My take on the injury bug.

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

Jasper - Jasper's knee injury occured last season. His type of injury normally takes about a year to recover from. No way you can lay this injury on any coach, last year or this year.

Meeks - Meeks cracked his hip during an exhibition game, simple as that. Meeks has tried to get back on the floor but the initial injury has caused him pain all season and the "over-compensation" on another hip has caused a flexor. Again, not a result of "grueling practices".

Patterson - Can't explain this one, he works hard and never complains the pracitces are "too hard".

Harris and others - broken noses etc, diving for balls in practice and colliding with each other. Sorry folks, they don't wear helmets and pads and this stuff will happen.

I want to close this post by saying that Gillispie practiced his teams the exact same way at El Paso and Texas A&M. I don't think just because these kids practice with Kentucky on their jerseys that it creates injuries. His teams excelled and were in top-condition at A&M and injuries were rarely an issue - so please, put the silly notion that "Billy's practices caused all these injuries to rest". I bet Coach K's, Knights, Laieto's, Calhouns and others aren't picnics either. I heard that Tom Izzo's are the most grueling - they put a lid on each basket and run plays as normal, "every shot is a miss and tests each man's manhood".

I'm glad we're getting tough and each season we'll see our kids get so tough that teams will hate to play us. Ask Huggins, Self, Sutton, Capel and others what they thought of playing A&M the past 2 seasons.

[Rockober]

Its pure bad luck. People want to find blame for everything. Maybe the next UK coach should be a orthapedic surgeon.;)

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

Its pure bad luck. People want to find blame for everything. Maybe the next UK coach should be a orthapedic surgeon.;)
Or a "good man" - I get so tired of that one, we should've hired Billy Graham because we now "have Satan" to some.:icon_evil:

[BigBlue75]

Blaming Coach Gillispie for the all the injuries ranks right down there with wanting to give up on the remaining three games in the season now that Patterson is out.
I don't mean to oversimplify this, but this is just one of those seasons that come along from time to time, and just because the team has "Kentucky" across their jerseys doesn't make them immune to it.

This is the hand they've been dealt and they have to deal with it as a team, as we do as fans.

[BigBlue75]

Or a "good man" - I get so tired of that one, we should've hired Billy Graham because we now "have Satan" to some.:icon_evil:

John, I love ya man, and I agree some of the comments have been over the top, but isn't that a bit much? :icon_neutral:

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

John, I love ya man, and I agree some of the comments have been over the top, but isn't that a bit much? :icon_neutral: Well, I used to hear about how "good of a man Tubby was" and I never, ever disagreed with that but the "basketball" and "recruiting" aspect of it is part of the job description too. I know some who liked Tubby and 22-13 was fine with them as long as we had a "good man" running the program. I always thought, why can't we get a "good man" and a coach who can get us back in the door with blue-chippers and get us over the 9-7 SEC hump? Obviously, BCG is getting both done with decent talent and bad injuries. Imagine what he'll do with very good talent and a healthy roster!! Rick Pitinowas always known as arrogant, tough and a spin-doctor; but people dealt with him because we "won" and "won big". I guess my Billy Graham comment was just a sarcasm that meant "I don't want a coach just because he's a good-guy, I want a ball-coach first and a good person."

[boxerblue]

Again look at the Craft "floor" posts.....don't blame Coach.........other than BCG, the biggest change has been the new practice floor (subfloor..steel vs cork and ash). huge imo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SamKat]

Thanks for the thread, John! Coach Gillispie has worked his smoke and mirrors on this team which he has always claimed as his own. I am anxious to see the rest of this season and our Cats in the SEC. I expect them to compete today at noon.

[cnice11]

The injuries at the beginning of the year, just a fluke. But, I think the Patterson injury might be a sign of wear and tear. I am not trying to blame coach for this one but the young man came from playing, i think its 32 minutes in high school to 40 minutes in college. The only thing I have repeatedly said on here, and I hate to be repetitive, is I think we need to play 3-4 guys off the bench a little more. I know after Jasper its kind of slim, but imo I think we have to rest guys a little more. But, now we are in a situation where he has no choice. I know not many on here think much of Carter and Williams, but why have two big men holding down the bench every game and killing your post player, by playing him so many minutes.

[Realist]

A stress fracture is an overuse injury. Overuse. That CAN be prevented. It has nothing to do with playing 40 minutes per game versus 35 or 32 in high school. It has nothing to do with hard practices. It is the total accumulation of stress. It's about hard AND long AND frequent stress. I'm an advocate of hard practices.

I'm not sure about the floors on the practice court, that may be a factor but to think the training practices had nothing to do with Patterson's injury is ludicrous. Is it not allowed to question ANYTHING about the coach's decisions? I'm beginning to think that is the case.

[lighthouse]

Blaming Coach Gillispie for the all the injuries ranks right down there with wanting to give up on the remaining three games in the season now that Patterson is out.
I don't mean to oversimplify this, but this is just one of those seasons that come along from time to time, and just because the team has "Kentucky" across their jerseys doesn't make them immune to it.

This is the hand they've been dealt and they have to deal with it as a team, as we do as fans.

