Kentucky @ Georgia Officials Report.

[lighthouse]

Before making this report, and after reading some posts on other threads, I would like to restate the reasons I make an officials report. First of all, they are for TRUE Kentucky fans who have a desire to learn more about this great game of basketball. And because officials are an important part of the game, want to know more about what and why the officials do what they do. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with the officials, I sure don't, but I report what I see and how I see it. I also don't expect everyone to agree with my assessment of the officials. Also, we have had some very good questions and discussions about the rules and sometimes specific calls. I hope they are beneficial, and I intend to keep making them.

1. Ted Valentine 2. J B Caldwell 3. Antinio Petty. My recording didn't start until the game had started and they didn't name the officials.

Missed Walks 8 Palms 3

My main concerns.

Foul called on #44 w on #3 blue should have been intentional. Mr Petty was late getting into position and thus didn't move under basket to see entire play.

Foul called on #5 blue, could've been a held ball.

Petty, missed "on the back" by # 54 blue.

Missed 3 second call on #34 white.

Crawford, missed push-off by #44 white on #5 blue, shot by #2 white.

Petty @ lead, too wide to see "on back" # 44 white on # 54 blue.

Foul called on #30 white-no contack with # 54 blue.

Valentine, in position, #30 white slid foot on baseline-no call.

Basket interference on # 44 white, hit ball in cylinder after shot by # 54 blue.

Missed obvious hold on # 32 white guarding # 5 blue in mid court area.

I also thought # 44 white got away with several "illegal use of hands", he is very good at disguising them.

Summary;
Crew had trouble all game with floor coverage and switching. Flex coverage wasn't working as more than once, 2 officials were in same area, especially @ lead position. Valentine seemed to be the one causing the confusion. Valentine got caught in the center of the court with ball toward sideline, recovered good and no ill affects on game. Valentine and Petty had out-of-bounds calls and no "stop clock" mechanic. Caldwell and Petty seemed to disappear late in game but probably because Mr Valentine took every call. Off ball coverage was ok. Lead official being to wide with ball in paint was a problem in this game. Check with Conference office about discription of intentional foul.

Mr Caldwell B+; Mr Petty B-; Mr Valentine C

[Wildcat Larry]

From your report there seemed to be a lot of officials out of position in this game. You also seemed to have seen a larger than normal number of missed calls in this game. Overall, was this game one of the poor ones from officials, or is it "normal" (whatever that is) for there to be this many positioning and missed call issues in a game.

I a real fast pace game, I can see the officials missing more, but this wasn't a real fast pace game. I thought both teams played pretty good defense.

Did you see Georgia going out of their way to make some sort of contact with UK players all day. Bliss was into elbow swinging most of the afternoon and I thought he should have at least been warned by the officials. I thought things could have gotten ugly if one of those swings had made contact.

[NOWIS]

Valentime, Caldwell and Petty were the officials.

How about the continuation call. The man was fouled at the foul line, took two more steps and made a lay in. I didn't think there was a continuation in college ball

[Praray]

I felt this might have been the weakest officiated game I have seen the Cats play this year. Not a home job but UK did get several bad calls. Agree, the call of regular foul on Bradley on the break away should have been an intentional foul. Lack of officiating consistency bothered me throughout this game, more than any other I have viewed this season.

[TouchNotTheCat]

It was Antinio Petty, not Anthony Jordan.

[SamKat]

Thanks again Lighthouse.

I like the perspective of an official such as yourself. I have felt that fans in the stands or on TV often have a better view than the officials on the floor, although most of us don't have the expertise you do. The plays have to be called when they are witnessed by the officials. There is no time for a committee meeting out there.

[AugustaDan]

I also appreciate the reports lighthouse.

One thing I don't recall you discussing that I'm interested in after reading your reports is how the officials are supposed to be positioned to cover the floor. Would you mind explaining that?

[lighthouse]

It was Antinio Petty, not Anthony Jordan.

Thanks. I couldn't get a good look at his face and he looks like Mr. Jordan. As I said, my TV recorded the start of the Uconn game and switched to ours.

[hardwood2]

Valentime, Caldwell and Petty were the officials.

How about the continuation call. The man was fouled at the foul line, took two more steps and made a lay in. I didn't think there was a continuation in college ball


That was a strange call. The ref blew the whistle, the KY player backed off (as he should, the play is dead) and then the layup which was awarded. Seems it would have been better to pound the guy on into the floor after the whistle.

