Rumors from The Cats' Pause

[T75]

Just looking thru the latest issue of The Cats' Pause and there's an interesting article by Matt May who is no Larry Vaught by any means but he is more in the know than I am. Matt addresses some of the current rumors with three parts: What we hear, what we know and what we predict.

Some of them go like this:

Scott Rigot: Rumors persist that Tubby is trying to place him so that he can shake up his staff. We know recruiting hasn't been up to UK standards and someone has to take the blame. We predict that Rigot will be somewhere else before too long and Buzz Peterson will replace him on Tubby's staff.

Reggie: Rumor has it that he tried to get considered for the Murray job. What we know is that now would probably be a good time for a change of scenery for him since he's interested in moving up the ladder. Predict thatTubby won't push him out, but if an opportunity arises, Tubby will let him move along with his blessings.

Crawford: We hear that he was practically out the door immediately after the tournament (in which he was a no-show) but has since calmed down. We know (and this I don't understand--and would like to know if others understand what he means) "Crawford's lost weekend in the tournament and subsequent teammate bashing likely didn't sit well in the locker room". Who was bashing whom is what I don't know. We predict that since his reputation would take a serious hit if he left now, he'll hang around and blossom next year like Kelenna did.

Obrzut:Condensed version---he's not lived up to his hype, probably won't get much better, can graduate at mid term and may go to Europe for pro ball. (IMO, I'd like to see him go so Carter can get some early PT behind Morris.)

Bradley: Rumored at one time or another to be going to about every east coast school--mostly St Johns in his hometown. We know that he's been in and out of Tubby's dog house all along but predict that with Rondo gone, he knows he'll have big time PT so he'll stay. (And, IMO again, I think he'll get serious and play more soundly and consistently when he becomes "the man".)

Sims: He's been rumored to leave as much as anyone on the team. We know his play deteriorated steadily all of last season after a very good start. Since he only has a single season remaining it's hard to believe that he'll leave. But then if he couldn't make it onto the court last year, what chance would he have this year? Logical thinking has him packing his bags. (I hope not; he should get at least as much PT as Stevenson.)

Lots more to happen before the repercussions of the 2005/2006 season are finished. We'll see.

Matt did say that Tubby ain't leavin'. I agree.

[Will Lavender]

Interesting stuff. Especially the Crawford section.

If Joe was indeed "teammate bashing," then that's a disgrace. The kid did NOTHING in the tournament. Nothing. And when we needed him to hit a big shot in the SEC Tournament, he whiffed on it. I can't remember a time last season - no, a time in his CAREER with the exception of one game in Atlanta - when Joe Crawford has done anything in a big game at a crucial time.

That kid needs to get his priorities straight. I realize this story may not be all there is to know, but unless you're helping the team on a consistent basis (which Joe hasn't), then you have no right to bash anyone.

Sheesh.

(I also agree with May that I wish Woo would move on. I have never understood the minutes he gets over more worthy, at least IMO, players. Good kid, horrible fit. Ditto Sheray Thomas.)

[T75]

Will, the reason I quoted precisely the part about teammate bashing in the Crawford section is that it wasn't clear to me whether Joe was bashing or getting bashed. I thought possibly some or someone hadharsh comments about/toJoe for his lack of contribution in the tournament. He'd been playing very steady sound ball coming in to the tournament. But I'd heard nothing like this before.

[WWH Mustaine]

T75 wrote: Just looking thru the latest issue of The Cats' Pause and there's an interesting article by Matt May who is no Larry Vaught by any means but he is more in the know than I am. Matt addresses some of the current rumors with three parts: What we hear, what we know and what we predict.

Some of them go like this:

Scott Rigot: Rumors persist that Tubby is trying to place him so that he can shake up his staff. We know recruiting hasn't been up to UK standards and someone has to take the blame. We predict that Rigot will be somewhere else before too long and Buzz Peterson will replace him on Tubby's staff.

Reggie: Rumor has it that he tried to get considered for the Murray job. What we know is that now would probably be a good time for a change of scenery for him since he's interested in moving up the ladder. Predict thatTubby won't push him out, but if an opportunity arises, Tubby will let him move along with his blessings.