I can't agree more. It's hard enough for Kentucky fans to deal with all the injuries, but having to endure all the finger pointing is too much. Folks, it's a game and stuff happens. All of us who played any sport has seen the same thing over and over and it doesn't have to be anybody's fault. Everytime we lose, we look for someone to blame. Why? You lace em up, play 40 minutes, take shots and fight for rebounds, in the end you win or lose, and life goes on.

LET'S GET TOGETHER AND GO OUT AND WIN! GOD CATS!!!

[Will Lavender]

Is it not allowed to question ANYTHING about the coach's decisions? I'm beginning to think that is the case.

Sure. But one is also allowed to disagree with you.

I think it's the word "decisions" that I find fault with. I ask you again: what could Gillispie do? Put in someone else? Play someone else? You play your best players, and unfortunately we had to play our best players a whole lot because of poor recruiting in the past. You just can't sub on potential injuries unless a player is noticeably hurt -- which Patterson was not.

As has been pointed out, Patterson isn't playing nearly as much as he will when he makes it to the NBA. Using your logic, the NBA wouldn't have the players to field teams because they'd all be out with stress fractures.

[BigBlue75]

Sure. But one is also allowed to disagree with you.

I think it's the word "decisions" that I find fault with. I ask you again: what could Gillispie do? Put in someone else? Play someone else? You play your best players, and unfortunately we had to play our best players a whole lot because of poor recruiting in the past. You just can't sub on potential injuries unless a player is noticeably hurt -- which Patterson was not.

As has been pointed out, Patterson isn't playing nearly as much as he will when he makes it to the NBA. Using your logic, the NBA wouldn't have the players to field teams because they'd all be out with stress fractures.

It's also important to point out that several doctors who have experience with stress fractures have all said that it's not an "overuse" injury.

[Tom Blevins]

Injuries are a part of sports. I played judo in college, and suffered an injury to my arm. (Thankfully, a minor one. I was able to participate in a match that same week, but was less than 100%.) I believe that the number of injuries that our basketball team has suffered this year is just an incredible run of bad luck. It could have happened if Tubby Smith, or Rick Pitino, or Eddie Sutton, or Joe Hall, or Adolph Rupp were the coach. Hopefully, it will never happen to Kentucky to this extent again. For now our team and Coach Gillispie has to live with it, and it's our job as fans to cheer for them even harder than we did before. Because now is when they really need our support. So GO BIG BLUE!!!!!!!!

[poodoo]

It's ridiculous to blame Coach Gillispie for Patrick's injury. Patrick's playing so many minutes did not cause the injury, according to experts, and Coach's other teams have not had such a history. Also, it is so true that playing in the NBA will surely entail a grueling schedule and more pounding than college. Still further, Patrick himself said that he had had trouble with his ankles in high school, which may or may not have contributed to the problem. I just wish Patrick a speedy recovery and no more problems in the future.

To me, it's ridiculous to play that Blame Game, period. I love most everything, but I HATE that game. :icon_frown: Too, it seems that when a coach is not winning quite as much as fans would like, fans will blame the coach for something for which he is not actually responsible (or place all the blame on him when any blame must be shared). I remember the same thing happening when Coach Brooks' football team had been having so many injuries and had not been winning games. In other words, I don't like the game's being played for ANY coach.

On the other hand, merely looking at the injuries and questioning and seeing if there is any possible cause is something that absolutely should be done. The floor thread is indeed here on the site (based on a post on another board). I haven't read the thread today, but as I had said last night, I feel sure that UK officials are already looking into it, as they seemingly should be. If something needs to be fixed, fix it!

The Blame game itself, period, STINKS. Obviously, so do the injuries. :icon_frown:

P.S. As always, any talk of the former coach and comparisons of apples and oranges (from both directions) just seems so irrelevant to me. The two guys are NOT in any type of competition. At least they SHOULD not be, in my humble opinion. Coach Billy Gillispie is NOW the coach of our Kentucky basketball program, period, and MY coach, and may he please have better LUCK! :) GO CATS! GO COACH G!

[UKBOO]

A stress fracture is an overuse injury. Overuse. That CAN be prevented. It has nothing to do with playing 40 minutes per game versus 35 or 32 in high school. It has nothing to do with hard practices. It is the total accumulation of stress. It's about hard AND long AND frequent stress. I'm an advocate of hard practices.

I'm not sure about the floors on the practice court, that may be a factor but to think the training practices had nothing to do with Patterson's injury is ludicrous. Is it not allowed to question ANYTHING about the coach's decisions? I'm beginning to think that is the case.

It's his ankle. They are using the term stress. But I've seen him turn both ankles in games. This injury is most likely caused by a turn. If something were going to give due to stress, it would be a foot bone. Its just simple physics.

[LiveBlue]

Or a "good man" - I get so tired of that one, we should've hired Billy Graham because we now "have Satan" to some.:icon_evil:

People are rediculous. (Not you, the people that question Gillispie as a person.) Gillispie is a GREAT human being. Did you guys see him at the DanceBlue marathon? That was one of the greatest things I've ever seen from a UK coach. And how about how he called in to that radio show and paid the way for a complete stranger to travel states away to go to her Dad's funeral just out of the kindness of his heart.

