Anyone else having concerns about a big man?

[eman484]

As I was looking back over the last 13 years of national champions, I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence. Some examples recently are Noah & Horford, Sean May, Chris Wilcox, Carlos Boozer, Emeka Okafor and it goes back to our last championships when we had guys like Jamaal Magloire, Nazr Mohammed and Walter McCarty roaming the paint.

We don't know if Jared Carter will ever play a freaking game as a wildcat and early reports on Mike Williams are that he is not going to be anything special. As of now our only true inside presence is Patterson and he has voiced his displeasure of the thought of playing the 5-spot in the past.

I just wish there was something set in stone for our future in the paint. Seems like we have the perimeter locked up for years to come, but a commitment from standout big man would make dreams of championship trophies dance in my head all night.

[sardiscat]

"I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence."

Who do you remember winning without a real inside presence?

[Tom Blevins]

As I was looking back over the last 13 years of national champions, I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence. Some examples recently are Noah & Horford, Sean May, Chris Wilcox, Carlos Boozer, Emeka Okafor and it goes back to our last championships when we had guys like Jamaal Magloire, Nazr Mohammed and Walter McCarty roaming the paint.

We don't know if Jared Carter will ever play a freaking game as a wildcat and early reports on Mike Williams are that he is not going to be anything special. As of now our only true inside presence is Patterson and he has voiced his displeasure of the thought of playing the 5-spot in the past.

I just wish there was something set in stone for our future in the paint. Seems like we have the perimeter locked up for years to come, but a commitment from standout big man would make dreams of championship trophies dance in my head all night.

I still believe that Mike Williams WILL be something special, but probably not this comming season. Hopefully Carter will be back in time to help us in the SEC. If only Stevenson could put on some weight, he has the ability to help us right now.

[DCWildcat]

Think everyone's got concerns about our big men

[Will Lavender]

"I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence."

Who do you remember winning without a real inside presence?

Villanova two years ago is one I remember winning a lot, but of course they got beat in the Elite 8. Memphis that same year relied on a freshman, Joey Dorsey, who was pretty raw. Kentucky with Daniels and Hayes comes to mind, but of course that team flamed out in the second round. Gonzaga seems to have had some teams that didn't have tremendous threats inside, but again, that program has never made it past the Sweet 16. Marquette went to the Final Four with Robert Jackson in the pivot, but he was at least a formidable body. Roy Williams has had success at North Carolina playing power forwards at center with May and then Hansbrough, but his teams have had more talent than this UK one will have. Michigan State won a national championship with Zach Randolph in the middle, but that guy is a beast regardless of a true position.

That's all I've got, and it ain't much.

[eman484]

"I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence."

Who do you remember winning without a real inside presence?

The 2003 Syracuse team, but they had Carmelo Anthony

The 2000 Michigan State team with Mateen Cleaves

The 1999 UCONN Huskies with Rip Hamilton

[Will Lavender]

The 1999 UCONN Huskies with Rip Hamilton

That team did have Jake Voskuhl.

Syracuse '03 is a good one.

[9thregionUKfan]

That team did have Jake Voskuhl.

Syracuse '03 is a good one.

didn't the 03 cuse have that big goofy white guy? he was a 7 footer i do believe, maybe not a star but certainly a contributor. or maybe i'm wrong. help!

[RCS]

Some examples recently are Noah & Horford, Sean May, Chris Wilcox, Carlos Boozer, Emeka Okafor .
I am concerned, but Sean May, Chris Wilcox & Carlos Boozer are all PFs. We have a couple of PFs. Duke hasn't played with a true center in years and ussually is play 2 SF also. Someone has to bang and rebound, but I am not sure they have to be 7 tall anymore. Boozer is more Patterson's size than center size(in college). Same with Sheldon Williams. He is only about 6'7-6'8" and he had a very solid career at Duke. Carter and Williams contributing would obviously be the ideal situation, but if Patterson, Stevenson, Stewart and Harris can bang down low we may be alright. None of those guys is very tall or very wide though.

[Bird]

That team did have Jake Voskuhl.

Syracuse '03 is a good one.

But Syracuse only plays zone, so its quite a bit easier for them to be without a presence in the middle.

[CATHEAD]

didn't the 03 cuse have that big goofy white guy? he was a 7 footer i do believe, maybe not a star but certainly a contributor. or maybe i'm wrong. help!

He's not quite 7'. His name's Jim Boeheim. Nah, just kidding. I like Boeheim. But I like his wife better. Anybody else think she's hot? I think she's a CWILF - that's Coache's Wife.....well, better not go there.