Crawford: We hear that he was practically out the door immediately after the tournament (in which he was a no-show) but has since calmed down. We know (and this I don't understand--and would like to know if others understand what he means) "Crawford's lost weekend in the tournament and subsequent teammate bashing likely didn't sit well in the locker room". Who was bashing whom is what I don't know. We predict that since his reputation would take a serious hit if he left now, he'll hang around and blossom next year like Kelenna did.

Obrzut:Condensed version---he's not lived up to his hype, probably won't get much better, can graduate at mid term and may go to Europe for pro ball. (IMO, I'd like to see him go so Carter can get some early PT behind Morris.)

Bradley: Rumored at one time or another to be going to about every east coast school--mostly St Johns in his hometown. We know that he's been in and out of Tubby's dog house all along but predict that with Rondo gone, he knows he'll have big time PT so he'll stay. (And, IMO again, I think he'll get serious and play more soundly and consistently when he becomes "the man".)

Sims: He's been rumored to leave as much as anyone on the team. We know his play deteriorated steadily all of last season after a very good start. Since he only has a single season remaining it's hard to believe that he'll leave. But then if he couldn't make it onto the court last year, what chance would he have this year? Logical thinking has him packing his bags. (I hope not; he should get at least as much PT as Stevenson.)

Lots more to happen before the repercussions of the 2005/2006 season are finished. We'll see.

Matt did say that Tubby ain't leavin'. I agree.
I knew several of the players were unhappy, but still.

That's some depressing stuff.

So Tubby wants to make changes on the staff, but he won't do so unless he can be assured that his assistants have jobs lined up first? Unbelievable. Give them good references, give them a nice severance package, give them names and numbers to call, but good God, Tubby. Do your job. Make sure we're in the best possible position to win basketball games. This is Kentucky basketball, not a freaking day care.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Will Lavender]

T75 wrote: Will, the reason I quoted precisely the part about teammate bashing in the Crawford section is that it wasn't clear to me whether Joe was bashing or getting bashed. I thought possibly some or someone hadharsh comments about/toJoe for his lack of contribution in the tournament. He'd been playing very steady sound ball coming in to the tournament. But I'd heard nothing like this before.
It would appear that the phrase "didn't set well in the locker room" refers to Joe doing the bashing.

However, when I read it a little closely, May may have written that sentence with the words "with Joe" implicit. For example: "The subsequent teammate bashing didn't set well in the locker room [with Joe]."

[Will Lavender]

WWH Mustaine wrote: T75 wrote: Just looking thru the latest issue of The Cats' Pause and there's an interesting article by Matt May who is no Larry Vaught by any means but he is more in the know than I am. Matt addresses some of the current rumors with three parts: What we hear, what we know and what we predict.

Some of them go like this:

Scott Rigot: Rumors persist that Tubby is trying to place him so that he can shake up his staff. We know recruiting hasn't been up to UK standards and someone has to take the blame. We predict that Rigot will be somewhere else before too long and Buzz Peterson will replace him on Tubby's staff.

Reggie: Rumor has it that he tried to get considered for the Murray job. What we know is that now would probably be a good time for a change of scenery for him since he's interested in moving up the ladder. Predict thatTubby won't push him out, but if an opportunity arises, Tubby will let him move along with his blessings.

Crawford: We hear that he was practically out the door immediately after the tournament (in which he was a no-show) but has since calmed down. We know (and this I don't understand--and would like to know if others understand what he means) "Crawford's lost weekend in the tournament and subsequent teammate bashing likely didn't sit well in the locker room". Who was bashing whom is what I don't know. We predict that since his reputation would take a serious hit if he left now, he'll hang around and blossom next year like Kelenna did.

Obrzut:Condensed version---he's not lived up to his hype, probably won't get much better, can graduate at mid term and may go to Europe for pro ball. (IMO, I'd like to see him go so Carter can get some early PT behind Morris.)

Bradley: Rumored at one time or another to be going to about every east coast school--mostly St Johns in his hometown. We know that he's been in and out of Tubby's dog house all along but predict that with Rondo gone, he knows he'll have big time PT so he'll stay. (And, IMO again, I think he'll get serious and play more soundly and consistently when he becomes "the man".)

Sims: He's been rumored to leave as much as anyone on the team. We know his play deteriorated steadily all of last season after a very good start. Since he only has a single season remaining it's hard to believe that he'll leave. But then if he couldn't make it onto the court last year, what chance would he have this year? Logical thinking has him packing his bags. (I hope not; he should get at least as much PT as Stevenson.)

