Not every scholarship player will see significant minutes

[DCWildcat]

I've been seeing a lot of chatter about whether players will transfer, who they will be, and why they should go. That doesn't bother me. What does, though, are the people who are rooting for players to transfer: those who "can't wait to see" someone gone (from a different board's post); who'll be "glad to see" certain players gone (ksr comments); and those who even want scholarships revoked for the "tubby recruits" Stevenson, Williams, and Porter (several sites).

I don't know where folks got this idea that every scholarship player will either contribute a ton of transfer. This isn't football, where quarterbacks often come in, lose the starting job to a rival, and immediately transfer. EVERY school in the country has a few guys at the end of the bench with scholarships, who never contribute much, and who graduate on time. That isn't because they're failures--maybe disappointments for some, but not failures--nor is it indicative of a terrible coach. It's just the nature of a game with highly competitive individuals fighting over scarce minutes.

So try to lose the notion that certain players "must" transfer because they won't see much time. That's not the way basketball has ever worked, and not the way it works now. I have no idea where this notion came from, but it's incorrect at the least, and disgusting when it involves rooting for members of your own team to leave because you want some better player, or because you hate the previous coach.

[Will Lavender]

This is maybe a little bit off-topic, but I've noticed a pretty drastic change in message boards in the last five years or so.

The MySpace/Facebook craze has drawn a lot of teenagers and college students to these boards. These kids often have different ideas about what message boards should be like; they have this notion that the boards are these free-for-all battle royales where the most aggressive poster "wins." Most of the big free boards are mired in this kind of posting.

So what you get is a wealth of poor discussion where posters try to out-insult the next guy. And in their cowardly anonymity, they also have no compunction about insulting our players. After all, there are no checks and balances in the cyber world.

This is why I like WCN so much. You just don't see that kind of thing here.

[Will Lavender]

More to the point:

I just can't tolerate player bashing. You can get on a kid for not playing well, for not hustling, for being selfish, for having an off-game or whatever. But if you're blasting the players in a malevolent manner in the way that DC talks about, you don't need to be on a public message board. The coaches are fair game to a certain extent, but not the players.

I think most on WCN would agree with that.

[DCWildcat]

Regarding your 1st post, Will, there's a thread on a different board right now entitled, "if we could stop recruiting any player I would pick..."

:thumbdn:

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

Regarding your 1st post, Will, there's a thread on a different board right now entitled, "if we could stop recruiting any player I would pick..."

:thumbdn:

I agree with both of you somewhat but if I may play an advocate of the devil aren't there at least two threads on the recruiting board patronizing willie warren, and Will, come on now, that sort of thing doesn't happen here?????
didn't you go AWOL for a reason ? I do see what you mean though, and of course agree that WCN is much more civil than the rest, but let's not put ourselves on too high a pedestal. I'd think Sheray Thomas might have something to say about that.

[Will Lavender]

I agree with both of you somewhat but if I may play an advocate of the devil aren't there at least two threads on the recruiting board patronizing willie warren, and Will, come on now, that sort of thing doesn't happen here?????
didn't you go AWOL for a reason ? I do see what you mean though, and of course agree that WCN is much more civil than the rest, but let's not put ourselves on too high a pedestal. I'd think Sheray Thomas might have something to say about that.

My beef wasn't with anybody here. It was about a portion of UK fans who booed Sheray in Rupp. Had nothing to do with anything that was ever put up on this board.

I don't think there are many Sheray-booers who come to WCN. In fact I don't think there's one common poster who would fall into that disgraceful camp.

[Terry L. Wildcat]

More to the point:

I just can't tolerate player bashing. You can get on a kid for not playing well, for not hustling, for being selfish, for having an off-game or whatever. But if you're blasting the players in a malevolent manner in the way that DC talks about, you don't need to be on a public message board. The coaches are fair game to a certain extent, but not the players.

I think most on WCN would agree with that.

:thumbup: I sure do.

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

My beef wasn't with anybody here. It was about a portion of UK fans who booed Sheray in Rupp. Had nothing to do with anything that was ever put up on this board.

I don't think there are many Sheray-booers who come to WCN. In fact I don't think there's one common poster who would fall into that disgraceful camp.

without digging up the thread, I know for a fact that there was at least one regular poster who maintained that the booing was ok.
I could also go back to the lsu game of 05-06 and find a few posts calling out Sheray, and if I had to I'm sure I could find several threads where there were some not-so-kind words regarding Bobby Perry, Woo, Crawford, and the list goes on.

But I'd also like to add that as much as I love this place, I've always had an issue with the way WCN tries to pick and choose who can and who cannot be called out. It's ok to bash a coach but not a player ? I don't see why. It's ok to bash a coach but not a WCN member ? I don't see why. Does it have to do with money? If you get paid, you can be a target ? is that it ? I always thought, and even asked once but received no answer, what would happen had Tubby Smith joined WCN ? would all "Tubby-bashing" have been called off then ?

again, don't get me wrong...just trying to see both sides here. In the end I will continue to feel that this is one of the best forums on the net.