[charms]

"Carter and Williams contributing would obviously be the ideal situation, but if Patterson, Stevenson, Stewart and Harris can bang down low we may be alright. None of those guys is very tall or very wide though".

Quote by RCS

I do agree but if they are as athletic as BCG says, that may just make up for them not being as tall or wide.:shrug1:

[Will Lavender]

didn't the 03 cuse have that big goofy white guy? he was a 7 footer i do believe, maybe not a star but certainly a contributor. or maybe i'm wrong. help!

Craig Forth, I think.

[eman484]

Chris Wilcox was 6'10...he was defnitly like a PF/C combo....we have all strictly PFs...and though Sean May was only like 6'9" he was like Glen Davis (a wide-body back to the basket player)...I just wish Stevenson could polish his game up because we really don't need to score a ton of points on the blocks we just need someone who can alter shots on defense and someone to keep the ball alive on offensive rebounds. I think Perry can do that, but his passing, defensive positioning and footwork must improve dramatically. I was really hopeful about Jared Carter progressing and becoming a sold center this year, but it he just seems like he is becoming an injury-prone project. Once he gets healthy, will he be able to stay healthy? I don't have a lot of faith in that, so I would just be happy to see a commitment from someone taller than 6'9.......On a good note though, reports have said A.J. Stewart has grown more and is now firmly at 6'8 and is about the same size as Patterson. That's a big plus IMO.

[Will Lavender]

Chris Wilcox was 6'10...he was defnitly like a PF/C combo....

The Wilcox example doesn't really work anyway, considering Lonny Baxter was Maryland's center.

EDIT: I may be wrong here. But IIRC, Baxter was the guy who operated in the pivot for them. Wilcox ran the court, played defense, scored off garbage.

[9thregionUKfan]

The Wilcox example doesn't really work anyway, considering Lonny Baxter was Maryland's center.

EDIT: I may be wrong here. But IIRC, Baxter was the guy who operated in the pivot for them. Wilcox ran the court, played defense, scored off garbage.

You're definitely right. He was just a raw athlete. Scoring on putback dunks and stuff.

[eman484]

You're right Baxter was their center...regardless they had a couple of big guys who were strictly there to man the paint.

[matt colvin]

Baxter was the center. If you remember our game against them, Wilcox is the one who killed us. Earlier that year, Marcus Haislip (sp?) from Tenn. killed us much the same way.

[RV]

Let me get this straight - you guys are thinking that the lack of a proven inside presence is going to prevent us from winning the NCAA this year? I wouldn't want to bet my house on our winning.

[Will Lavender]

Let me get this straight - you guys are thinking that the lack of a proven inside presence is going to prevent us from winning the NCAA this year? I wouldn't want to bet my house on our winning.

Yeah, this team isn't going to win a championship regardless. There are more issues than just the lack of a big man.

We are certainly going in the right direction, though.

[matt colvin]

It's going to take 2-3 years before we are legit contenders and "should-be" a final four squad. It will take some time.

[DCWildcat]

'03 Syracuse had Hakim Warrick, who was second-team all-american and a finalist for most POY awards.

[eman484]

'03 Syracuse had Hakim Warrick, who was second-team all-american and a finalist for most POY awards.

Yea, but Hakim Warrick was built like Perry Stevenson.

I know we aren't expected to be title contenders this year, but we don't have any big men for next year as of now and I haven't heard of any on our radar for 2009. It just concerns me a little...I don't want to be in another do-or-die recruiting saga with a guy like Tyler Zeller, where we feel like his choice will decide the fate of the program.

[Littlemeyer]

I know we aren't expected to be title contenders this year, but we don't have any big men for next year as of now and I haven't heard of any on our radar for 2009. It just concerns me a little...I don't want to be in another do-or-die recruiting saga with a guy like Tyler Zeller, where we feel like his choice will decide the fate of the program.

You have some very legit concerns, and I have no doubt that a good portion of the fanbase feels the same way. I know I do.

However, one small thing I take solace in is Gillispie's words in his introductory press conference. He's going to base his system, or style of play, on the talent available...rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Coach-speak? Perhaps. But I'm a trusting sort, so until actions prove otherwise I'll sleep well at night. :big_grin:

[BigBlue75]

Concerns? Yes. Worries? Absolutely not. Every year we're going to facing a need at one or more positions, so this is nothing new. We're all in agreement that Coach G is doing a phenominal job, but at the same time, the man is human, not a machine. He's not even been on the job six months. I have all confidence that he will address the problem and I'm sure we'll be happy with the results.