Lots more to happen before the repercussions of the 2005/2006 season are finished. We'll see.

Matt did say that Tubby ain't leavin'. I agree.
I knew several of the players were unhappy, but still.

That's some depressing stuff.

So Tubby wants to make changes on the staff, but he won't do so unless he can be assured that his assistants have jobs lined up first? Unbelievable. Give them good references, give them a nice severance package, give them names and numbers to call, but good God, Tubby. Do your job. Make sure we're in the best possible position to win basketball games. This is Kentucky basketball, not a freaking day care.

Absolutely ridiculous.

This has been gone over on the other board by Matt May himself. (And by Jeff Drummond.)

We want to blame some of these problems on the assistants. But Tubby himself should take some of the blame, and has. Why would he throw his assistants under the bus by firing them and then just go on about his own business?

All these assistants have been part of winning teams in the past. It's not like it has been three years of utter mediocrity since Scott Rigot showed up in Lexington. I don't think it's so easy where we can just fire somebody and everything is okay. Tubby may feel like some of the methods of the staff may change - like how they break down film, their summer routines, and so on (he spoke about these things on the last BBL of the year) - and that might be a quicker way to righting the ship than just kicking people to the curb.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

Didn't Joe have some harsh words for the "big men's" lack of rebounding against UCONN. He said something along the lines of "had our big guys done thier job, we could have won this game." Of course Joe's line for the game was less than stellar. Possibly that is what the article is referring to?

[DonnieKat]

Will Lavender wrote: Interesting stuff. Especially the Crawford section.

If Joe was indeed "teammate bashing," then that's a disgrace. The kid did NOTHING in the tournament. Nothing. And when we needed him to hit a big shot in the SEC Tournament, he whiffed on it. I can't remember a time last season - no, a time in his CAREER with the exception of one game in Atlanta - when Joe Crawford has done anything in a big game at a crucial time.

That kid needs to get his priorities straight. I realize this story may not be all there is to know, but unless you're helping the team on a consistent basis (which Joe hasn't), then you have no right to bash anyone.

Sheesh.

(I also agree with May that I wish Woo would move on. I have never understood the minutes he gets over more worthy, at least IMO, players. Good kid, horrible fit. Ditto Sheray Thomas.)

Joe made some comments to the media after the UConn game. I can't remember his exact words, but he called some folks out on the rebounding responsibilities @ the end of the game when UConn got all of those offensive boards. I remember one comment in particular was aimed at Rondo (although he never said Rondo's name).

[Buddah]

This article, since it is of the best interest to put the most positive spin on everything, lets see another view.

If seeds already sown, who is to say, they won't re appear if things got off to a shaky start. IF Ramel doesn;t do the things Tubby wants, and tubby benches him, then that could cause distractions on and off the court, or if things do not go well and crawford bashes teammates. Better to clean house, fully instead of letting things remain that could, possibly become problems. sounds like to me that if neither reggie or rigot can get jobs, that tubby isn't going to push them out of the door..just my opinion, i would rather have a clean slate, then have to hear the invetiable distraction arugement from some as a justifcation if the season doesn't turn out well. I agree WIll, crawford has been dissapointing, i was hoping for more leadership than bashing each other.

[wildcatfaninnc]

Will Lavender wrote: Interesting stuff. Especially the Crawford section.

If Joe was indeed "teammate bashing," then that's a disgrace. The kid did NOTHING in the tournament. Nothing. And when we needed him to hit a big shot in the SEC Tournament, he whiffed on it. I can't remember a time last season - no, a time in his CAREER with the exception of one game in Atlanta - when Joe Crawford has done anything in a big game at a crucial time.

That kid needs to get his priorities straight. I realize this story may not be all there is to know, but unless you're helping the team on a consistent basis (which Joe hasn't), then you have no right to bash anyone.

Sheesh.

(I also agree with May that I wish Woo would move on. I have never understood the minutes he gets over more worthy, at least IMO, players. Good kid, horrible fit. Ditto Sheray Thomas.)
I made a post earlier in the yr about our Soph. class being the root of our chemistry problems this yr. Italked about JC and some posters told me I was crazy. Although I may be crazy, this is another example of JC pouting when things are not going his way. First he wanted to leave the team high and dry last yr when he didn't get playing time and now there are rumors of him ready to walk out the door after his Soph yr. What can we expect from JC next?:shrug:

[Buddah]

wildcatfaninnc wrote:
Will Lavender wrote: Interesting stuff. Especially the Crawford section.

