds.
BIG difference - unless one HOPES Bonds is guilty, lol.

If it was up to me Bonds would not go in the HOF because he cheats.
Fortunately in the USA there's the justice system where judges and juries make determination of guilt, rather than kangaroo courts.
Rose is not in the HOF, nor allowed back in the good graces of the MLB because he admitted to betting on baseball. Until some sort of similar admission by Bonds or a court finds him guilty as such, he's considered innocent - or at least should be.
FWIW, Selig has broken silence and is in attendance for the next several games, or as many as required, for Bonds to break the record.

So you dont believe me on the shoe size, what about the hat size?
My hat size is a bit bigger than it was when I played ball at 18 and 19 - and I'm currently 43 and have a shaved head versus head full of hair 25 years ago. Can't explain it. It just is.

What about the jersey size? According to the Giants, he had the same jersey size for I believe it was 6 years before this season in which he had an increase in size.
I've seen pictures of Bonds when he first played at SF and several others throughout the seasons. It appears to me he gradually got bigger from the mid 90's to now. It's not a jump over a few seasons. I'm not saying (nor never have said) that Bonds definitely isn't taking substances. My opinion has been to give him the benefit of the doubt until he confesses to such or is found guilty of such.
Certainly guys can get bigger without steroids or hgh following a disciplined routine and healthy diet - even at 40. Genetics play a huge part in what many are capable of.

[HOMEYCAT]

Let's put it this way. When Bonds breaks the record, do you know who will not be in attendance? Hammerin' Hank. That says a lot.

Hank has always been a bit of a curmudgeon. He had to put up with a lot in his career. The Say Hey Willie Mays will be there and, regardless of his godfather status, that says a lot too.

You know who I think would be there with bells on if he could be? Babe Ruth.
The Babe would be there buying hot dogs for kids and signing autographs and takin' pictures. :icon_biggrin::thumbup:

[Josh]

It's been fun to watch Atlanta hold off Barry at the plate this week. They are my team, so while I don't mind him hitting one before the series is over tomorrow night, I don't want it to change the outcome of the Braves winning, and I don't want him tying or breaking. He's just simply not getting many opportunities. I give credit to guy like John Smoltz who treats a pitch to Bonds like it's a pitch in the World Series.

Also, we've beaten them both days. 4-0 on Sunday and even though I turned the TV off after we were up 4-0 last night only to turn it back on to see that the game went into extra innings, we at least won the game.

[teamchemistry09]

I am just sick of Bonds and cant wait until this all unfolds and he is proven guilty. It is sad when on ESPNs bottom line after it shows the Giants score it says "Chasing Aaron: Bonds DNP (rest)" lol. If the guy didnt play then dont mention him. Maybe its just me but I cant stand the guy and hope he is proven guilty very soon

[TransientAlum]

x2

Cannot wait for someone to eventually blow steroids in pro sports wide open. All this talk about nothing being proven is just BS. Just like in the local gyms, nothing is talked about, people back one another up, etc, etc...

It is so d$#! well known but no one will just stand up and deal with it as it needs to be dealt with.

Steriods, pain killers, drugs even dont deserve suspensions, they deserve lifetime bans.

[surveyor]

x2

Cannot wait for someone to eventually blow steroids in pro sports wide open. All this talk about nothing being proven is just BS. Just like in the local gyms, nothing is talked about, people back one another up, etc, etc...

It is so d$#! well known but no one will just stand up and deal with it as it needs to be dealt with.

Steriods, pain killers, drugs even dont deserve suspensions, they deserve lifetime bans.

Here, here!

The court system takes too long anyway. These guys should be dealt with in the court of public opinion, whether they actually did it or not. We know better than any judge or joory anyways! Yeehaw!

Unless the MLB has some good hard evidence, they're going to have an uphill battle with Bonds and potentially a legal one if they pursue banning him without having sufficient goods to do so.
The HOF will be a different story. If the status quo remains (no indictments, civil charges, criminal charges) the voters will still likely not vote him in until the second or third time - if even then.

[TrueblueCATfan]

we are huge Braves fans in my house and we have watched every night this week..I love the fact they he has not hit a HR..heck last night he did not even play hopefully he won't tonight either

GO BRAVES

[surveyor]

Per the MLB site, Bonds is scheduled to play tonight.