We all need to keep in mind that neither Coach G nor any other coach is going to sign every recruit he goes after, and even though we might not understand it, the UK program is not going to be attractive to every single recruit for a myriad of reason and they're going to go somewhere else. It's just the nature of the beast.

[Littlemeyer]

...but at the same time, the man is human, not a machine.

Link?

[9thregionUKfan]

Link?

Hilarious!

[BigBlue75]

Link?

Huh? :confused: I'm sure there's a pun in there somewhere but I'm not getting it. Am I just slow today or what?

[Will Lavender]

Huh? :confused: I'm sure there's a pun in there somewhere but I'm not getting it. Am I just slow today or what?

Littlemeyer's just pointing out how we've all lofted Gillispie up on this pedestal. You claim he's not a machine, and Littlemeyer is playing the part of the stunned and insulted fan.

What do you mean he's not a machine? :icon_mrgreen:

[BigBlue75]

Littlemeyer's just pointing out how we've all lofted Gillispie up on this pedestal. You claim he's not a machine, and Littlemeyer is playing the part of the stunned and insulted fan.

What do you mean he's not a machine? :icon_mrgreen:

Okay, gotcha. I see the humor now.:icon_mrgreen: The coffee hadn't kicked in yet.
Thanks!:thumbup:

[RCS]

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that big guys develop later generally and so they can bust on to the scene in a hurry. No one had heard of Estill until his SR year. He lost a bunch of weight and dedicated himself and ended up at UK and had a very solid career here. I understand everyone is terrified of 'projects' at this point after Tubby, but the reality is most big guys are a bit of a risk. Even a guy like Zeller is still very raw and needs to add weight. I am concerned, but it is WAY too early to get too nervious about 2008 and beyond. Next year? That is a different story unfortunately:shrug1:

[RaleighCat]

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that big guys develop later generally and so they can bust on to the scene in a hurry. No one had heard of Estill until his SR year. He lost a bunch of weight and dedicated himself and ended up at UK and had a very solid career here. I understand everyone is terrified of 'projects' at this point after Tubby, but the reality is most big guys are a bit of a risk. Even a guy like Zeller is still very raw and needs to add weight. I am concerned, but it is WAY too early to get too nervious about 2008 and beyond. Next year? That is a different story unfortunately:shrug1:

Estill averaged 12/6 in '03; 9/4 in '02; 7/4 in '01. He was the 3rd leading scorer in '03; 3rd leading scorer in '02; 4th leading scorer in '01 (playing beside/behind Jason Parker).
Truthfully, UK wasn't very good in '01 (losing 10 games and bounced by So Cal). '02 was Team Turmoil (losing another 10 games and beaten by MD). 2003 was Tubby's 2nd or 3rd best team overall (behind '98 obviously).
Overall, Estill improved gradually and consistently in three years. He was never really bad- and never truly outstanding. He was a solid big man.

Outstanding big men do exist in college ball- many of them from Day 1. Tyler Hansbrough was the best player at UNC the second he walked on campus. First Team AA freshmen are hard to find, but Hansbrough deserved it. Brandan Wright was fantastic as a frosh. Deon Thompson would've been had he gotten more minutes. All were UK targets, all slipped through our fingers under Tubby Smith.

Let's give BCG some time to establish a playing identity before we start worrying about the long-term future of our big men situation. Patterson might be this year's Brandan Wright. He should at least be as good as Deon Thompson. Other elite bigs might start flocking to Lexington if Patterson/Stevenson show us something this year.

[RCS]

I agree. There absolutely are big men that come in and are good from day 1. Jason Parker was a good big man from day 1 at UK. Also, people talk about Stevenson's weight, but Wright couldn't have been much if any bigger and he was effective. Granted he was playing next to Hansborough which helps. Patterson is not a classic back to the basket scorer, but he is a great talent and I am looking forward to watching this team. We may not be huge, but for the first time in a long time, we are super athletic at the forward positions. Patterson, Stevenson, Stewart and Harris are all great athletes.

