Tubby's system

[gstan]

I haven't heard this mentioned lately. We scored 83 points on a #1 seeded team, thought to be the favorite for the national title. Is the system suddenly OK? Did the team finally run the system the way it should be run? Does the system need to be changed? Did anyone find it boring? Why was it different on Sun? I am not certain why it seemed so different; though I think that any HS AA would look at the game we played Sun. and think that was a pretty good offense to be a part of. Just my opinion.

[poodoo]

You make some interesting points, gstan. I, too, would think some talented guys could watch Sunday's game and want tocome to UK andbe a part of the offense they watched, and I hope we're right. :)

Too, some UK fans have watchedour offense (Tubby's offense) in prior seasons and have not been at all impressed. Personally, particularly Erik Daniels' last two seasons, Ihappen to think our offense was a thing of beauty, specifically because of the excellentinterior passing (and Chuck Hayes' interior passing was surely missed this season.)In contrast, this season our offense was often hard to watch. Regardless, evenwithout that fine interior passing of past teams,our offense looked fine when we were executing as we did Sunday. :)

[Littlemeyer]

I love the system. Like Poodoo said, when it works, its a thing of beauty! The only problem could be that is places a premium on shot-making, as well as interior passing. With the 2003 team, we had both of those. Sunday, we had the (perhaps?) most important one, the shot making. Some systems will afford you the opportunity to miss some shots, because you're going to have more possessions/game.

I've said it before...the 2003 team was not only the best passing team I've seen at UK, but they had, by far, the best hands. It seemed like they'd catch anything! Can you imagine how good we'd be if Shag could be trusted like that?

[Will Lavender]

A poster on the other board mentioned an article from The Washington Post today.

The poster quotes John Thompson III as saying something to the effect that it's a myth that highly rated black kids want to play an up-and-down, loose system. Thompson III plays a variation of the Princeton offense, and he's done a good job of bringing talent to Washington, D.C., and that place has been a graveyard for nearly a decade.

This is one reason why I've always felt the "style of play" stuff was more a pedestal for fans to stand on in their argument against Tubby Smith than it is a definite, valid reason why kids might choose another school. To me, except in a few cases where a recruit has mentioned it, it just seems to be a far-fetched idea when (1) there are more important things to these kids than style of play and (2) we don't play the slow-down, lethargic, outdated basketball that many of our fans want people to believe that we play.

[gstan]

There is an old saying that "perception is reality". I think the perception is that we play slow down ball. I would bet that those who recruit against us say this all the time. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that top recruits don't prefer an up tempo style of play. OTS is probably more known for defense than offense and that is not real appealling to young recruits.

[I. Melvin]

Well, if Brandan Wright hadn't publicly stated that style of play was the primary reason he chose UNC over long-time favorite UK, there might be some basis to the "myth" argument.

TubbyBall as played circa 2003 was indeed exquisite and if we ever approach that level of selfless execution again, I'll be delighted.

Still got bounced by lower seeds though, didn't we?

Still give up the dagger threes in spite of our overall percentage, don't we?

Our style of play does not lead to dominating our opponents and, in fact, encourages lesser teams to play us close where somebody can heave a ball behind their head to a chaos-inspired uncovered shooter and send us and the #1 seed we road in on back to our despondent Kentucky home.

We are losing ground at an increasing rate and, in my unprofessional but long-suffering opinion, style of play is the main culprit.

Maybe TubbyBall is like growing a rose - so many factors must work together to produce an award-winner that the likelihood of producing a consistently excellent work is uncomfortably low.

I really, really don't take any pleasure in feeling this way - but it just seems self-evident to me ...

[Will Lavender]

I. Melvin wrote: Well, if Brandan Wright hadn't publicly stated that style of play was the primary reason he chose UNC over long-time favorite UK, there might be some basis to the "myth" argument.


That's just one player, though.

Kentucky has gotten and lost dozens of kids since Tubby has been here.

To cite one kid mentioning style of play doesn't really do much to the argument either way.

I don't want to argue that style of play doesn't weigh on these kids at all. I'm sure it does. They want to be put in a situation where they can get a lot of touches and score a lot of points. It's my opinion, though, that the whole thing is overstated.

I think there are so many issues that are higher on the food chain if we're talking about how we get outrecruited by other coaches.

For instance: race.

I think race, the racial make-up of our fans and those fans' relationship with Tubby Smith, would seem to be so much more interesting fodder for a coach to use in his recruiting spiel against UK.

Don't you think?

[I. Melvin]

Race? Really?

Didn't expect that one.

Inasmuch as 23,000 show up every night to cheer on our black coach with four or five black starters, I'd say any perceived race-based objections should be easily overcome.

In fact, the only boos I heard last year was when the white kid with the funny haircut from Kentucky stole minutes from the black kid with tattoos from Michigan.