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

Thanks for the thread, John! Coach Gillispie has worked his smoke and mirrors on this team which he has always claimed as his own. I am anxious to see the rest of this season and our Cats in the SEC. I expect them to compete today at noon.
SamKat, you said it best- this coach has always called this team his own from the day he took the job. He could easily lay blame on the previous staff for the lack of depth and quality interior players but not once has he. We should all respect this man for that alone - he isn't a blamer.

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

People are rediculous. (Not you, the people that question Gillispie as a person.) Gillispie is a GREAT human being. Did you guys see him at the DanceBlue marathon? That was one of the greatest things I've ever seen from a UK coach. And how about how he called in to that radio show and paid the way for a complete stranger to travel states away to go to her Dad's funeral just out of the kindness of his heart. I did, I noticed this morning the LHL only put "negative" letters about Gillispie in the sports section and of course they were calling everything short of a Volunteer!!:icon_biggrin:

[JOHN BLUEBLOOD]

It's ridiculous to blame Coach Gillispie for Patrick's injury. Patrick's playing so many minutes did not cause the injury, according to experts, and Coach's other teams have not had such a history. Also, it is so true that playing in the NBA will surely entail a grueling schedule and more pounding than college. Still further, Patrick himself said that he had had trouble with his ankles in high school, which may or may not have contributed to the problem. I just wish Patrick a speedy recovery and no more problems in the future.

To me, it's ridiculous to play that Blame Game, period. I love most everything, but I HATE that game. :icon_frown: Too, it seems that when a coach is not winning quite as much as fans would like, fans will blame the coach for something for which he is not actually responsible (or place all the blame on him when any blame must be shared). I remember the same thing happening when Coach Brooks' football team had been having so many injuries and had not been winning games. In other words, I don't like the game's being played for ANY coach.

On the other hand, merely looking at the injuries and questioning and seeing if there is any possible cause is something that absolutely should be done. The floor thread is indeed here on the site (based on a post on another board). I haven't read the thread today, but as I had said last night, I feel sure that UK officials are already looking into it, as they seemingly should be. If something needs to be fixed, fix it!

The Blame game itself, period, STINKS. Obviously, so do the injuries. :icon_frown:

P.S. As always, any talk of the former coach and comparisons of apples and oranges (from both directions) just seems so irrelevant to me. The two guys are NOT in any type of competition. At least they SHOULD not be, in my humble opinion. Coach Billy Gillispie is NOW the coach of our Kentucky basketball program, period, and MY coach, and may he please have better LUCK! :) GO CATS! GO COACH G!
Poodoo, sometimes your posts give me new hope - we need to let you address the team in these dire situations- GO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swimmer77]

Okay, so a stress fracture is an overuse injury and some want to blame CBC. From what I read a stress fracture is also a "common" overuse injury. That word "common" tells me that nobody holds the secret formula of knowing just how much an athlete can tolerate under specific conditions.

I mean for each athlete on the roster can you answer these questions:

How many rebounds and at what height before a stress fracture is suffered? Of course this may depend on how many glasses of milk the athlete had that day and bowls of ice cream eaten.

Is there a history of overturned ankles and for each what was the severity? What was the time span between injury and returning to action? Did the athlete let the staff know his threshold of pain?

And on and on. If you want to place blame then maybe you should also offer a viable solution to the problem if in fact you feel you've accurately pinpointed the problem.

[Realist]

Sure. But one is also allowed to disagree with you.

I think it's the word "decisions" that I find fault with. I ask you again: what could Gillispie do? Put in someone else? Play someone else? You play your best players, and unfortunately we had to play our best players a whole lot because of poor recruiting in the past. You just can't sub on potential injuries unless a player is noticeably hurt -- which Patterson was not.

As has been pointed out, Patterson isn't playing nearly as much as he will when he makes it to the NBA. Using your logic, the NBA wouldn't have the players to field teams because they'd all be out with stress fractures.

Will,

I've already answered this. I didn't say to play someone else. I also clearly stated that it's not the 70-80 minutes from the 2 games per week that was the problem. It's the total accumulated stress and that includes practices, actually most of the time they spend on the floor is practicing. A stress fracture is a sign that overtraining has already occurred. There is only one cure for overtraining and that is rest. If you do play guys like Crawford, Bradley, and Patterson 40 minutes a game then adjustments need to be made to their practice schedules to compensate.

[Realist]

It's also important to point out that several doctors who have experience with stress fractures have all said that it's not an "overuse" injury.

According to the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons:

"A stress fracture is an overuse injury. It occurs when muscles become fatigued and are unable to absorb added shock. Eventually, the fatigued muscle transfers the overload of stress to the bone causing a tiny crack called a stress fracture."

"Without sufficient rest between workouts or competitions, an athlete is at risk for developing a stress fracture."

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00112

I don't know who the doctors you are referring to might be but the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons categorize a stress fracture as an overuse injury.

[Will Lavender]

If you do play guys like Crawford, Bradley, and Patterson 40 minutes a game then adjustments need to be made to their practice schedules to compensate.

To do that, you would have to assume that they're going to get injured.