[lighthouse]

From your report there seemed to be a lot of officials out of position in this game. You also seemed to have seen a larger than normal number of missed calls in this game. Overall, was this game one of the poor ones from officials, or is it "normal" (whatever that is) for there to be this many positioning and missed call issues in a game.

I a real fast pace game, I can see the officials missing more, but this wasn't a real fast pace game. I thought both teams played pretty good defense.

Did you see Georgia going out of their way to make some sort of contact with UK players all day. Bliss was into elbow swinging most of the afternoon and I thought he should have at least been warned by the officials. I thought things could have gotten ugly if one of those swings had made contact.

This crew had some coverage problems, and it looked to me like Valentine was the problem. This was the first SEC game I've seen him work this year, which could've been the reason. All conferences don't teach the new "Flex" coverage the same.

I would say there were a few more things I disagreed with, and some of it was caused by the lead official staying to far from the paint. IMO, the center can't cover that area like the lead can, when he's in correct position.

I did see #44 white move people around a lot, but mostly when I reran plays and slowed them down. He's very crafty in the way he uses his arms and butt. I didn't see any "excessive" elbows, which is a violation.

Good questions!

[lighthouse]

Valentime, Caldwell and Petty were the officials.

How about the continuation call. The man was fouled at the foul line, took two more steps and made a lay in. I didn't think there was a continuation in college ball

I understand why you think it was wrong, but I don't think it was and here's why. I'll attempt to quote the rule without looking it up.

When an offensive player first picks up the ball is when a try begins. The try ends when he returns to the floor.

In this play, the Ga player was fouled as soon as he picked up the ball. He then took his 2 legal steps and shot the ball. Not like the NBA, but close.

Another great question!

[lighthouse]

I felt this might have been the weakest officiated game I have seen the Cats play this year. Not a home job but UK did get several bad calls. Agree, the call of regular foul on Bradley on the break away should have been an intentional foul. Lack of officiating consistency bothered me throughout this game, more than any other I have viewed this season.

I tend to agree, but I thought some of the early games were much worse. Although this crew had it's problem with consistency, I thought it was on both ends.

[lighthouse]

Thanks again Lighthouse.

I like the perspective of an official such as yourself. I have felt that fans in the stands or on TV often have a better view than the officials on the floor, although most of us don't have the expertise you do. The plays have to be called when they are witnessed by the officials. There is no time for a committee meeting out there.

Thanks Sam. There have been test run with TV camera's in various spots in the arena, and believe me, when an official is in correct position, nobody has a better look at a play than him. They put a camera in the coaches box, one about 15 rows up-mid court, on each side, and some even higher, and of course where the official should be. Tests left no doubt.

[lighthouse]

I also appreciate the reports lighthouse.

One thing I don't recall you discussing that I'm interested in after reading your reports is how the officials are supposed to be positioned to cover the floor. Would you mind explaining that?

That is a great question, but I'm not sure how to answer it. I wish I could but a diagram of the court on here, so I could place the officials in the ideal spots. Of course, they have to move accordingly when the ball and players move. But I'll take a stab at it.

Even though there are 3 officials, it's still basically a 2 man game. Depending on where the ball is, one official is primary and the other is secondary, with the third watching off ball. The primary would have the count, while the secondary would know where the ball is, but not concentrating entirely on it. They would have the ball side blocked, while the third would have the rest of the court. There's so much more to explain, but I've probably confused you enough. We need to watch a game together.

[Will Lavender]

I tend to agree, but I thought some of the early games were much worse. Although this crew had it's problem with consistency, I thought it was on both ends.

I agree. After watching it a second time, UGA got jobbed as much as we did -- maybe more.

Poor day all around for that crew.

[Wildcat Larry]

I watch alot of games and I've seen Valentine working at least three other SEC games, so it wasn't Ted's first SEC rodeo. He does seem to think he's the one to make all the calls and he loves strutting over to the scorers table so everybody can watch him. He's a bit too arrogant for me.

[wanderingcat]

Our memories can be short. This was a weakly officiated game, but the officials did not determine the outcome on the floor, although that is always possible with a missed call here and there. Imho the Mississippi State game WAS determined by the officials in that they determined to call the game in such a way that a supposed dominant player was given the benefit of the doubt game long. I can live with missed calls, including the play with Bradley and the interference call, but deliberately permitting a "style" of play whereby one team gets a forty minute advantage goes beyond poor officiating. That is how I see the difference in the two games.

