Talent level

[wildcatcrazy]

No bashing here--just an observation--and I'm aware we gave a great effort (and wol d have lost four less games if we had played with that effort all year.0

That said, the talent level between the two programs was immense. IMO, only Rondo and Morris could have suited up and gotten any serious minutes for UCONN.

Again, not bashing, but it just seems to me that the talent level--when held up to the light of an elite program like UConn--is worlds apart--and I don't see it getting any better anytime soon with this staff.

Said another way, we can send our kids into the weight room every day for the summer, have the ALL come back with a great attitude and give great effort all year--and we still won't be good enough to regularly beat teams like NC, Duke, UConn and a few others. I may have a great attitude and put in maximum effort but God only gave me a certain amount of talent.

More than just attitude and effort has to change IMO.

[T75]

It's a matter of opinion I reckon, but I've thought all season long that our talent was much better than the poor showings and losses would indicate. I felt the Cats seldom played hard with caring, enthusiam and energy. When the players themselves were admitting late in the season that they hadn't been giving their all, it made me feel even stronger than ever that we could have been a 31-4 or so team if the attitudes and efforts had been there. Our talent isn't that bad and we weren't dependent on any freshmen. Just another one of those times when Tubby and his team couldn't come together.

Remember how bad the '98 team looked until mid-Jan when they finally got ittogether in mid-January? We looked at guys like Jeff Sheppard who got red-shirted one season because he wasn't good enough to get playing time, Padgett, et al, and felt we had no talent And Jeff ended up being the MVP of the final four. I don't think we should measure our talent strictly by who makes it into the NBA---different game.

I think this tournament simply confirmed that there was no way UK should have lost to Iowa,IU, Kansas, Vandy, S.C., Tenn---our talent was better than any of those teams--on the few occasions that our guys really came to play. What the games show is that we are still sadlyin need ofa big strong PF, but other than that recruiting failure, we're allmost as good as any when we decide to be.

Tubby was never able to generate commitment and desire among this group, plain and simple. And there had been so much talk of how Tubby recruited his kind of people after that disastrous season of Team Turmoil. I think this was just TTII to a large extent.

[Will Lavender]

This team was slow and it couldn't jump.

Oh: and it was short.

If those three things have to do with "talent," I guess you're right. I really don't know if they do or not.

[wildcatcrazy]

Will,

We rarelly disagree but slow and short sounds like a lack of basketball talent to me (or a description of me!:))

Several times, Bobby Perry played perfect defense on Rudy Gay--and it didn't make any difference to Gay---he just shot or rebounded over him--reminded me of the way Ron Mercer used to come off that curl and jump over everyone for that 12 foot jumper.

We don't have those kinds of players to any large degree. I continue to maintain that we have only four (4) HIGH D-1 talents on the team--and all are in the sophomore class--and two were no shows yesterday.

Before reading that wrong, I'd take Sparks on my team any day but--from a pure raw talent point of view--he would be lacking---but makes more than up for it in heart--much like Chris Lofton in my opinion. (There is always room for a shooter.)

[Will Lavender]

wildcatcrazy wrote: Will,

We rarelly disagree but slow and short sounds like a lack of basketball talent to me (or a description of me!:))

Several times, Bobby Perry played perfect defense on Rudy Gay--and it didn't make any difference to Gay---he just shot or rebounded over him--reminded me of the way Ron Mercer used to come off that curl and jump over everyone for that 12 foot jumper.

We don't have those kinds of players to any large degree. I continue to maintain that we have only four (4) HIGH D-1 talents on the team--and all are in the sophomore class--and two were no shows yesterday.

Before reading that wrong, I'd take Sparks on my team any day but--from a pure raw talent point of view--he would be lacking---but makes more than up for it in heart--much like Chris Lofton in my opinion. (There is always room for a shooter.)

Yeah. You're right.

Rudy Gay, Denham Brown, and Marcus Williams were the difference yesterday. (Astoundingly we held our own in the post, and it pleases me to no end that Perry and Morris did a shut-down job on Josh Boone and Hilton Armstrong.)