[teamchemistry09]

I think we will be fine as long as we play at the pace we need to. We CANNOT slow the ball down we have to use all of our guards and make the other team pass out at half time. We will be fine at the 4 and 5 spot. Having Carter will help a huge amount but if we dont have him we will still be fine. I think PP and Stevenson should be starting at the 4 and 5 anyway. We can always go 4 guards and a big man (not necesseraily a 5) and get away with it for a while because the 5 spot in the SEC is fairly weak this year. Williams will only get better with experience. Im sure he isnt bad enough to where we cant play him at all. Get him huge minutes in blowouts and get him in there for 3 or 4 minutes at a time during other games to give Stevenson and PP a break. So IMO we will be fine at the 5 this year. We can run 4 guards if we have to but Stevenson will be a lot like Warrick was IMO and PP (like mentioned before) could be this years Wright. We just neeed to run the entire time

[eman484]

I think we will be fine as long as we play at the pace we need to. We CANNOT slow the ball down we have to use all of our guards and make the other team pass out at half time. We will be fine at the 4 and 5 spot. Having Carter will help a huge amount but if we dont have him we will still be fine. I think PP and Stevenson should be starting at the 4 and 5 anyway. We can always go 4 guards and a big man (not necesseraily a 5) and get away with it for a while because the 5 spot in the SEC is fairly weak this year. Williams will only get better with experience. Im sure he isnt bad enough to where we cant play him at all. Get him huge minutes in blowouts and get him in there for 3 or 4 minutes at a time during other games to give Stevenson and PP a break. So IMO we will be fine at the 5 this year. We can run 4 guards if we have to but Stevenson will be a lot like Warrick was IMO and PP (like mentioned before) could be this years Wright. We just neeed to run the entire time

Everybody has made some great points in this thread. I think one thing we all can agree on is that the development of Perry Stevenson could have a big effect on this team. If he develops into a shutdown defender and shotblocker and can go for about 8 and 8 everynight, I think we can have a really good team. I am anxious to see how our perimeter shapes up because we are going to have a plethora of weapons at the 1, 2 and 3 spots. One thing is for sure, I think we will see some fast and exciting UK basketball that we haven't seen in a long time.

[sardiscat]

I had to go back all the way to Wooden's '64 and '65 teams to think of a team that won the championship without much of an inside presence. Syracuse had Anthony, Warrick, and the bulky big (and surprisingly efficient) guy (seems like they had two of them, actually). Anthony was like Antoine Walker for UK in that, although he shot quite a bit from outside, he was a very effective inside player. UL in '80 was about the smallest team I can remember to win the title since '65. It had Wiley Brown at 6'8 and Rodney McCray at 6'7, and nobody else over 6'5. Of course, it also didn't have anybody under 6'4. Bottom line: it is not possible to win the NCAA in this day and age playing 4 guards. Neither UK nor anybody else who has aspirations of going all the way should be considering a 4 guard linuep.

[RaleighCat]

There's a huge difference between "Four Guard Lineup" and "No True Center Lineup."

I think UK will play with the latter, not the former.

[Will Lavender]

I had to go back all the way to Wooden's '64 and '65 teams to think of a team that won the championship without much of an inside presence. Syracuse had Anthony, Warrick, and the bulky big (and surprisingly efficient) guy (seems like they had two of them, actually). Anthony was like Antoine Walker for UK in that, although he shot quite a bit from outside, he was a very effective inside player. UL in '80 was about the smallest team I can remember to win the title since '65. It had Wiley Brown at 6'8 and Rodney McCray at 6'7, and nobody else over 6'5. Of course, it also didn't have anybody under 6'4. Bottom line: it is not possible to win the NCAA in this day and age playing 4 guards. Neither UK nor anybody else who has aspirations of going all the way should be considering a 4 guard linuep.

I agree with your last sentence for the most part, but to play devil's advocate:

The game has changed radically in the last 10 years or so. It is more of a guard's game now than it has ever been, and it's not close. You watch basketball clips of last season and then watch some of the stuff that ESPN Classic shows sometimes from the '70s and '80s, and it's not even the same game.

I'm not saying this to downplay the importance of a big guy, but if there was ever a time when a team could get by with playing 4 guards, it's now. In an age where even the 6'8" guys want to go out there and shoot threes, the post has become an area where not many skilled players roam.

[9thregionUKfan]

I agree with your last sentence for the most part, but to play devil's advocate:

The game has changed radically in the last 10 years or so. It is more of a guard's game now than it has ever been, and it's not close. You watch basketball clips of last season and then watch some of the stuff that ESPN Classic shows sometimes from the '70s and '80s, and it's not even the same game.

I'm not saying this to downplay the importance of a big guy, but if there was ever a time when a team could get by with playing 4 guards, it's now. In an age where even the 6'8" guys want to go out there and shoot threes, the post has become an area where not many skilled players roam.