[TransientAlum]

Here, here!

The court system takes too long anyway. These guys should be dealt with in the court of public opinion, whether they actually did it or not. We know better than any judge or joory anyways! Yeehaw!

Unless the MLB has some good hard evidence, they're going to have an uphill battle with Bonds and potentially a legal one if they pursue banning him without having sufficient goods to do so.
The HOF will be a different story. If the status quo remains (no indictments, civil charges, criminal charges) the voters will still likely not vote him in until the second or third time - if even then.

Understand the point but when did using it in baseball become a legal issue. Any standard can be established including even being linked to a place like Balco. Or being named Barry Bonds. Or using the moniker Surveyor even.

If he drowns, he is innocent, if he floats, its because of all that steriod and HGH in his system.

[Josh]

we are huge Braves fans in my house and we have watched every night this week..I love the fact they he has not hit a HR..heck last night he did not even play hopefully he won't tonight either

GO BRAVES

Only thing he really did was double. :)

[Josh]

Don't look now. Bonds hit 754 against the Marlins tonight, with innings still remaining in the game. ESPN is convering the game (naturally).

[surveyor]

Any standard can be established including even being linked to a place like Balco. Or being named Barry Bonds. Or using the moniker Surveyor even.

:confused:

[HOMEYCAT]

I don't think I have seen this particular item mentioned.

Presumably, neither Aaron nor Ruth ever batted against a pitcher who was on steroids......

If steroids give a player an unfair advantage, then the non-use of them would, by comparison, lend advantage to Aaron or Ruth, etc.

[TransientAlum]

Valid point, to an extent but imagine someone, juiced, who hits a fastball off someone else that is juiced.

[HOMEYCAT]

Valid point, to an extent but imagine someone, juiced, who hits a fastball off someone else that is juiced.

Well, that's what I am saying. :shrug1: Is it harder to hit? Does the fastball go faster? And, if you connect does the ball go farther? (My son brought up the point that 'roids might not be all that conducive to good pitching, another point entirely)

Here are two other things that no one seems to bring up, maybe I missed it.

The short porch in Yankee stadium down the right field line(Ruth) And, the fence in Atlanta in left field was notoriously easy to clear in the 70's.

My main point is that the record might not be all that tainted, given all the criteria.

[Brian McCat]

After always spending chunks of my summers going to various major league parks, memorizing stats and collecting tons of cards as a kid, I walked away completely from major league baseball after the greed of the 1993 strike, and I have not missed it at all.

Ditto, except for seeing one Cardinals game in 2003, I have totally checked out on baseball.

[TransientAlum]

Na, its tainted.

Arnold once said that basically that exact thing. Steriods are running rampant througout bodybuilders. No doubt. Arnold also said that since everyone is doing them, it wouldnt change who won if everyone stopped. Thats wrong. Different types have different effects and different people react differently and tolerate different amounts. It becomes who has the better chemistry set and higher tolerances.

Anadrol, HGH do more than any other I have ever *cough* seen.

[TransientAlum]

Ditto, except for seeing one Cardinals game in 2003, I have totally checked out on baseball.

Answer this question as well.

In the 70's we had 250 lb linemen (and smaller) in the NFL. Now, if a lineman isnt over 300 lb he is tiny. They havent grown taller, just a lot bigger and much more muscular. Has conditioning improved that much?

Shawn Merriman tests positive and is suspended for a few games. What he did though changed him forever and unnaturally made him physically superior than (say) Dick Butkus. Should he ever be considered actually superior since it is known how he got there?

[teamchemistry09]

I don't think I have seen this particular item mentioned.

Presumably, neither Aaron nor Ruth ever batted against a pitcher who was on steroids......

If steroids give a player an unfair advantage, then the non-use of them would, by comparison, lend advantage to Aaron or Ruth, etc.

Pitchers dont need to be on steriods. Throwing the ball 90 mph while making it curve from top left to lower right and hitting the catcher in his hand from that distance takes much more skill than keeping your eye on the ball. Pitching is an art and requires too much skill to have steriods help. Being strong will help you make more tackles and hit the ball farther, but it wont help your pitch curve more. Thats why pitchers, kickers, and even basketball players arent on them like the MLB and NFL guys are. Pitching and kicking is a skill. How funny would it be to have a kicker weighing 250 kicking a 75 yarder lol. You dont need upper body strength like a power hitter like, say, bonds does.