[DCWildcat]

without digging up the thread, I know for a fact that there was at least one regular poster who maintained that the booing was ok.
I could also go back to the lsu game of 05-06 and find a few posts calling out Sheray, and if I had to I'm sure I could find several threads where there were some not-so-kind words regarding Bobby Perry, Woo, Crawford, and the list goes on.



It's really a question of degree. To the extent that posters join a board, view threads as a battle with two distinct sides, and think that the volume of their posts or the venom in their insults determines the "winner" of the "battle," WCN is in a whole different league compared to other boards. I think it's ok to have us on a pedestal there, because, frankly, we don't have that mindset to the same degree as anyone else out there, and any impartial observer can pick that out reading just 3 or 4 posts from each site. That isn't to say we don't have individual posts or posters who have that mindset (and I remember the post and posters you're talking about), but per capita, it's almost incomparable how much better it is here than other sites.

[DCWildcat]

But I'd also like to add that as much as I love this place, I've always had an issue with the way WCN tries to pick and choose who can and who cannot be called out. It's ok to bash a coach but not a player ? I don't see why. It's ok to bash a coach but not a WCN member ? I don't see why. Does it have to do with money? If you get paid, you can be a target ? is that it ? I always thought, and even asked once but received no answer, what would happen had Tubby Smith joined WCN ? would all "Tubby-bashing" have been called off then ?

again, don't get me wrong...just trying to see both sides here. In the end I will continue to feel that this is one of the best forums on the net.

I'm glad you're bringing up these points.

There are and should be distinctions drawn between criticism of player, coach, and fan.

First, there should be more leeway for the coach than for the players, for several reasons. For one, the coach is a paid professional, while the players are amateurs. He has a career, for which he's paid a good bit, and is subject to performance review. Of course that's Mr. Barnhart's job to do officially, but there's nothing to prevent us from doing it. Additionally, the coach has much more control of the program; heck, he's the one who tells the players everything they're supposed to do.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's important to remember the age and status of the people here. The coach is older, more mature, and has been dealing with this stuff his whole life. The players, though, are still kids; most of them can't even drink legally, have less than half the years of world experience and maturity, and have little or no experience with criticism. Of course they should be subject to less criticism.

Contrasting fellow board members versus players and coaches, I think the rules here reflect less of a "right thing to do" approach (like the player vs. coach distinction), and more of guidelines necessary for this site to function properly and reach its intended goals.

This is a UK basketball forum. While we all enjoy discussing stuff with each other, it's UK basketball than we're fans of, we're not fans of each other, and it's UK basketball we should be discussing, not each other. Obviously, spending all of our time discussing each other, rather than UK basketball, is counterproductive to the forum. Furthermore, not only does it waste space, it can be threatening. Personal insults undermine good good discussion and create divisions between posters that further undermine good discussion. It also just makes for an unwelcome, nasty environment to be in, which nobody wants.

Again, these get violated frequently even on this site, but it's far better here than anywhere else. I don't think anyone here would claim perfection. I see posts every day that I disagree with because they bash players or recruits, but I'm not a mod so it's not my job to handle. But they do a good job of keeping things under control, using similar guidelines to what I have above.

[Will Lavender]

But I'd also like to add that as much as I love this place, I've always had an issue with the way WCN tries to pick and choose who can and who cannot be called out. It's ok to bash a coach but not a player ? I don't see why. It's ok to bash a coach but not a WCN member ? I don't see why. Does it have to do with money? If you get paid, you can be a target ? is that it ? I always thought, and even asked once but received no answer, what would happen had Tubby Smith joined WCN ? would all "Tubby-bashing" have been called off then ?

The kids are off-limits as far as I'm concerned. The distinction has to do with the fact that the kids are amateurs, the adults in the business are not even close to amateur status, and the adults are, as DC says above, adults.

At 30 years old, I can take a whole lot more than I could at 19 or 20. There's a chasm-wide difference in maturity, and that should be taken into consideration when you come to these boards.

If we're banning people for bashing coaches, there'd be no board. There'd be no board at WCN or anywhere else for that matter. It's become "now" -- to borrow a term from SportsCenter -- to bash coaches and administrators all over sports. Sometimes I don't agree with it, sometimes I can see the fans' point -- but that's just how it is. You moderate that stuff and the board shrivels up to nothing.

[POEKLM]

I think it is all about manners and a little thing called courtesy. Do you want to hurt someone's feelings? Intentionally? Most don't but I think we forget some of us are friends with these players. Some of us are related to these players. And all of us are represented by these players. When we are sipping a drink reading a monitor those players may be running til they are about to puke. When we are typing our complaints they may be lifting weights til their muscles are burning. They make sacrifices (and they are getting rewards) to represent the Big Blue.

There are just ways to get your point across without being hurtful.

[poodoo]

I think it is all about manners and a little thing called courtesy. Do you want to hurt someone's feelings? Intentionally? Most don't but I think we forget some of us are friends with these players. Some of us are related to these players. And all of us are represented by these players. When we are sipping a drink reading a monitor those players may be running til they are about to puke. When we are typing our complaints they may be lifting weights til their muscles are burning. They make sacrifices (and they are getting rewards) to represent the Big Blue.