Your argument is flawed (in a major way) because you're looking BACKWARDS, with the knowledge of Patterson's injury on your mind. I just don't see how or why you would tinker with a guy's practice regimen on the assumption of injury. It doesn't make any sense. Using your logic, coaches all over the country are probably resting their star players like crazy, in games and in practice (and practice is as essential as the games themselves), keeing them fresh until the post-season.

Do you think that's happening? Of course not.

Heck, you should have sent an e-mail to Gillispie on Thursday warning him of what was going to happen.

[Realist]

To do that, you would have to assume that they're going to get injured.

Your argument is flawed (in a major way) because you're looking BACKWARDS, with the knowledge of Patterson's injury on your mind. I just don't see how or why you would tinker with a guy's practice regimen on the assumption of injury. It doesn't make any sense. Using your logic, coaches all over the country are probably resting their star players like crazy, in games and in practice (and practice is as essential as the games themselves), keeing them fresh until the post-season.

Do you think that's happening? Of course not.

Heck, you should have sent an e-mail to Gillispie on Thursday warning him of what was going to happen.

My argument is NOT flawed and I'm not sure why you're not getting this. You learn from your mistakes. Did Pitino learn from his mistake of not putting a man on the ball in the Duke game? Yes, he admitted as much and said he would never do that again in that situation. What Gillispie has is a big red flag that says OVERTRAINING. What he does with that is his business. If he takes a look at how he did business this season and adjusts in the future then good. If he and the rest of the staff realize that they were overtraining them they can ask themselves if they missed some other more subtle signs that they might be able to pick up on in the future. Do you not think that at some point BCG will sit down and evaluate how this year went and how well he did his job? I would think that any professional would.

There are about 130 signs of overtraining that medical professionals have found. If they gave them a blood test and found their cortisol levels elevated or their hormone profiles out of whack would that be sufficient? What about elevated resting heartrate? Would that be enough for the coaching staff to do a little introspection and look at how they've scheduled things this year?

If he realizes that guys like Crawford and Bradley are probably in the same boat as Patterson he can try to rest them more this last week or two. It might make a difference in the conference tournament.

Coaches SHOULD be resting their star players more right now if at all possible. If they can't in the games then they should at practice. They are not going to lose conditioning but most coaches are too paranoid to risk it.

[Classof93]

Will,

I've already answered this. I didn't say to play someone else. I also clearly stated that it's not the 70-80 minutes from the 2 games per week that was the problem. It's the total accumulated stress and that includes practices, actually most of the time they spend on the floor is practicing. A stress fracture is a sign that overtraining has already occurred. There is only one cure for overtraining and that is rest. If you do play guys like Crawford, Bradley, and Patterson 40 minutes a game then adjustments need to be made to their practice schedules to compensate.

The time these guys put in is nothing compared to what Patterson would do if he played in the NBA. They play nearly 3 times as many games as college does. Then they play all summer long. Coach Gillispie isn't asking for anymore than what Patterson would be doing if he were in the NBA. It was just a freak accident.

[UKcat98]

I'm no orthopedic Dr., but I have to think practicing 20 hours a week on a court with little to no cushion underneath can take its toll on players' joints after a while.

This should be investigated further, IMO.

[Realist]

The time these guys put in is nothing compared to what Patterson would do if he played in the NBA. They play nearly 3 times as many games as college does. Then they play all summer long. Coach Gillispie isn't asking for anymore than what Patterson would be doing if he were in the NBA. It was just a freak accident.

It was NOT a freak accident. It was an overuse injury.

The NBA is irrelevant. Patterson was injured this year on this year's training regimen.

[Coldstream]

It was NOT a freak accident. It was an overuse injury.

The NBA is irrelevant. Patterson was injured this year on this year's training regimen.
He was actually injured in a game. He stepped on an opponent's foot and caused his ankle to roll. An unfortunate injury that usually results in a ankle sprain.

As for the argument on Gillispie's practice regimen, I'll just cut to the chase and say that I think its hogwash. BCG's regimen is not revolutionary nor new in the coaching profession. It is simply a bad year for the team in terms of injuries, pure and simple.

[matt colvin]

He was actually injured in a game. He stepped on an opponent's foot and caused his ankle to roll. An unfortunate injury that usually results in a ankle sprain.

As for the argument on Gillispie's practice regimen, I'll just cut to the chase and say that I think its hogwash. BCG's regimen is not revolutionary nor new in the coaching profession. It is simply a bad year for the team in terms of injuries, pure and simple.

Thanks for the concise version Coldstream. Again, re-read that post. It's the truth.

If Rick didn't kill our guys, especially the unforgettables before they became unforgettable, then no one will.

[UKcat]

It was NOT a freak accident. It was an overuse injury.

The NBA is irrelevant. Patterson was injured this year on this year's training regimen.


I know a lady that has had two stress fractures in her foot since last spring. The most effort she puts out in a day's time is probably typical house-wife day to day activities. There is no overuse, stress, overwork, etc. Being that you are obviously an expert in this discussion...........what the heck caused her injuries???

I doubt that you can blame the coach, trainers, etc;:shrug1:

[Realist]

He was actually injured in a game. He stepped on an opponent's foot and caused his ankle to roll. An unfortunate injury that usually results in a ankle sprain.