If Joe was indeed "teammate bashing," then that's a disgrace. The kid did NOTHING in the tournament. Nothing. And when we needed him to hit a big shot in the SEC Tournament, he whiffed on it. I can't remember a time last season - no, a time in his CAREER with the exception of one game in Atlanta - when Joe Crawford has done anything in a big game at a crucial time.

That kid needs to get his priorities straight. I realize this story may not be all there is to know, but unless you're helping the team on a consistent basis (which Joe hasn't), then you have no right to bash anyone.

Sheesh.

(I also agree with May that I wish Woo would move on. I have never understood the minutes he gets over more worthy, at least IMO, players. Good kid, horrible fit. Ditto Sheray Thomas.)
I made a post earlier in the yr about our Soph. class being the root of our chemistry problems this yr.Â* IÂ*talked about JC and some posters told me I was crazy.Â* Although I may be crazy, this is another example of JC pouting when things are not going his way.Â* First he wanted to leave the team high and dry last yr when he didn't get playing time and now there are rumors of him ready to walk out the door after his Soph yr.Â* What can we expect from JC next?:shrug:


I brought up the same things, the indecesion of joe is amazing. he seems to have a history that pre dates him coming to UK. I thought he committed, de committed to michigan, then didn't he committ again, before coming to uk, leaving, going to michigan state, coming back to uk, only to want to leave again... if things were to not go his way next season, it will be more of the same, why take that chance ?

[phoenix]

Yeah, I read it, but now I feel dirty...:tongue

[T75]

Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

[Will Lavender]

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

Many predicted that Joe would "blossom" this year, though. It wasn't to be. (He wasn't healthy all year, in his defense.) He had a solid year, and had some stretches where he played very well, but he was never a guy that you could tab as a go-to guy. Not even close.

Joe's the kind of player who can do well and not help the team. He's the kind of player who can get 15 points or so and everybody looks around after the game and says, "Crawford had 15?!" One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that Joe tends to sort of fade away during the game's big moments. He'll hit some shots early in halves, get some baskets here and there to pad leads - but he's historically been absent in the clutch.

It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen. He makes Patrick Sparks look like Joakim Noah. When he missed that late three against South Carolina, Randolph Morris immediately went to him and grabbed him. I took this as a sign that Joe has big-time confidence issues, and everybody knows it.

It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D

[kyrgaines]

Yeah, well Joe has to quit all the pouting all the time. He has alot of potential but that is all it is right now. Keith Bogans did that for 3 years before finally figuring out it was only making things worse. He obviously isn't used to notbeing the starbut he simply hasn't responded and has had several opportunities to prove himself. He needs to play as a team player and his game will follow.

[phoenix]

Oh no, you aren't nailing him with that "passive expression" label are you? That will be followed by 2 more posters saying, yeah he doesn't care about the team or he and Tubby don't get along or he doesn't want to be here. Geez. That seems to be a popular sport around here, criticizing players based on facial expressions if they don't quite live up to our expectations. Your criticism is also pretty well unmerritted when you talk about him not helping the team. Look at his average points, look at our average winning margin and please explain to me how he can put up all those points and still not help the team. Joe was doing very well the last stretch of the season. 40% on the last 50 3pt shots is great and it was a great improvement from early in the season. As for his performance at clutch time? Maybe, maybe not. I don't look for sophs to be carrying the team on their back at clutch time on a regular basis. I did keep seeing Joe getting smarter and doing more things as the season went on and I expect next year he will continue to improve. I am looking for more good stuff out of Joe next year and I look for him to step it up at the end of games and clutch time more as he gets more time in, either way he will continue to be a valuable well of points during the season. In spite of what some posters think, the 4 in the middle of the game count just as much as the 4 at the end of the game and somebody on the team has to score them.

19 years old, 10 pts a game for KY, in 20 some minutes a game. Let's see where he goes from here before getting too excited about stuff on Joe.

List of players with the facial expressioncriticisms this year:

Rondo(never heard a peep about his expressions last year, same expressions)

Sparks

Sims

Morris(and last year)

Crawford

Bradley

not on that list, Perry, Thomas, Williams, LeMaster, Carter, Shag, Woo

Doggone better wear your aggressive game face when playing for KY, either that or win the NC

Will Lavender wrote:

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

Many predicted that Joe would "blossom" this year, though. It wasn't to be. (He wasn't healthy all year, in his defense.) He had a solid year, and had some stretches where he played very well, but he was never a guy that you could tab as a go-to guy. Not even close.