They just, as you say, rose up over our guys and made shots. (For the record, though, there's not many people Rudy Gay couldn't rise over.)

And Williams showed Rondo one more reason why he should stay: brute strength. There was no question why he got the best of Rajon yesterday: he'd spent a lot more time in the weight room.

It was our problem from the outset: lack of length, lack of footspeed, lack of athleticism. I guess those are talent issues. I think Perry Stevenson and Tyler Smith go a long way toward correcting them. I also think we need to get guys back in their natural positions: Joe needs to settle in at the 2; Bobby needs to get back out on the wing.

It's interesting that Tubby has been blasted for a long time for not recruiting basketball players, but rather recruiting brutes who were defensive minded. This year we sucked on defense, but turned into, in the last month of the season, a decent offensive team.

We need to go back to the old way: we need athletes in here. We need guys who can play the game, yes, but we also need that raw, unpolished talent that always rises to the top in March.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: This team was slow and it couldn't jump.

Oh: and it was short.

If those three things have to do with "talent," I guess you're right. I really don't know if they do or not.

Short! In addition to Morris, this team has three seven footers. Now why wouldn't they play........? Lack of talent, that might be the answer.

Slow? Rondo, Crawford, Bradley, Moss, Perry, Sims....just who are the slow players? IMO, in Rondo, Sparks, Crawford, Morris, Bradley, and possibly Sims, six players that are division I caliber players. After that, there is a huge drop off. Most significantly, we had woefully inadequate frontline players.

Lack of talent is the single biggest problem this team has. I don't think size or speed is the issue.

[Guyinthe11thRow]

wildcatcrazy wrote: That said, the talent level between the two programs was immense. IMO, only Rondo and Morris could have suited up and gotten any serious minutes for UCONN.

More than just attitude and effort has to change IMO.

I think these two statements get to the root of UK's problems. It WAS obvious that UConn had better, more talented players in yesterday's game - UK's effort, preparation, and heart kept them in the game. When he game mattered, however, talent won out and UConn (Hilton Armstrong, in specific) outhustled UK and got three key consecutive offensive rebounds that won the game for UConn. And based on this season, I agree that only Rondo and Morris could have suited up and gotten serious minutes for UConn.

However, based on how they played yesterday, UConn would have LOVED to have Patrick Sparks or Bobby Perry, I'm sure.

And one other thing - I think that had players such as Ramel Bradley and Joe Crawford been part of the UConn program from the beginning of their collegiate careers, they would have progressed to a point that by their sophomore year NCAA tournament, they would have not only suited up and gotten serious minutes for UConn, they also would have been significant contributors. That, in my opinion, is a commentary on UK's coaching.

I agree that more than just attitude and effort have to change.

Oh, this is the first time UK has failed to reach the Sweet Sixteen in 2 out of 3 NCAA appearances since the 1981 and 1982 seasons. Yet another in the string of "worst since..." superlatives this team has brought to UK basketball. And Sweet Sixteens are NOT how UK fans measure their team's success - Final Fours and NCAA titles are.

And now we have tied the record for most consecutive non-Final Four seasons, last set when we were decimated by probation.

[Will Lavender]

Re: size. Of course I'm talking about the guys who play. Citing the seven footers as an example for anything, good or bad, is a bit off the point considering those guys didn't really affect the outcome of too many games this year.

Re: foot speed. The team was slow; one of the slowest, most lethargic teams I've seen at UK. Perry, Sparks, Moss, Thomas, Sims, Obzut, Stockton, Morris, Alleyne: nine guys who got minutes for this team, and none of them has much lateral quickness.

And I think we are talking about talent here. Well, except for the size thing. As wildcatcrazy says, I think speed and strength and agility and athleticism are, probably, talent issues.

I think we had skill. Sparks was skilled. Perry is pretty skilled. Morris is skilled offensively. Ravi was a skilled situational shooter. But we didn't have those God-given abilities that our opponents had yesterday, that ability to take games over with blunt power and athleticism.

Buck Naked wrote: Will Lavender wrote: This team was slow and it couldn't jump.

Oh: and it was short.

If those three things have to do with "talent," I guess you're right. I really don't know if they do or not.