As for the argument on Gillispie's practice regimen, I'll just cut to the chase and say that I think its hogwash. BCG's regimen is not revolutionary nor new in the coaching profession. It is simply a bad year for the team in terms of injuries, pure and simple.

Do you have a source on that? All I've seen is that he woke up on Tuesday with pain in his ankle.

[Coldstream]

Do you have a source on that? All I've seen is that he woke up on Tuesday with pain in his ankle.

Patterson told the TCP guys (Jeff Drummond, Matt May) that he rolled his ankle against Georgia and it was hurting since then. He thought it was an ankle sprain but x-rays revealed later that it was a fracture. As you will recall, he was wearing a boot since that game.

[BigBlue75]

According to the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons:

"A stress fracture is an overuse injury. It occurs when muscles become fatigued and are unable to absorb added shock. Eventually, the fatigued muscle transfers the overload of stress to the bone causing a tiny crack called a stress fracture."

"Without sufficient rest between workouts or competitions, an athlete is at risk for developing a stress fracture."

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00112

I don't know who the doctors you are referring to might be but the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons categorize a stress fracture as an overuse injury.

Okay, having re-read the article I was pointing out the doctors did said it was an overuse type of injury, but they also said the amount of playing time Patterson was getting wasn't enough to cause it. They said it was more likely caused by the day to day pounding the foot area takes.

[poodoo]

Folks, I'm NOT getting into any argument, and I have no expertise on the matter. FWIW, again, I do not blame Coach Gillispie for the injury.

However, the truth needs to be clarified a bit. As I said, yes, Patrick had trouble with his ankles in high school (and I would merely assume that could be a contributing factor). Also, yes, he did reportedly hurt his ankle against Georgia. In addition, though, I heard UK athletic department representative Scott Stricklin say on the radio that the stress fracture did NOT occur with one incident, but had, instead, developed over time. At least that was evidently the truth as Mr. Stricklin believed it to be. I KNOW that. Beyond that, I do not know. I'm just sharing. Surely we all want to know the truth. :)

By the way, even the term "overuse" does not necessarily mean that Coach is at all responsible, anyway. The athletes can work out on their own anytime at the Craft Center, while coaches must actually adhere to the twenty-hour limit. FWIW, I also heard Coach Gillispie say on the radio that he would basically stick to that limitation during the Christmas break, having the usual, rather short practices at full speed, rather than having a lot of additional practice time as a former coach did while at UK (and now down the road from UK).

I'm just sharing those two things I heard with my own ears, nothing more than that. Again, I am not wanting to be any part of any argument. Actually, the two things I shared may now have both "sides" mad at me. :icon_mrgreen: The truth does usually lie somewhere in the middle, though, promise, and I still happen to wish Coach had rested his players more the morning of the Gardner-Webb game, FWIW, although it was HIS decision to make. :icon_biggrin: Maybe THAT morning's practice was the worst wear on Patrick's joint ;) --just joking, promise! :icon_mrgreen:

Too, I don't mean to make light of the situation at all, although I am trying to lighten the mood a bit. Most of all, may we all be thankful that the precautionary x-ray was taken. THAT is what really matters for Patrick's health and future. Also, may the coaches and athletic department look into any possible concerns, just to be cautious, and I feel confident that will happen. I'm out of here. :)

GO CATS! BEAT THOSE GAMECOCKS!

[bluescat]

He was actually injured in a game. He stepped on an opponent's foot and caused his ankle to roll. An unfortunate injury that usually results in a ankle sprain.

As for the argument on Gillispie's practice regimen, I'll just cut to the chase and say that I think its hogwash. BCG's regimen is not revolutionary nor new in the coaching profession. It is simply a bad year for the team in terms of injuries, pure and simple.

Coldstream, I'm down with you on this one, man. We could argue this one until the cows come home and not sort it out. It's worked for Coach at his other stops and I believe it will work here, as well.

[UKcat]

Folks, I'm NOT getting into any argument, and I have no expertise on the matter. FWIW, again, I do not blame Coach Gillispie for the injury.

However, the truth needs to be clarified a bit. As I said, yes, Patrick had trouble with his ankles in high school (and I would merely assume that could be a contributing factor). Also, yes, he did reportedly hurt his ankle against Georgia. In addition, though, I heard UK athletic department representative Scott Stricklin say on the radio that the stress fracture did NOT occur with one incident, but had, instead, developed over time. At least that was evidently the truth as Mr. Stricklin believed it to be. I KNOW that. Beyond that, I do not know. I'm just sharing. Surely we all want to know the truth. :)

By the way, even the term "overuse" does not necessarily mean that Coach is at all responsible, anyway. The athletes can work out on their own anytime at the Craft Center, while coaches must actually adhere to the twenty-hour limit. FWIW, I also heard Coach Gillispie say on the radio that he would basically stick to that limitation during the Christmas break, having the usual, rather short practices at full speed, rather than having a lot of additional practice time as a former coach did while at UK (and now down the road from UK).