[flacat22]

Lighthouse I noticed that Valentine had a black box in the middle of his back with "Precision Time" on it...is he also keeping his own time as the game is played in addition to the scorer? Just curious as I had never noticed it before.:shrug1:

[UKBOO]

This crew had some coverage problems, and it looked to me like Valentine was the problem. This was the first SEC game I've seen him work this year, which could've been the reason. All conferences don't teach the new "Flex" coverage the same.

I would say there were a few more things I disagreed with, and some of it was caused by the lead official staying to far from the paint. IMO, the center can't cover that area like the lead can, when he's in correct position.

I did see #44 white move people around a lot, but mostly when I reran plays and slowed them down. He's very crafty in the way he uses his arms and butt. I didn't see any "excessive" elbows, which is a violation.

Good questions!
That 44 white guy is crafty. UK usually recovers better when someone beats a guy off the dribble. I wondered why UK wasn't recovering as Georgia was getting to the rim over and over, so I started watching it closer. That 44 white guy was screening from his post position, and moving the whole time. He was more like a blocker than an off the ball screener.

[KennesawCat]

That is a great question, but I'm not sure how to answer it. I wish I could but a diagram of the court on here, so I could place the officials in the ideal spots. Of course, they have to move accordingly when the ball and players move. But I'll take a stab at it.

Even though there are 3 officials, it's still basically a 2 man game. Depending on where the ball is, one official is primary and the other is secondary, with the third watching off ball. The primary would have the count, while the secondary would know where the ball is, but not concentrating entirely on it. They would have the ball side blocked, while the third would have the rest of the court. There's so much more to explain, but I've probably confused you enough. We need to watch a game together.

Lighthouse: with the 3 man crews, and the very complicated positioning and rotation, could the problem with so many missed/bad calls come from each official having to keep one eye on the other officials to get their proper positioning on the floor instead of concentrating on the play?

[lighthouse]

Lighthouse: with the 3 man crews, and the very complicated positioning and rotation, could the problem with so many missed/bad calls come from each official having to keep one eye on the other officials to get their proper positioning on the floor instead of concentrating on the play?

That seemed to be the case in this game. That's why teamwork is so important, even with the officials.

[UKBOO]

That seemed to be the case in this game. That's why teamwork is so important, even with the officials.

Seems to me that if everyone is in the spot they are supposed to be, they wouldn't have to watch out for one another... :shrug1:

[lighthouse]

Lighthouse I noticed that Valentine had a black box in the middle of his back with "Precision Time" on it...is he also keeping his own time as the game is played in addition to the scorer? Just curious as I had never noticed it before.:shrug1:

All 3 officials have that box. It's connected to their whistle and the clock. When they blow the whistle, it stops the clock, and everytime they put the ball in play they push the button to start the clock again.

[lighthouse]

Seems to me that if everyone is in the spot they are supposed to be, they wouldn't have to watch out for one another... :shrug1:

That would be ideal, and for the coaches and players too.

[Wildcat Larry]

I understand why you think it was wrong, but I don't think it was and here's why. I'll attempt to quote the rule without looking it up.

When an offensive player first picks up the ball is when a try begins. The try ends when he returns to the floor.

In this play, the Ga player was fouled as soon as he picked up the ball. He then took his 2 legal steps and shot the ball. Not like the NBA, but close.

Another great question!

If this, indeed, is the proper interpretation of "continuation" then I saw SEC referees make this call just the opposite way in three other SEC games yesterday. In every case, the player had picked up the ball was fouled, then took an additional step before shooting the ball. All were call "on the floor" calls.

By your definition above, it wasn't a continuation, either. You say that a try begins when a player picks up the ball and ends when he returns to the floor. Well, didn't he return to the floor when he made the two legal steps you elude to? Therefore, it shouldn't have been a continuation. He returned to the floor before that ball left his hand so the "shot" was over when he took the step after the foul was called.

That's my take on it.

[flacat22]

All 3 officials have that box. It's connected to their whistle and the clock. When they blow the whistle, it stops the clock, and everytime they put the ball in play they push the button to start the clock again.