There are just ways to get your point across without being hurtful.

You make so much sense here, POEKLM. Unfortunately, though, those who would write potentially hurtful comments about our players who are indeed working so hard, partially FOR US FANS, somehow do and will not stop to think whether or not the comments could be hurtful.

Will's example of the folks' booing Sheray is perfect. How upsetting that was to me (and every time any UK player has been booed), but it is obviously NOT upsetting to SOME fans. In other words, with some the need to rant or boo a player ranks higher than any concern for any potential hurt the player might experience. Regardless, what you have said is excellent, and hopefully the point you have made will make posters THINK before they make comments about our players.

You excellently said that while any of us are negatively posting about a particular player, that player may be running so hard that he "pukes." Well, ironically, the booing and some of the stuff about our players (and recruits) on message boards does tend to make me feel like "puking." GO CATS! GO BILLY G!

[poodoo]

More to the point:

I just can't tolerate player bashing. You can get on a kid for not playing well, for not hustling, for being selfish, for having an off-game or whatever. But if you're blasting the players in a malevolent manner in the way that DC talks about, you don't need to be on a public message board. The coaches are fair game to a certain extent, but not the players.

I think most on WCN would agree with that.

There's certainly agreement from this corner. GO CATS! GO BILLY G!

[poodoo]

I've been seeing a lot of chatter about whether players will transfer, who they will be, and why they should go. That doesn't bother me. What does, though, are the people who are rooting for players to transfer: those who "can't wait to see" someone gone (from a different board's post); who'll be "glad to see" certain players gone (ksr comments); and those who even want scholarships revoked for the "tubby recruits" Stevenson, Williams, and Porter (several sites).



So try to lose the notion that certain players "must" transfer because they won't see much time. That's not the way basketball has ever worked, and not the way it works now. I have no idea where this notion came from, but it's incorrect at the least, and disgusting when it involves rooting for members of your own team to leave because you want some better player, or because you hate the previous coach.

I agree, DCWildcat, that it's "disgusting." Actually, the adjective that had come to my mind was "sickening."

Thanks, still again, to our administrators and moderators at WCN. Reading such makes me appreciate you all the more. GO CATS! GO BILLY G! GO WCN!

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

good posts by all

[scfcats]

This is maybe a little bit off-topic, but I've noticed a pretty drastic change in message boards in the last five years or so.

The MySpace/Facebook craze has drawn a lot of teenagers and college students to these boards. These kids often have different ideas about what message boards should be like; they have this notion that the boards are these free-for-all battle royales where the most aggressive poster "wins." Most of the big free boards are mired in this kind of posting.

So what you get is a wealth of poor discussion where posters try to out-insult the next guy. And in their cowardly anonymity, they also have no compunction about insulting our players. After all, there are no checks and balances in the cyber world.

This is why I like WCN so much. You just don't see that kind of thing here.

Agreed. I think a lot of that kind of poster has anger issues, and can't get away with that stuff in the real world. Part of what makes this site great is the discussion, the language rules (are enforced well) help with this too.

[AlaCat]

Sometimes you just have to face reality. They are a couple of players on this team that will never contribute.
We could certaintly use the scholorships for quality players next season.
If we're are to get back on top again, we need great players.

[Will Lavender]

Sometimes you just have to face reality. They are a couple of players on this team that will never contribute.
We could certaintly use the scholorships for quality players next season.
If we're are to get back on top again, we need great players.

Maybe so, but I think DCWildcat is talking about the way posters discuss this issue rather than the discussion itself.

[sardiscat]

"They are a couple of players on this team that will never contribute."

Quite possibly true, but nobody on this board knows who they are at this point in time. The posters who put down players do so for the same reason that anybody puts down anybody--to make themselves important in their own minds.

[POEKLM]

"They are a couple of players on this team that will never contribute."

Quite possibly true, but nobody on this board knows who they are at this point in time. The posters who put down players do so for the same reason that anybody puts down anybody--to make themselves important in their own minds.
IF they wear that uniform they are contributing. They are running, sweating and working just like the starters.

[poodoo]

"They are a couple of players on this team that will never contribute."

Quite possibly true, but nobody on this board knows who they are at this point in time. The posters who put down players do so for the same reason that anybody puts down anybody--to make themselves important in their own minds.

Your post, sardiscat, reminds me of what I always shared with my students when I taught. I said that folks who PUT DOWN OTHERS are usually merely trying to make themselves bigger. I added that those who do so are, in reality, only "this tall," positioning my thumb and forefinger to measure a couple of inches." Putting down others is definitely NOT my "cup of tea," and I try to defend those who are being put down.

As POEKLM just said, even if some players rarely play in a game, they are STILL contributing. Our former coach would often praise those players for their contributions in practice. As POEKLM just said, all the players work, run, and SWEAT, just like the starters. FWIW, I sincerely appreciate ALL of them for that. GO CATS! GO BILLY G!