I'm just sharing those two things I heard with my own ears, nothing more than that. Again, I am not wanting to be any part of any argument. Actually, the two things I shared may now have both "sides" mad at me. :icon_mrgreen: The truth does usually lie somewhere in the middle, though, promise, and I still happen to wish Coach had rested his players more the morning of the Gardner-Webb game, FWIW, although it was HIS decision to make. :icon_biggrin: Maybe THAT morning's practice was the worst wear on Patrick's joint ;) --just joking, promise! :icon_mrgreen:

Too, I don't mean to make light of the situation at all, although I am trying to lighten the mood a bit. Most of all, may we all be thankful that the precautionary x-ray was taken. THAT is what really matters for Patrick's health and future. Also, may the coaches and athletic department look into any possible concerns, just to be cautious, and I feel confident that will happen. I'm out of here. :)

GO CATS! BEAT THOSE GAMECOCKS!

As usual, Poodoo, you are the voice of reason in this crazy world. Thanks for your "sharing".:icon_mrgreen:

[Will Lavender]

My argument is NOT flawed and I'm not sure why you're not getting this.

I'm not getting it because it's nonsense.

[UKBOO]

I'm not getting it because it's nonsense.

I agree. It doesn't. As I have said numerous times, ankles are fractured in rolls. Simple physics would show that if it were stress, it would be a weaker foot bone to give instead of a much more sturdy ankle. The term "stress" has been applied where it does not belong, and has been taken in the literal context, again, where it does not belong.

People really need to give up the over practicing thing. For one thing, the NCAA only allows 20 hours of practice a week and a mandatory day off. I believe team meetings must be included in that 20 hour limit. That isn't very big load.

[BigBlue75]

Will,

I've already answered this. I didn't say to play someone else. I also clearly stated that it's not the 70-80 minutes from the 2 games per week that was the problem. It's the total accumulated stress and that includes practices, actually most of the time they spend on the floor is practicing. A stress fracture is a sign that overtraining has already occurred. There is only one cure for overtraining and that is rest. If you do play guys like Crawford, Bradley, and Patterson 40 minutes a game then adjustments need to be made to their practice schedules to compensate.

Realist, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you a couple of questions, and I AM NOT trying to goad you into an argument.
(1) How do you know for certain "overtraining" has occured? Are you basing that solely on the nature of Patterson's injury? (2) Exactly what changes would you make to Coach G's training regimen that would prevent this? What exactly would you change without knowing what goes on in practice to begin with?
Whether you intend to or not, your comments are coming across as if you think Coach G is intentionally doing this with the knowledge it's going to cause injury.

[Realist]

I'm not getting it because it's nonsense.

I can think of a lot of reasons you're not getting it but I'm trying to keep this conversation civil.

I did NOT say to tinker with practice on the assumption of injury. Go back and read what I said before you jump to conclusions. I said to tinker with practice on the assumption of OVERTRAINING. Overtraining can hurt a team even if nobody gets injured. By this team in the season almost all college basketball teams are overtrained. The teams with better talent and deeper benches are usually in a little better shape because they can rest their guys more. The biggest challenge right now is going in to the post season with fairly fresh legs. KY will have trouble because they'll have to scratch and claw to even get in to the NCAA tournament. That makes it even more important to pay attention to the physical condition of your players.

You can question whether a stress fracture is a sign of overtraining or not but most people with an understanding of exercise physiology know that overtraining comes first. It's a clear cut sign of too much exercise. You don't have a stress fracture and THEN later begin to overtrain. There are lots of other signs of overtraining which I mentioned previously. If you choose to argue that a stress fracture is not a sign of overtraining that is fine but do you typically make decisions based on long odds? By that I mean that if 9 out of 10 times a implies b but 1 out of 10 it does not you would choose the latter? I've done a little more reading since this issue came up and there are a few cases where stress fractures are not caused by overuse but in the majority of cases they are. I think it would be prudent to assume overtraining and look for signs of it in the rest of the players.

If the UK medical staff did a complete physical battery on the whole team and found several of them had elevated cortisol levels, a higher testosterone to cortisol ratio, or any of the other physical signs of overtraining should the coaching staff a) use that information to their best advantage for the remainder of this season and b) use that information when planning for next season? Overtraining is not an absolute black and white phenomenon, it's a continuum. The further along on the continuum the more it's a detriment to your performance.

While looking for information on stress fractures I found an interesting bit of information on plantar fasciitis: Plantar fasciitis can occur from
overtraining, contact with hard or irregular surfaces while running, and
from structural or biomechanical abnormalities affecting the foot and leg.
In general, both high-arched feet and pronated feet are prone to this
injury. Overtraining is listed as one of the causes. Is it the reason for Joe Crawford's injury? I don't know, but it should at least be considered.
Source: http://www.selfsource.com/footflex/plantar.html

[Realist]

I agree. It doesn't. As I have said numerous times, ankles are fractured in rolls. Simple physics would show that if it were stress, it would be a weaker foot bone to give instead of a much more sturdy ankle. The term "stress" has been applied where it does not belong, and has been taken in the literal context, again, where it does not belong.

People really need to give up the over practicing thing. For one thing, the NCAA only allows 20 hours of practice a week and a mandatory day off. I believe team meetings must be included in that 20 hour limit. That isn't very big load.