What will they think of next? Guess its hard wired so there's no chance of a phantom whistle from the crowd messing it up huh? Thanks for the insight, I thought he got a new iphone

[WildcatRick]

If this, indeed, is the proper interpretation of "continuation" then I saw SEC referees make this call just the opposite way in three other SEC games yesterday. In every case, the player had picked up the ball was fouled, then took an additional step before shooting the ball. All were call "on the floor" calls.

By your definition above, it wasn't a continuation, either. You say that a try begins when a player picks up the ball and ends when he returns to the floor. Well, didn't he return to the floor when he made the two legal steps you elude to? Therefore, it shouldn't have been a continuation. He returned to the floor before that ball left his hand so the "shot" was over when he took the step after the foul was called.

That's my take on it.

I agree.

[UKBOO]

If this, indeed, is the proper interpretation of "continuation" then I saw SEC referees make this call just the opposite way in three other SEC games yesterday. In every case, the player had picked up the ball was fouled, then took an additional step before shooting the ball. All were call "on the floor" calls.

By your definition above, it wasn't a continuation, either. You say that a try begins when a player picks up the ball and ends when he returns to the floor. Well, didn't he return to the floor when he made the two legal steps you elude to? Therefore, it shouldn't have been a continuation. He returned to the floor before that ball left his hand so the "shot" was over when he took the step after the foul was called.

That's my take on it.

There is absolutely no doubt that based on how that call is made at the college level, game in and game out, that was a bad call. The shot was clearly an afterthought. If that were an NBA game, its a different story.

Again, I do not think the college version or the pro version are wrong, its just the interpretation at those levels. Call it the same the whole game. THAT was an inconsistent call, therefore it was a bad call...

[KyWildcats7]

yup, was clearly "continuation" IMO.

[lighthouse]

If this, indeed, is the proper interpretation of "continuation" then I saw SEC referees make this call just the opposite way in three other SEC games yesterday. In every case, the player had picked up the ball was fouled, then took an additional step before shooting the ball. All were call "on the floor" calls.

By your definition above, it wasn't a continuation, either. You say that a try begins when a player picks up the ball and ends when he returns to the floor. Well, didn't he return to the floor when he made the two legal steps you elude to? Therefore, it shouldn't have been a continuation. He returned to the floor before that ball left his hand so the "shot" was over when he took the step after the foul was called.

That's my take on it.

Ok, you got me. :) I knew I should have looked this up, but I was trying to make it simple. Here are the rules concerning a try, and continuous motion.
Rule 4, Section 12. Continuous motion. Article1. Continuous motion applies to a try for field goal or free throw, but shall have no significence unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval that begins when the habitual movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap, and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
Rule 4, Section 67. Try for field goal/act of shooting. Article 2. The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not have to leave the player's hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he may be making an attempt.
Article 3. A try shall end when the throw is successful, it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

So, when the Ga player picked up the ball, that began his try. He is entitled to 2 steps before he must release the ball for a try or pass.

Did you notice the officials going to the table to look at the monitor to see if the Ga player had shot or passed the ball after a similar foul?

[Wildcat Larry]

Ok, you got me. :) I forgot to include, "after the attempt." I agree Larry, officials make that call differently, but the call yesterday was correct by rule IMO. Did you notice the officials going to the table to look at the monitor to see if the Ga player had shot or passed the ball after a similar foul?
Yeah, I noticed that, but I thought they were checking to see if the right player was shooting the freethrows. In any event, I thought it was a good thing to do because if might serve to freeze the freethrow shooter. :icon_lol:

[KennesawCat]

Seems to me that if everyone is in the spot they are supposed to be, they wouldn't have to watch out for one another... :shrug1:

What I meant by my question to Lighthouse is: The position of the trail and middle official depends on where the lead official is on the baseline. If the ball reverses, the lead official moves to the other side of the baseline, the trail official becomes the middle official, and the middle official moves to the trail.

So these two guys have to be watching what the baseline official does to get there proper positioning.

[lighthouse]

What I meant by my question to Lighthouse is: The position of the trail and middle official depends on where the lead official is on the baseline. If the ball reverses, the lead official moves to the other side of the baseline, the trail official becomes the middle official, and the middle official moves to the trail.

So these two guys have to be watching what the baseline official does to get there proper positioning.

You're right to an extent. If proper teamwork is applied, which yesterday it wasn't, each official knows where they should be depending on where the ball is. It only takes a split second to know where your partners are, and normally you do it without thinking about it.