This year the boos were earned and were quite equal-opportunity in nature.

Until and unless I hear of one kid saying he didn't come to Kentucky because of his perception of our race relations, I will never believe it.

"Glory Road" was forty years ago. Our enemies may try to keep it alive, but we've repented of that particular sin.

[Will Lavender]

I. Melvin wrote: Race?

Definitely race.

You don't think Roy Williams (for example) tells his potential recruits, "Look at how Kentucky fans treat their coach on message boards and call-in shows"? I don't think there's any doubt. Like gstan said about style of play: perception is reality. The perception is that (1) UK has a sordid past with race, and the perception is that (2) Lexington is not the friendliest city when it comes to race relations, and the perception is that (3) all UK fans hate Tubby Smith (I, personally, have heard that one) - I think those three things equal something that opposing coaches can use against us. And they do so.

[RCS]

Clearly style of play is a factor, but as others have said, probably over stated. I would say it is more a reflection of Tubby's failure as a recruiter than Tubby's style of play. I just don't think he is much of a salesman. If there is a more fun and beautiful style than what we played in 2003 and 2004 I have yet to see it. Those teams were a thing a beauty. Pitino plays a supposed fast past style and his teams are excruciating to watch because they do not execute it well. That is true of any system. Run most systems well and hit shots and it looks good. Run it poorly and any system looks bad.

[I. Melvin]

Well, you could be right. I just think it's ludicrous to think Chapel Hill (small, Southern town in a vehemently pro-slavery state with an equal share of hillbillies whose coach is as white as they come and has never had a black head coach) would be able to sell any moderately discerning black high school graduate that UK's decade-tenured African-American coach is universally reviled because of his race.

Possible, I guess, but I doubt it.

Now, someone like Nolan Richardson undoubtedly did and would again use such an argument. But he ain't coaching anywhere at the moment.

I think it's closer to the truth to accept Wright's statement as his honest opinion.

[kybuc]

Style of Play is just one of many attributes a young man considers when he's being recruited. Some recruits may have that attribute at the top and some may even have it at the bottom.

Take Tyler Hansborough for instance - he stated the reason he chose UNC over UK was the national exposure generated by ESPN's coverage of the ACC and the DUKE/UNC rivalry. Now how's that for a unfair recruiting advantage.

Glad Tubby's doing the recruiting and not one of us!

[FrogtownRoadCat]

Will Lavender wrote: I. Melvin wrote: Race?

Definitely race.

You don't think Roy Williams (for example) tells his potential recruits, "Look at how Kentucky fans treat their coach on message boards and call-in shows"? I don't think there's any doubt. Like gstan said about style of play: perception is reality. The perception is that (1) UK has a sordid past with race, and the perception is that (2) Lexington is not the friendliest city when it comes to race relations, and the perception is that (3) all UK fans hate Tubby Smith (I, personally, have heard that one) - I think those three things equal something that opposing coaches can use against us. And they do so.
I think you're stretching things Will. Just like Roy couldn't give a sh*t about Carolina after Kansas lost the championship game in 2003, I think he (and others like him) couldn't give a sh*t about message boards and call-in shows, much less point to them as a reason why Star Recruit should join the Heels instead of the Cats.

[Will Lavender]

FrogtownRoadCat wrote: Will Lavender wrote: I. Melvin wrote: Race?

Definitely race.

You don't think Roy Williams (for example) tells his potential recruits, "Look at how Kentucky fans treat their coach on message boards and call-in shows"? I don't think there's any doubt. Like gstan said about style of play: perception is reality. The perception is that (1) UK has a sordid past with race, and the perception is that (2) Lexington is not the friendliest city when it comes to race relations, and the perception is that (3) all UK fans hate Tubby Smith (I, personally, have heard that one) - I think those three things equal something that opposing coaches can use against us. And they do so.
I think you're stretching things Will. Just like Roy couldn't give a sh*t about Carolina after Kansas lost the championship game in 2003, I think he (and others like him) couldn't give a sh*t about message boards and call-in shows, much less point to them as a reason why Star Recruit should join the Heels instead of the Cats.
Ah, but if you don't pay attention to what's happening in Message Board World, then you're going to be passed by.

Why? Because the kids care.

These kids are as plugged in as they ever have been. You know they're out there scouring these boards (the corporate boards, like Rivals, are surely the prime targets) as affirmation of their gifts.

Coaches know that, and I think they exploit it.

And it's not just the message boards. It's talk radio. Hell, it's ESPN. I've seen the guys on ESPN bat around the idea that "all Kentucky fans hate Tubby," and that has to be fodder for Roy Williams' (and others') recruiting pitch. Has to be.