Stress fractures don't occur because of rolls. Look it up.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00379

20 hours a week divided by 6 days = 3.33 hours per day. That's plenty of time to run anyone into the ground and have a team meeting or two. It all depends on the intensity.

[UKBOO]

Stress fractures don't occur because of rolls. Look it up.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00379

20 hours a week divided by 6 days = 3.33 hours per day. That's plenty of time to run anyone into the ground and have a team meeting or two. It all depends on the intensity.

And just because someone used the term "stress" you are running with it. He rolled it. It is a fracture, not a stress fracture. HE said he rolled it.

BTW, I got heal spurs from wearing the wrong shoes on a hard surface too long. There are lots of ways to get them. Joe has moved very well, so whatever the cause, they are managing it and preventing further injury quite well.

[dwarfdorin]

People are rediculous. (Not you, the people that question Gillispie as a person.) Gillispie is a GREAT human being. Did you guys see him at the DanceBlue marathon? That was one of the greatest things I've ever seen from a UK coach. And how about how he called in to that radio show and paid the way for a complete stranger to travel states away to go to her Dad's funeral just out of the kindness of his heart.

You beat me to saying it, I couldn't agree more. And if anyone has noticed there haven't been that many reports from the media about those things.

:widcat::widcat: Go CATS!!!

[Realist]

Realist, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you a couple of questions, and I AM NOT trying to goad you into an argument.
(1) How do you know for certain "overtraining" has occured? Are you basing that solely on the nature of Patterson's injury? (2) Exactly what changes would you make to Coach G's training regimen that would prevent this? What exactly would you change without knowing what goes on in practice to begin with?
Whether you intend to or not, your comments are coming across as if you think Coach G is intentionally doing this with the knowledge it's going to cause injury.

And I will try to answer with all due respect...........

1. How do you know for certain "overtraining" has occured? Are you basing that solely on the nature of Patterson's injury?

You don't know for sure at a 100% level. But, Patterson's injury is a big warning flag. You'll note that I said nothing about Meeks. A stress fracture will typically occur after the overtraining. First comes overtraining, then comes the stress fracture. Not in all cases as I've recently learned but in the majority and that's the way I'd bet my money. Crawford's injury is another sign. While researching stress fractures I found that overtraining is also a factor (not the only one) in plantar fasciitis.

I'm also basing my view on what I see on the floor. There are subtle signs. The Mississippi game comes to mind. A great first half, actually the best half I've seen and then an almost total collapse in the second. Miss. had less talent given the high school recruiting rankings (I know, an unreliable metric but one of the only ones we have) with nary a 4 or 5 star recruit compared to UK. There top players played just about the same minutes as UK's, you can check the box scores, so they were running a fairly shallow bench as well. They were digging themselves out of a hole which usually leads to exhaustion yet they looked fresher. Their freshman point guard was a step faster than anyone on the floor. Kentucky was standing around and not reacting to rebounds, a sign of tired legs. The were front rimming some shots, another sign. They just looked gassed.

(2) Exactly what changes would you make to Coach G's training regimen that would prevent this? What exactly would you change without knowing what goes on in practice to begin with?

The idea of going hard every practice and game day practices would be a start. Of course I don't know what goes on specifically but when part of your reputation is based on how hard you practice you can make a reasonable assumption. There are other steps the medical staff could take. Monitoring their heart rates, blood tests for cortisol and cortisol/testosterone ratios. The Olympic training staff does this type thing regularly. UK has the budget and the resources.

I can tell you one anecdotal story that I had experience with. Years ago I was an assistant coach at a high school. Our head coach was quite excitable and had a tendency to work the players into the ground. In February we had lost a couple of close games and he was ranting about how "sorry" the players were. In my estimation we had as good of a group of young men as you could find and they were exhausted. I finally convinced him to give them a couple of days off. He didn't want to but I told them that if they were as sorry as he thought it wouldn't make any difference but if I was right they'd snap back. We brought them in after 2 days off and had 3 boys dunk the ball for the first times in their life. Two days later we beat our arch rival and shouldn't have given their talent level. He was convinced and we tried to rest them as much as possible which earned us a couple more wins over better teams.

"Whether you intend to or not, your comments are coming across as if you think Coach G is intentionally doing this with the knowledge it's going to cause injury."

That is NOT my intention. I don't think Coach G is trying to cause injury. I just think that most coaches don't have a great understanding of the phenomenon, especially if they haven't experienced it themselves. Part of his success in turning programs around is being tough and instilling that attitude in his players. Being tough is a double edged sword though and my whole argument is that what I perceive to be an obvious sign COULD be used to evaluate how things are being done, not only this season but next.

He has eased up some due to fatigue. IMHO he should consider being very judicious in terms of intensity these last 2 weeks and let them save it for the games. They've got the mental toughness, if they can get their legs back to a degree they might surprise some people.

[Realist]

And just because someone used the term "stress" you are running with it. He rolled it. It is a fracture, not a stress fracture. HE said he rolled it.

BTW, I got heal spurs from wearing the wrong shoes on a hard surface too long. There are lots of ways to get them. Joe has moved very well, so whatever the cause, they are managing it and preventing further injury quite well.