I totally agree Will. There is a fascination with the 3-pointer now and if you're 6'10"+ and can shoot the 3 you're the next Dirk Nowitzki. Plus, there hasn't really been a truly dominant big man since Tim Duncan left Wake (i'm not counting Oden). And I didnt see Wake win any national championships.

[I. Melvin]

Certainly the three has dramatically changed the game. Does Ewing's GU team win it all under today's rules? Brutes down low, I recall they were masons from outside.

Still, our lack of rebounding struck me as one of our weaknesses last year - and we had Randolph and Woo (sure wish Woo was back).

I'm hopeful that Perry and Patrick become a formidable rebounding tandem. Fortunately, Jodie and Joe are good rebounders for guards, but I doubt we're going to outdo many good teams on the glass.

Harris showed some rebounding instincts, as did DJ. And Coury can pillage.

It's all going to depend on matchups - which is another reason I'm glad we have Gillispie.

[lribookend]

Certainly the three has dramatically changed the game. Does Ewing's GU team win it all under today's rules? Brutes down low, I recall they were masons from outside.

Still, our lack of rebounding struck me as one of our weaknesses last year - and we had Randolph and Woo (sure wish Woo was back).

I'm hopeful that Perry and Patrick become a formidable rebounding tandem. Fortunately, Jodie and Joe are good rebounders for guards, but I doubt we're going to outdo many good teams on the glass.

Harris showed some rebounding instincts, as did DJ. And Coury can pillage.

It's all going to depend on matchups - which is another reason I'm glad we have Gillispie.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Great Post, I.Melvin :thumbup: :big_grin: However, I do think that an athletic team, with motivated and well-coached players, has a good chance of out-rebounding other teams, even if they don't have as much height. Rebounding depends on timing, effort, technique, positioning, conditioning and desire, as well as height. You can't coach height, but you can coach everything else. Let's hope our current coach can get a lot out of our team in that area. Without a good rebounding team, you face an uphill battle to win games.

[poodoo]

Concerns? Yes. Worries? Absolutely not. Every year we're going to facing a need at one or more positions, so this is nothing new. We're all in agreement that Coach G is doing a phenominal job, but at the same time, the man is human, not a machine. He's not even been on the job six months. I have all confidence that he will address the problem and I'm sure we'll be happy with the results.

We all need to keep in mind that neither Coach G nor any other coach is going to sign every recruit he goes after, and even though we might not understand it, the UK program is not going to be attractive to every single recruit for a myriad of reason and they're going to go somewhere else. It's just the nature of the beast.

Good post and reminders to us fans, Big Blue 75. Also, HILARIOUS response, Littlemeyer. :icon_lol: While I don't drink coffee, Big Blue 75, it had still "kicked in,' and I had immediately enjoyed Littlemeyer's comment. :icon_biggrin:

In regard to your post, I. Melvin, I so agree that rebounding problems SO HURT the past two UK basketball teams. Like you, though, I'm trusting Coach Gillispie to handle it. Also, like Iribookend just stated, athletic teams tend to rebound fairly well, even without a lot of height. We will have more athleticism this year. Let's HOPE that we fare well in that area, for rebounding is indeed so important in regard to winning games. GO CATS! GO BILLY G!

[cnice11]

As I was looking back over the last 13 years of national champions, I notcied that only a select fews teams actually won without a real inside presence. Some examples recently are Noah & Horford, Sean May, Chris Wilcox, Carlos Boozer, Emeka Okafor and it goes back to our last championships when we had guys like Jamaal Magloire, Nazr Mohammed and Walter McCarty roaming the paint.

We don't know if Jared Carter will ever play a freaking game as a wildcat and early reports on Mike Williams are that he is not going to be anything special. As of now our only true inside presence is Patterson and he has voiced his displeasure of the thought of playing the 5-spot in the past.

I just wish there was something set in stone for our future in the paint. Seems like we have the perimeter locked up for years to come, but a commitment from standout big man would make dreams of championship trophies dance in my head all night.

I think we play uptempo next year, the lack of big man will not hurt us a whole lot. I dont really worry about a "true" big man, I think if the players we know are going to get a big chunk of minutes can get some rebounds and play post defense we should be OK. I know the guy was special, but if we can have a Chuck Hayes type player; nothing flashy just a solid rebounder and defensive player. We will have as someone else said some players at the forward spots that will be huge- whether its Stevenson or Harris, or Patterson. Also if we do play uptempo and our guards are hitting shots, it might not matter how big we are.