[lighthouse]

Yeah, I noticed that, but I thought they were checking to see if the right player was shooting the freethrows. In any event, I thought it was a good thing to do because if might serve to freeze the freethrow shooter. :icon_lol:

I doubt you will ever be accused of not looking for every advantage. :icon_lol:

[TonyDelkROCKS]

What about the over the backs that Georgia got away with on every defensive rebounding attempt by the Cats?!?!

[NOWIS]

What about the over the backs that Georgia got away with on every defensive rebounding attempt by the Cats?!?!

It really looked like 34 should have brought a saddle in with him

[countrycat]

You all are going to overload lighthouses brain but I love the discussion.

[UKBOO]

What I meant by my question to Lighthouse is: The position of the trail and middle official depends on where the lead official is on the baseline. If the ball reverses, the lead official moves to the other side of the baseline, the trail official becomes the middle official, and the middle official moves to the trail.

So these two guys have to be watching what the baseline official does to get there proper positioning.

Thanks for the response. Lighthouse and I kinda see it the same way. It all depends on ball location. IF everyone is interpreting their positioning to ball location the same way, they do not need to watch each other. It's kind of like a well choreographed dance. Partners must watch each other if they are not very familiar with the routine.

[CarterHall]

However, Saturday wasn't one of them. The foul on Ramel and the continuation were big misses, based on other precendents set. When you spoke of the number of missed calls you seem to be referring to the officials not making enough calls. A lot of officials end up being the center of attention during the games and there is never any flow which allows the kids to play the game. The number of fouls, 14 & 13 I believe, tells me that the game was called evenly. Bottom line with me, I was happy with the refereeing because they didn't make themselves the center of attention.

[poodoo]

It really looked like 34 should have brought a saddle in with him

I noticed the same, NOWIS. That's a pet peeve of mine when players have clearly boxed out. For me, if there's contact from a player's riding another's back, it's a foul. Of course, I have never officiated a single game. :icon_lol: Yes, I remembered his number. :) I also noticed some reach-ins by #44, which lighthouse mentioned in his report. That's a second pet peeve of mine, as officials have been asked to tighten up on those calls.

Overall, though, I had thought the game had been evenly called, or called essentially the same at both ends of the floor, which is what matters the most to me. Although lighthouse may disagreee with what I'm going to say,:icon_lol: I think officials are human (then again, he surely agrees on that! :icon_lol:) and SOMETIMES call the game a bit inconsistently, giving the home team the advantage. Yes, that sometimes occurs at Rupp, too. :big_grin: Such did not occur at Georgia, although there were the three glaring misses (and I'm counting their allowing the "continued" basket to count as one of those, as it is normally not called in that manner by college basketball officials, as others are pointing out).

Most of all, THANK YOU, lighthouse, for the FINE report, as always. I appreciate them. :)

[DCWildcat]

This is one of my favorite threads ever. Lighthouse, I'm eating all of this up. I want more.

[lighthouse]

You're welcome poodoo, and you disagree with me a lot differently than some of the newbie's on here. :big_grin: I appreciate you!

[wizard]

You all are going to overload lighthouses brain but I love the discussion.

how can you overload something that isn't? you all know the old saying: those that can, do; those that can't, coach; and those that don't have a clue, officiate!!!

[lighthouse]

how can you overload something that isn't? you all know the old saying: those that can, do; those that can't, coach; and those that don't have a clue, officiate!!!

:tongue3: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

[countrycat]

how can you overload something that isn't? you all know the old saying: those that can, do; those that can't, coach; and those that don't have a clue, officiate!!!
I wander when he calls his next game Lighthouse.:shrug1:

[SWFLACAT]

I wander when he calls his next game Lighthouse.:shrug1:

Either the 5th thursday of February or the thursday after you get the joke. If I read lighthouse's reply he had heard it before and still finds it somewhat amusing.

lighthouse I appreciate your reports as they do help me understand the game a bit better, but more than anything it helps me see a game through the eyes of an official. I must admit though (and I hope that you don't mind) that sometimes I feel as if you may defend the profession(als) to a certain degree sometimes.

With that said I think everyone should try and understand that there could be any number of calls made each trip down the floor. Then we, as fans, would complain about that too!

To qualify all of the above, I had a whistle once as I was lucky enough to get one in a box of Cracker Jacks and my dog ate it. So now when someone says "has that ref swallowed his whistle" I either laugh or start reminising about the good ole days!