[poodoo]

Will Lavender wrote:

This is one reason why I've always felt the "style of play" stuff was more a pedestal for fans to stand on in their argument against Tubby Smith than it is a definite, valid reason why kids might choose another school. To me, except in a few cases where a recruit has mentioned it, it just seems to be a far-fetched idea when (1) there are more important things to these kids than style of play and (2) we don't play the slow-down, lethargic, outdated basketball that many of our fans want people to believe that we play.



Good points, Will. Too, I have noticed that many UK commitments have stated "style of play" as a reason they came to UK, FWIW.

We also agree, in general,about Roy Williams. I don't know WHAT he is telling them about UK, but I think he is telling them something. When we lose one big man after another to Williams and North Carolina, including a couple of guys who had been expected to sign with UK (Hansborough and, even more Brandon Wright), it just seems likely.

In relation to Brandan Wright, a friend of my husband said he asked him why he chose UNCover UK. Wright's answer, according to this trustworthy friend, was that he was afraid he would not getenough minutesat UK,which could hurt him in regard to making it to the NBA. Did someone whisper that into the ear of a guy who Tubby thought was in his pocket?Who knows!

I have repeatedly said that I feel the UK coachesmay not SELL themselves and this program well enough.Recently I heard Dick Gabriel and Darrell Bird from the Cats' Pause Showwonder the same. As I have been saying and they said, Tubby and the other coaches need to make recruits quite aware of their success in developing complete players for the NBA.

[poodoo]

kybuc wrote: Style of Play is just one of many attributes a young man considers when he's being recruited. Some recruits may have that attribute at the top and some may even have it at the bottom.

Take Tyler Hansborough for instance - he stated the reason he chose UNC over UK was the national exposure generated by ESPN's coverage of the ACC and the DUKE/UNC rivalry. Now how's that for a unfair recruiting advantage.





Hmmm. Surely no one would argue with that! UK is at a definite disadvantage in that regard.

[T75]

For instance: race.

I think race, the racial make-up of our fans and those fans' relationship with Tubby Smith, would seem to be so much more interesting fodder for a coach to use in his recruiting spiel against UK.

Don't you think?

Don't know about that. Seems to me that when Tubby has had teams that played well and did as well as expected or better (which isn't often) he has been adored by UK fans more than any coach at any time other than Pitino. I think Rupp was treated as badly as Tubby has been this year when he started having some mediocre seasons late in his tenure. And, Lord knows, poor ole Joe B took more than a fair share of grief from us fans---and he was "one of us". We didn't knowwhy Eddie said he'd crawl to Lexington for that job---until we saw that he could hardly stand up to walk. Practically ran him out of town on a rail.

Probably the emergence of internet sports boards and chat rooms just makes the fan thinking and responses more visible than they were in earlier years when we mostly were only aware of what our small circle of acquaintances knew or thought.

I'm not trying to compare Rick and Tubby, but Rick seemed to do more than expectedfor severalyears.And he left when his team peaked. And since he broke our hearts, we've treated him worse since he left than we have any other coach ever.

So, while it's obvious that UK fans expect and demand much from their coaches, I don't think it's any more for Tubby than it would be for any other coach. I just wish Tubby would handlethe tough seasonsas gracefully as Joe B did. I think the racist aspect comes in when Black coaches blametheir failures on race. Yet places like Ole Miss are willing to give Black coaches a chance---and love them if they win. I've never known fans anywhere to love a loser, no matter the color; nor fail to love a winner.....

[BrassowFan]

T75 wrote: Don't know about that. Seems to me that when Tubby has had teams that played well and did as well as expected or better (which isn't often) he has been adored by UK fans more than any coach at any time other than Pitino. I think Rupp was treated as badly as Tubby has been this year when he started having some mediocre seasons late in his tenure. And, Lord knows, poor ole Joe B took more than a fair share of grief from us fans---and he was "one of us". We didn't knowwhy Eddie said he'd crawl to Lexington for that job---until we saw that he could hardly stand up to walk. Practically ran him out of town on a rail.

Probably the emergence of internet sports boards and chat rooms just makes the fan thinking and responses more visible than they were in earlier years when we mostly were only aware of what our small circle of acquaintances knew or thought.

I'm not trying to compare Rick and Tubby, but Rick seemed to do more than expectedfor severalyears.And he left when his team peaked. And since he broke our hearts, we've treated him worse since he left than we have any other coach ever.

So, while it's obvious that UK fans expect and demand much from their coaches, I don't think it's any more for Tubby than it would be for any other coach. I just wish Tubby would handlethe tough seasonsas gracefully as Joe B did. I think the racist aspect comes in when Black coaches blametheir failures on race. Yet places like Ole Miss are willing to give Black coaches a chance---and love them if they win. I've never known fans anywhere to love a loser, no matter the color; nor fail to love a winner.....

Excellent post!:thumbup