Short! In addition to Morris, this team has three seven footers. Now why wouldn't they play........? Lack of talent, that might be the answer.

Slow? Rondo, Crawford, Bradley, Moss, Perry, Sims....just who are the slow players? IMO, in Rondo, Sparks, Crawford, Morris, Bradley, and possibly Sims, six players that are division I caliber players. After that, there is a huge drop off. Most significantly, we had woefully inadequate frontline players.

Lack of talent is the single biggest problem this team has. I don't think size or speed is the issue.

[NC Cat]

wildcatcrazy wrote: No bashing here--just an observation--and I'm aware we gave a great effort (and wol d have lost four less games if we had played with that effort all year.0

That said, the talent level between the two programs was immense. To be fair, the difference in talent level between UCONN andANY teamin college basketball is immense. They're at one of those peaks, like where we were in 1996, that only come around once in a long while. UNC was there last year, andUCONN is there now. Next year, however, they will be a far different team and we may well be more talented next year than they are. Between graduation and early entry into the NBA, they will lose a TONof the talent off that team.

[NotFrank]

NC Cat wrote: wildcatcrazy wrote: No bashing here--just an observation--and I'm aware we gave a great effort (and wol d have lost four less games if we had played with that effort all year.0

That said, the talent level between the two programs was immense. To be fair, the difference in talent level between UCONN andANY teamin college basketball is immense. They're at one of those peaks, like where we were in 1996, that only come around once in a long while. UNC was there last year, andUCONN is there now. Next year, however, they will be a far different team and we may well be more talented next year than they are. Between graduation and early entry into the NBA, they will lose a TONof the talent off that team.
Exactly! They lose Armstrong, Brown, Andersen, and Nelson for sure. They likely lose Gay, Williams, and maybe Boone. But hey, they get AJ Price back from his "Rod Council" lapse in judgment moment. UNC lost as much, probably more, and did okay this year, so we shall see. UNC did it in a weak ACC while UCONN will have to do it in the loaded Big East.

[wildcatcrazy]

NCCat,

While I don't disagree, our talent level IMO is not in the top 15 programs in the county--which is inexcusable IMO.

We have to get better players--period. We've got way too many projects--and some are juniors.

[NotFrank]

Welose Sparks, Moss, Stockton, LeMaster, Woo, and IMO RR. IfWoo/RR stay, someone else has to transfer or someone has to prep/not qualify.We bring in Meeks/Jasper/Stevenson/Porter. They are all more talented than what we lose, with the exception of RR. He's got more of a pro game anyway.Is it the top five class we expect, no, but Meeks and Jasper are top notch guards. I know nothing about Perry/Porter except what we read.If we could have signed another stud wing or PF, which may happen, then the talent level will be on par with what we thought we were getting with the 04 class.

[catfando]

I disagree, I think our talent level is good. Bradley, Rondo, Morris, Crawford, Carter, Sims, Perry (a good 6th man level), Sparks, Moss (a very servicable hustler). The problem is that

1. Tubby just doesn't do a good job of developing players.

2. We are poorly conditioned.

3. We need someone that can coach offense. We don't run a good offensive set. We have poor spacing, don't set good screens and picks, don't move well without the ball, dribble too much and don't pass enough.

4. We have recruited players not suited to Tubby's system. These guys are not suited (most of them) to a half court game. Can't make a dog meow and use a litter box.

With that being said, I am hoping that either one of two things will happen.



1. Tubby has recognized these problems and will make the proper changes.


or


2. Tubby will find another team to coach.

[wildcatcrazy]

Catfando,

You and I both know that Coach Smith isn't going anywhere.

I will say that I can't believe anyone can watch the UConn game and think we have the talent to compete with teams like that night in and night out--not even close IMO and it was on display that game.

That said, I don't disagree with any of your other points. LOTS of problems to fix here in the off season. Will Coach Smith talk about it or be agressive in making changes in staff, recruiting, style---or none of the above.

I heard a quote once that said something like "The height of stupidity is to continue to do the same thing--and expect different results." Coach Smith isn't stupid.