[surveyor]

Thats why pitchers, kickers, and even basketball players arent on them like the MLB and NFL guys are. Pitching and kicking is a skill.

Nearly half of the major league and minor league players suspended for steroid use have been pitchers. Seems those guys didn't get the message that they don't "need" roids.
Hand-eye coordination / hitting is as much, if not moreso, a skill than pitching. If pitchers can just gain 3 or 4 mph on a fastball, it's perceived worth it in their mind, especially if that difference helps them break the 90 mph threshold.
There have been numerous articles over the past few years in which it was argued that the boost from steroids with regard to hitting and pitching was over stated. The author of one, IIRC, opined that the advantage was likely an average distance of maybe 10 feet further.
I doubt if we'd ever be able to prove to what degree steroids are of benefit with regard to hitting or throwing a ball. Too many individual variables to adjust for, IMO.
Football is another story for sure. It's fairly easy to quantify faster running speeds and gains in speed that directly correlate to advantages on the field.

[TransientAlum]

No offense intended but anyone who plays sports can benefit from strength conditioning and therefore supplements including steriods and HGH.

Heck, listen to the man lovers of Tiger Woods when he is on TV, they are always bragging about his strength.

[surveyor]

Sure, but I was responding to the comment that pitchers aren't on steroids like the rest of the MLB and NFL guys. Based on the statistics thus far regarding those suspended, nearly as many pitchers as all the other position players combined are trying steroids.

[TransientAlum]

Sure, but I was responding to the comment that pitchers aren't on steroids like the rest of the MLB and NFL guys. Based on the statistics thus far regarding those suspended, nearly as many pitchers as all the other position players combined are trying steroids.

Wasn't really addressed to your post. Sorry for the confusion.

[surveyor]

Wasn't really addressed to your post. Sorry for the confusion.

Got it. :thumbup:

At the time of responding, I had confused you with teamchemistry............

[scathendo]

what is rarely discussed in this conversation about Bonds and steroids is what players from prior eras were using. Babe Ruth injected (along with consuming everthing imaginable) goat semen with the belief that it would help him hit the long ball. you can put an asterisk by bonds name but then you'll need to asterisk all the other names with things like ...'cocaine still legal and we have no way of knowing if (insert record holder here) was lit up at the time.

even outside of the drug issue you can argue that the ball has changed, the american diet has changed, the bats have changed, the fields have changed (remember that bonds is chasing this record with his home field being a very unfriendly home run park).

what all of this is trying to say is that Bonds is innocent until proven guilty and that his pursuit of the record is as genuine as anyone else's. IMO of course.

[surveyor]

what is rarely discussed in this conversation about Bonds and steroids is what players from prior eras were using. Babe Ruth injected (along with consuming everthing imaginable) goat semen with the belief that it would help him hit the long ball.

ROFLMAO

I can see it now. The hall has an asterisk next to Ruth's name - "Used the performance enhancing agent "Goat Semen".

That is truly a new one. You don't have a source for that, do you?

For the time being I'm completely skeptical of that one. I'll more readily believe Spike Lee's assertion that Ruth was an african american before I believe this.


even outside of the drug issue you can argue that the ball has changed, the american diet has changed, the bats have changed, the fields have changed (remember that bonds is chasing this record with his home field being a very unfriendly home run park).

what all of this is trying to say is that Bonds is innocent until proven guilty and that his pursuit of the record is as genuine as anyone else's. IMO of course.

On that I can agree. I think the ball changed after the strike in `93 (or `94?) in order to get the fans back to the park.

[scathendo]

i was driving between lexington and nashville a few weeks ago and one of the Was brothers from the 'was not was' band, who is apparently a baseball fan, did a piece on NPR about Bonds and the homerun record and how drugs have always been a part of society....etc. it was the only time i've heard anyone bring up that the old timers were into some stuff as well.

i did a quick search on the NPR site but was not able to locate the story i heard.

[TransientAlum]

Should steriods be considered on that level?