The stress fracture is on the inside of the ankle. When you roll it the injury is on the outside.

[UKBOO]

The stress fracture is on the inside of the ankle. When you roll it the injury is on the outside.

Nope.

My wife rolled hers by stepping on the side of a sidewalk. Sprain on the outside, fracture on the inside.

[Will Lavender]

You can question whether a stress fracture is a sign of overtraining or not but most people with an understanding of exercise physiology know that overtraining comes first.

I agree that it's possibly a symptom of overtraining. I admitted that in another thread. I don't know for sure, as I try to not make definite statements about things I know nothing about. But I concede that it's possible.

The point I personally am disagreeing with you on is the fact that Gillispie could have or should have done something about it. I just don't see how a coach changes what he does based on the possibility of injury or overtraining -- especially when he has no other options. That's...well, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

And it doesn't matter whether Gillispie tinkered with anything due to possible injury or possible overtraining. It's the same thing -- he's still making changes based on ASSUMPTION, and there's no coach in the world who is going to change what he does based on something that might possibly happen.

My last post on the thread.

[Realist]

I agree that it's possibly a symptom of overtraining. I admitted that in another thread. I don't know for sure, as I try to not make definite statements about things I know nothing about. But I concede that it's possible.

The point I personally am disagreeing with you on is the fact that Gillispie could have or should have done something about it. I just don't see how a coach changes what he does based on the possibility of injury or overtraining -- especially when he has no other options. That's...well, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

And it doesn't matter whether Gillispie tinkered with anything due to possible injury or possible overtraining. It's the same thing -- he's still making changes based on ASSUMPTION, and there's no coach in the world who is going to change what he does based on something that might possibly happen.

My last post on the thread.

You can not find a single post I've made where I said he could have done something about it. Not ONE. I said clearly that he could take the information he NOW has and make changes in the present or in the future.

My last post as well.

[Will Lavender]

You can not find a single post I've made where I said he could have done something about it. Not ONE. I said clearly that he could take the information he NOW has and make changes in the present or in the future.

Oh. Well, I guess I was misunderstanding you.

Still, there's no way Gillispie changes what he does because of Patterson, nor should he. It's still a change based on a possibility, on an assumption.

HOWEVER, we're going to have more numbers next year, and you would hope that Patterson won't have to go as many minutes as he did this season.

My last last post on the thread.

[UKcat]

Give up Will. You may be dealing with someone who is still looking for reasons to discredit our coach. I wonder if he writes for the LHL???:icon_rolleyes:

[RCS]

While looking for information on stress fractures I found an interesting bit of information on plantar fasciitis: Plantar fasciitis can occur from
overtraining, contact with hard or irregular surfaces while running, and
from structural or biomechanical abnormalities affecting the foot and leg.
In general, both high-arched feet and pronated feet are prone to this
injury. Overtraining is listed as one of the causes. Is it the reason for Joe Crawford's injury? I don't know, but it should at least be considered.
Source: http://www.selfsource.com/footflex/plantar.html
Joe didn't even train most of the early part of the season since he was recovering from knee surgery. He was woefully out of shape the beginning of the year. Does that sound like someone over trained? The problem is that every individual is different. Pat ended up with a break but that doesn't mean it is a flawed system since there are a ton of people doing similar or more work and are fine. It happened. Move on.

[poodoo]

"Whether you intend to or not, your comments are coming across as if you think Coach G is intentionally doing this with the knowledge it's going to cause injury."

That is NOT my intention. I don't think Coach G is trying to cause injury. I just think that most coaches don't have a great understanding of the phenomenon, especially if they haven't experienced it themselves. Part of his success in turning programs around is being tough and instilling that attitude in his players. Being tough is a double edged sword though and my whole argument is that what I perceive to be an obvious sign COULD be used to evaluate how things are being done, not only this season but next.

He has eased up some due to fatigue. IMHO he should consider being very judicious in terms of intensity these last 2 weeks and let them save it for the games. They've got the mental toughness, if they can get their legs back to a degree they might surprise some people. QUOTE by Realist
**********

Well, at least things seem to have settled down here a bit. :icon_biggrin: Too, Realist, I don't know how much folks paid attention to your sharing your personal experience as a player, but I enjoyed reading that and can understand how that experience might thus be influencing your posting on this topic. Also, I naturally prefer that having possibly influenced your posting, rather than mere anti-Gillispie sentiment, which had been suspected by some.:icon_biggrin:

I'm actually responding because of your final paragraph here, though. I think you make a valid point here, especially with the loss of Patterson and general lack of depth and the upcoming SEC Tourney, which COULD involve up to four staright days of playing games. As the players do indeed have the mental toughness now and are obviously well-conditioned, at least having shorter practices, which would help in regard to fresh legs, makes sense to me. That's merely looking toward the future, rather than complaining about the past, and that just sets better with me.

I know Coach doesn't believe in practicing not at full-speed. Yet, SHORTER actual practices and spending the rest of time time looking at film, shooting free throws, etc. would not violate his philosophy. Guess what! I really suspect Coach has already thought of such. I HOPE I'm right. :) GO CATS! BEAT THOSE GAMECOCKS!