[BigblueDrew]

Why do people think we are poorly conditioned.I saw little evidence of it during the season. Some of our late game breakdowns had MUCH more to do with basketball IQ than fatigue. As for Tubby not developing players I'm not so sure about that. The implication is that kids are not any better when they leave here than when they came, I think that assertion is ridiculous. Chuck Hayes, Daniels, Prince,Bogans, Fitch,I could go on and on, all "developed" as players at UK. What some expect(including Tubby sometimes it seems to me) is for the coach to turn a sows ear into a silk purse. That is the main problem at UK IMO. Tubby rectuits entirely too many borderline Major college ball players, he also doesn't seem to place a premium on quickness and atheleticism. I AM NOT saying Tubby doesn't ever recruit good players, he just doesn't do it often enough to maintain the performance standards at a place like Kentucky. I think there is some ego involved here on his part, I believe that Tubby thinks he is a good enough coach and teacher that he can win with mediocre talent with a little blue chipper thown in from time to time. I get the impression that Tubby seems to think elite players are a bit of a headache and hard to coach(I'm sure he's right) and if he can win with a little less gifted player without the ego baggage so much the better. He has had SOME success with this strategy because he is a very skilled coach, but it has finally caught up with him. He must either abandon his recruiting strategy or he will fail at UK>

[catfando]

Drew, it is readily apparent that we are poorly conditioned. That is why he fired the strength and conditioning coach. And No he doesn't develope players to the point that he gets the most out of them. Sparks has gone from shooting in the mid 90's FT percentage to the mid 70's. Why is that. Morris, Rondo, Crawford, Bradley were all highly recruited players, as was Carter. Yet none are at the level that they would be under Roy Williams, Coach K, Calhoun, even Pitino. Why is that? We are oozing with atheletic talent from these players, so I don't understand why anyone could say we don't recruit athletes. The problem lies in Tubby's system and style of play. He doesn't play and imlplement a style or system that plays to their strengths. These players are not cut out for a half-court game. Players like WVU has are. You see the difference? Tubby is a good coach. Just not a great coach IMO. And he could become a great coach if he would learn how to recognize the talent that he has and then implement a sytem, ie.. good strength and conditioning program, agility drills, good one on one instrruction, proper offensive system (because no matter who you have, you will always have to run a half court set at times in games). And for god's sake, give up this stupid ball line defense. Teach good defensive positioning and help side defense.

Now, I don't like what Pitino did. Leaving UK and then taking the UL job. But the man is one heck of a coach. And always gets the most out of his talent. He lost his best player to injury this year, and due to losing most of his players last year, struggled terribly this year. But he will be loaded for bear next year. And we, well we need a solid PF, but we have some really good guards coming in next year. Same problem for the last 3 years. Lack of recruiting proper positions. Tubby had a good coach to learn from in Pitino. But instead, he chooses J. D. Barnett's system and style of play to implement. We can all hate Pitino for the jack leg that he is. But he is a great basketball mind. And an elite coach, no matter how big of a jack_ _ _ he is. I just want to see UK back where it belongs. Elite and feared by those that face us. Not just another game on the schedule.

[Will Lavender]

catfando wrote: Now, I don't like what Pitino did. Leaving UK and then taking the UL job. But the man is one heck of a coach. And always gets the most out of his talent. He lost his best player to injury this year, and due to losing most of his players last year, struggled terribly this year. But he will be loaded for bear next year.

Sounds like a lame excuse to me. (And BTW, Pitino had Padgett, who you refer to as his "best player," for 3/4 of the season. Not sure what your point is there.)

How about this:

Pitino frigging sucked this year. He DIDN'T get "the most out of his talent." How about that?

And Tubby sucked too. Just a little bit less.

I don't understand how Pitino gets a pass, he gets an excuse laid on his pathetic performance, but Tubby's poor year is due to a lack of recruiting, a lack of conditioning, his refusal to implement the proper system.

The Pitino love never ceases to amaze me. Even when the man trips up, some Kentucky fans will find a reason to excuse the trip.

But when Tubby does the same? He's raked across the coals.

How's that?