I heard on the radio this morning LA had a steriod awareness day yesterday for the Giants game. Even heard someone trying to make a case as to why steriods are bad.

Anyone know the dangers of steriods? Real dangers meaning end of life or permanent debilitating dangers?

There really aren't any- at least well known. There is the occasional person who cannot handle them and there are the occasional symptoms like areola enlargement and acne on the back but there arent any really bad health risks if they are used in moderation.

Moderation means only 1 Anadrol a day and no more than 1 cc of Testosterone or Deca or Winstrol or whatever else a day. Take it periodically, dont live on it and all that.

I personally believe anyone who has used should be banned from the record books since it forever changes your body but perhaps that is just naive as well.

[surveyor]

since it forever changes your body

So long as it's still in your system...........:icon_lol:


http://linnseek.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mirror/Arnold%20Schwarzenegger.jpg

[TransientAlum]

Wow his arms have really changed huh, but still, not bad for a 60 year old.

[TransientAlum]

Heard on the news this morning, Pro sports still do not test for HGH...

That stuff costs a fortune, heck it was something like over $1K per shot in the early 90's. But, apparently, it is still hard to catch and not tested for.

[surveyor]

Heard on the news this morning, Pro sports still do not test for HGH...

That stuff costs a fortune, heck it was something like over $1K per shot in the early 90's. But, apparently, it is still hard to catch and not tested for.

HGH is drastically cheaper now. It's proved promising therapy for football players, boxers, etc. who've endured frequent concussions. I recall a discussion over how to police it's use among active players. It was noted that normal hormone levels could still be monitored and abusers weeded out.
The level of hgh required in therapeutic doses is lower than the levels required to substantially increase mass.

[The Old School JPS]

Answer this question as well.

In the 70's we had 250 lb linemen (and smaller) in the NFL. Now, if a lineman isnt over 300 lb he is tiny. They havent grown taller, just a lot bigger and much more muscular. Has conditioning improved that much?

Shawn Merriman tests positive and is suspended for a few games. What he did though changed him forever and unnaturally made him physically superior than (say) Dick Butkus. Should he ever be considered actually superior since it is known how he got there?

I'm not Brian, but since you quoted his post agreeing with mine I'll answer.

He and I both walked away from baseball thanks to the strike. The steroids haven't induced us to come back but that's not what drove us away in the first place.

[TransientAlum]

HGH is drastically cheaper now. It's proved promising therapy for football players, boxers, etc. who've endured frequent concussions. I recall a discussion over how to police it's use among active players. It was noted that normal hormone levels could still be monitored and abusers weeded out.
The level of hgh required in therapeutic doses is lower than the levels required to substantially increase mass.

Yeah, well, based on the anabolic dosages that are more like 1 to 2 cc's a day as opposed to the normal 1/8 of a cc every few days or whatever...

Yes, should be able to catch it. Should also be able to test for whether it is human hormone or monkey hormone, you would think.

Ummm how much cheaper??? ;):icon_mrgreen:

[surveyor]

Ummm how much cheaper??? ;):icon_mrgreen:

ROFL

I only know it's much cheaper than it was a decade ago, based on a discussion involving a few neighbor friends (about 60 years old) who discussed with their doctors HGH therapy.

Seems I recall something in the range of 50 - 70 dollars per miligram being mentioned. I don't know how many miligrams would be required.

Perhaps to get it in the doses required to build large amounts of mass it's still high, I'm not sure.

I know there's scams out there purporting to produce results with a simple spray application on the tongue for 50 - 60 dollars a month.

[TransientAlum]

ROFL

I only know it's much cheaper than it was a decade ago, based on a discussion involving a few neighbor friends (about 60 years old) who discussed with their doctors HGH therapy.

Seems I recall something in the range of 50 - 70 dollars per miligram being mentioned. I don't know how many miligrams would be required.

Perhaps to get it in the doses required to build large amounts of mass it's still high, I'm not sure.

I know there's scams out there purporting to produce results with a simple spray application on the tongue for 50 - 60 dollars a month.

Oh heck, you would need 1K milligrams (1 gram) per day though, at least.

Of course, if you can get a prescription and fill it, you will save a fortune. Not that I know anything about any of that or anything.