Joe's the kind of player who can do well and not help the team. He's the kind of player who can get 15 points or so and everybody looks around after the game and says, "Crawford had 15?!" One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that Joe tends to sort of fade away during the game's big moments. He'll hit some shots early in halves, get some baskets here and there to pad leads - but he's historically been absent in the clutch.

It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen. He makes Patrick Sparks look like Joakim Noah. When he missed that late three against South Carolina, Randolph Morris immediately went to him and grabbed him. I took this as a sign that Joe has big-time confidence issues, and everybody knows it.

It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D

[Aike]

Obviously they count the same on the scoreboard. However, I would argue that the 4 scored at end of the game often have more value because there is more pressure being exerted, both mental and defensive.

This is no knock on Joe, who btw, did knock down some big shots LATE in games, even if they weren't buzzer beaters. Just a general observation.

phoenix wrote: In spite of what some posters think, the 4 in the middle of the game count just as much as the 4 at the end of the game and somebody on the team has to score them.

[phoenix]

That is one way of looking at it, but it is also true that if you had enough players putting in 4 here, 4 there during the middle of the game, those last minutes would be free throws, because the other team was trying to foul to catch up. Joe was shooting those FT's pretty good too. We scratched out or lost late in the games this year due to not enough baskets in the middle. One of the reasons the Carter and Williams saw so little action. If players do the job in the middle of the game they can avoid some pressure at the end of them.

Aike wrote:
Obviously they count the same on the scoreboard. However, I would argue that the 4 scored at end of the game often have more value because there is more pressure being exerted, both mental and defensive.

This is no knock on Joe, who btw, did knock down some big shots LATE in games, even if they weren't buzzer beaters. Just a general observation.

phoenix wrote: In spite of what some posters think, the 4 in the middle of the game count just as much as the 4 at the end of the game and somebody on the team has to score them.

[Aike]

True, and this is an area where Kentucky has been lacking for a while. We used to put our foot on somebody's throat when we had 'em down.

phoenix wrote: That is one way of looking at it, but it is also true that if you had enough players putting in 4 here, 4 there during the middle of the game, those last minutes would be free throws, because the other team was trying to foul to catch up. Joe was shooting those FT's pretty good too. We scratched out or lost late in the games this year due to not enough baskets in the middle. One of the reasons the Carter and Williams saw so little action. If players do the job in the middle of the game they can avoid some pressure at the end of them.

Aike wrote:
Obviously they count the same on the scoreboard. However, I would argue that the 4 scored at end of the game often have more value because there is more pressure being exerted, both mental and defensive.

This is no knock on Joe, who btw, did knock down some big shots LATE in games, even if they weren't buzzer beaters. Just a general observation.

phoenix wrote: In spite of what some posters think, the 4 in the middle of the game count just as much as the 4 at the end of the game and somebody on the team has to score them.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: Oh no, you aren't nailing him with that "passive expression" label are you?

Will Lavender wrote:

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

Many predicted that Joe would "blossom" this year, though. It wasn't to be. (He wasn't healthy all year, in his defense.) He had a solid year, and had some stretches where he played very well, but he was never a guy that you could tab as a go-to guy. Not even close.

Joe's the kind of player who can do well and not help the team. He's the kind of player who can get 15 points or so and everybody looks around after the game and says, "Crawford had 15?!" One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that Joe tends to sort of fade away during the game's big moments. He'll hit some shots early in halves, get some baskets here and there to pad leads - but he's historically been absent in the clutch.

It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen. He makes Patrick Sparks look like Joakim Noah. When he missed that late three against South Carolina, Randolph Morris immediately went to him and grabbed him. I took this as a sign that Joe has big-time confidence issues, and everybody knows it.

It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D


Yes. Absolutely I am. Tubby has commented on Joe's lack of confidence; other players have commented on it; and Joe plays with a phenomenal lack of...something. He doesn't have "it." Or when he does, it comes and goes in the blink of an eye.