[audacious1]

It's my opinion that the much bigger issue is recruiting, and far less Tubby's player development.

Many have said our offense is weak but our defense was strong and I'd have to say that was only the case in a handful of games this season. Watching our last game, we were putting points on the board, but giving up too many baskets (some layups) on their end.

[catfando]

Pitino has accomplished more in his career than Tubby has. Period. He gives a reason to believe in him. Tubby doesn't. Tubby puts the same pathetic product on the floor year after year. How many Championships has Tubby won with his own talent ?......Case Closed.

[Will Lavender]

catfando wrote: Pitino has accomplished more in his career than Tubby has. Period. He gives a reason to believe in him. Tubby doesn't. Tubby puts the same pathetic product on the floor year after year. How many Championships has Tubby won with his own talent ?......Case Closed.
Completely debatable.

As I see it, Pitino has two NITs under his belt at Louisville. (The first was understandable, considering that team. The second is a byproduct of, yes, poor recruiting and poor scheduling. That lies at Pitino's feet.) He has a first round NCAA knock-out. He has a second round NCAA knock-out. And he has a Final Four.

During this same time, Tubby has had a Sweet 16, two Elite 8s, and two second round knock-outs.

If we're looking at the average performance in the post-season (which I'm sure you'll agree is completely contingent on the development of talent, the style you play, and the way you recruit), then who has put the more "pathetic product" on the floor?

Or can we be ultimately fair and say that NEITHER has really consistently put a "pathetic product" on the floor, and that both are pretty good coaches who have had poor years?

Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle? Why all this either/or stuff: either you're greatness personified or you're a total dud and should "move on"?

That's sloppy thinking, IMO.

[KY Blue in Carolina]

catfando wrote: Pitino has accomplished more in his career than Tubby has. Period. He gives a reason to believe in him. Tubby doesn't. Tubby puts the same pathetic product on the floor year after year. How many Championships has Tubby won with his own talent ?......Case Closed.

Hmmmm.... I seem to be posting this a lot lately......

Emphatically stating an opinion.... does not make it fact.

[catfando]

agreed..........good rebuttle.

[graham51]

Two points in this debate, T75 said "we weren't dependent on any freshmen" actually we had no freshmen to depend on, unlike a lot of other teams.

When Morris fouled out there were three (3) seven footers sitting on the bench and who went in.

So I agree this team has an overall lack of D1 talent.

[NC Cat]

wildcatcrazy wrote: NCCat,

While I don't disagree, our talent level IMO is not in the top 15 programs in the county--which is inexcusable IMO.

We have to get better players--period. We've got way too many projects--and some are juniors.
I totally agree we're a bit light on talent at this point. I wasjust pointing out that, to be fair, holding any program to a standard onpar with UCONN's talent level this year is unrealistic. They are friggin' loaded!

[wildcatcrazy]

Agreed--as we were in 96' and need to be again. I don't see it happening.

[poodoo]

NC Cat wrote: wildcatcrazy wrote: NCCat,

While I don't disagree, our talent level IMO is not in the top 15 programs in the county--which is inexcusable IMO.

We have to get better players--period. We've got way too many projects--and some are juniors.
I totally agree we're a bit light on talent at this point. I wasjust pointing out that, to be fair, holding any program to a standard onpar with UCONN's talent level this year is unrealistic. They are friggin' loaded!


I agree, NC Cat. I read UCONN's team has four projected first-round picks and two projected second-round picks. That's potentially SIX future NBA players. Kentucky had SEVEN on its '96 team.

Also, so much credit is given to Coach Pitino for the run we made in those years, and much of it is fairly given to him. Another part of the story, though, is that the '96 team was LOADED. Pitino, before he started flirting with the NBA, was a great recruiter. Players loved his style at that time, and he got the players to come here. It was fun while it lasted. Unfortunately, Tubby has suffered with the fan base because of the almost SUPERNATURAL level of talent UK had in '96 (and '97).Too, yes, UCONN's talent this year approaches that of our '96 team, and that type of talentlevel israrely assembled.

Regardless, Tubby is going to have to improve in recruiting, specifically at the forward positions.