I sat front row for a practice last year, ten feet away from those kids. Joe doesn't use his body right; like he himself said at some time this year, he "doesn't know his role." I feel like this might be partly Tubby's fault, but I don't know if Joe himself has figured out what kind of player he is. Is he a slasher, is he a shooter? Who knows. Until he figures out what he wants to be, he'll never be the player I think he can be at UK.

And it's not an issue of whether he's unhappy or not. That's not what I'm suggesting in my post. It's that he plays tentative 60% of the time. He plays unsure about 75% of the time. And his gestures betray his insecurity.

I'm not unlocking any DaVinci code here. It's not that hard to see. Any idiot can see it. And plus...PLUS we have Joe's record: the fact that he actually tried to leave the team at one point. I don't think I'm bringing any profound truths to the table. Something is wrong, and I for one think it's a mental flaw.

[Will Lavender]

Also:

I don't want to say with the above post that Joe had a bad year. I think he had a good year; it was statistically better than I thought he could bring. It's just that Joe's strong performances often come at the wrong time, hardly ever when we need him the most. And, like Kelenna Azubuike before him, he's got the habit of following up 22 point games with 2 point games.

[NYCat]

Will Lavender wrote: Also:

I don't want to say with the above post that Joe had a bad year. I think he had a good year; it was statistically better than I thought he could bring. It's just that Joe's strong performances often come at the wrong time, hardly ever when we need him the most. And, like Kelenna Azubuike before him, he's got the habit of following up 22 point games with 2 point games.

I was just going to bring Kaz... I mean, do you remember Kaz hitting alot of clutch or big time shots? When we needed some points, were we looking to get them from Kaz?

IMHO Craford and Kaz are very similar in that respect. The anti-Fitch if you will. Fitch was one of those guys, that could just hit big shot after big shot.

[BigblueDrew]

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

How can the chemistry thing be better if Crawford is the one causing it. This article seems to imply that RAJON was NOT the problem despite some of our fans convictions that he was. It appears to me our problems are still in Lexington. My prediction is that we will not win the SEC agian until this head case Sophmore class is gone.

[phoenix]

Sitting in the front row of practice one night must be like staying at the Holiday Inn. Can't agree with you and in fact don't think you are even close on Joe. And as far as basketball analysis, [Edited for posting violation].:rolleyes:

The only consistent scorer on this team was Morris followed by Rondo. Joe contributed good points in good games, and had more double figure games after he started playing regularly than our shooting guard. And Fitch as a sophomore was not a points machine, that came in his JR SR season, and not sure that is the term I would use but he put up good numbers.



Will Lavender wrote:

phoenix wrote: Oh no, you aren't nailing him with that "passive expression" label are you?

Will Lavender wrote:

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

Many predicted that Joe would "blossom" this year, though. It wasn't to be. (He wasn't healthy all year, in his defense.) He had a solid year, and had some stretches where he played very well, but he was never a guy that you could tab as a go-to guy. Not even close.

Joe's the kind of player who can do well and not help the team. He's the kind of player who can get 15 points or so and everybody looks around after the game and says, "Crawford had 15?!" One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that Joe tends to sort of fade away during the game's big moments. He'll hit some shots early in halves, get some baskets here and there to pad leads - but he's historically been absent in the clutch.

It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen. He makes Patrick Sparks look like Joakim Noah. When he missed that late three against South Carolina, Randolph Morris immediately went to him and grabbed him. I took this as a sign that Joe has big-time confidence issues, and everybody knows it.

It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D


Yes. Absolutely I am. Tubby has commented on Joe's lack of confidence; other players have commented on it; and Joe plays with a phenomenal lack of...something. He doesn't have "it." Or when he does, it comes and goes in the blink of an eye.

I sat front row for a practice last year, ten feet away from those kids. Joe doesn't use his body right; like he himself said at some time this year, he "doesn't know his role." I feel like this might be partly Tubby's fault, but I don't know if Joe himself has figured out what kind of player he is. Is he a slasher, is he a shooter? Who knows. Until he figures out what he wants to be, he'll never be the player I think he can be at UK.

And it's not an issue of whether he's unhappy or not. That's not what I'm suggesting in my post. It's that he plays tentative 60% of the time. He plays unsure about 75% of the time. And his gestures betray his insecurity.

I'm not unlocking any DaVinci code here. It's not that hard to see. Any idiot can see it. And plus...PLUS we have Joe's record: the fact that he actually tried to leave the team at one point. I don't think I'm bringing any profound truths to the table. Something is wrong, and I for one think it's a mental flaw.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: Joe contributed good points in good games.

Will Lavender wrote:

phoenix wrote: Oh no, you aren't nailing him with that "passive expression" label are you?

Will Lavender wrote:

T75 wrote: Well, May predicted that Crawford would blossom next year sorta lilke Kelenna did. I could live with that---and t he team sure could use it. I'm no insider, but I believe that the chemistry thing will be much better with Rondo gone even if we aren't able to cover his rebounds, steals, etc. with someone else.

What I would ask of next year's team is that they all try (play) hard and do the best they can. That's all we can ask but we sure as heck didn't even come close this season. It could happen next year.

Many predicted that Joe would "blossom" this year, though. It wasn't to be. (He wasn't healthy all year, in his defense.) He had a solid year, and had some stretches where he played very well, but he was never a guy that you could tab as a go-to guy. Not even close.

Joe's the kind of player who can do well and not help the team. He's the kind of player who can get 15 points or so and everybody looks around after the game and says, "Crawford had 15?!" One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that Joe tends to sort of fade away during the game's big moments. He'll hit some shots early in halves, get some baskets here and there to pad leads - but he's historically been absent in the clutch.

It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen. He makes Patrick Sparks look like Joakim Noah. When he missed that late three against South Carolina, Randolph Morris immediately went to him and grabbed him. I took this as a sign that Joe has big-time confidence issues, and everybody knows it.

It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D


Yes. Absolutely I am. Tubby has commented on Joe's lack of confidence; other players have commented on it; and Joe plays with a phenomenal lack of...something. He doesn't have "it." Or when he does, it comes and goes in the blink of an eye.

I sat front row for a practice last year, ten feet away from those kids. Joe doesn't use his body right; like he himself said at some time this year, he "doesn't know his role." I feel like this might be partly Tubby's fault, but I don't know if Joe himself has figured out what kind of player he is. Is he a slasher, is he a shooter? Who knows. Until he figures out what he wants to be, he'll never be the player I think he can be at UK.

And it's not an issue of whether he's unhappy or not. That's not what I'm suggesting in my post. It's that he plays tentative 60% of the time. He plays unsure about 75% of the time. And his gestures betray his insecurity.

I'm not unlocking any DaVinci code here. It's not that hard to see. Any idiot can see it. And plus...PLUS we have Joe's record: the fact that he actually tried to leave the team at one point. I don't think I'm bringing any profound truths to the table. Something is wrong, and I for one think it's a mental flaw.



Has he had a big game in his career against a good team?

I'm really asking. I don't think he has. The two best big games he has played, IIRC, have been LSU in Atlanta his freshman year and Louisville at home this past season. In both those games, he didn't come close to an explosion - just a solid all-around game.

Where's Joe's breakout game against a good team? I mean, isn't that why he came to UK? You used Gerald Fitch in your example, but Fitch wasn't even on the recruiting radar. Joe was supposedly the best shooting guard who chose college.

Well, it's a funny thing: by this time in their careers Gerald Fitch was by far the more consistent performer. By far.

And your point about our lack of consistent scorers is right on, I think. This team was full of inconsistent players last season in all facets of the game. But that doesn't exonerate Joe; along with Patrick Sparks and maybe Rondo, he was the most wildly up and down player on the team.

Maybe you're fine with a guy who will come out one night and get 20 points and then the next night not hit a field goal. Fine with me. But you can't convince me that there's not something wrong with that, and that that wrongness is more than likely a confidence issue.

[bwright]

I remember that LSU game last year as being a very close game and Joe stepped up at a time when we needed it desperately.

And the wrongness is more like a Tubby Smith issue. He has taken the fun out of basketballfor a great deal of the players and that is why their confidence is down. I think a change in coaches would bring something great out of Crawford, Morris, and Bradley.

[T75]

Will Lavender wrote:
It's the boy's mind, I think. He plays with the most passive expression of anyone I've seen.

Those old boys up in the hills called it the "hang-dog" look---meaning defeated, guilty, sneaky, whupped. you know, likehe can't bring himself to raise his face and look you square in the eye. I used to have an old hound dog that would slink around looking like that when he knew he'd done something wrong.

But, Will, I think Morris actually out-does him for the passive expression because his drooping eye-lids make him look as though he's half asleep on top of everything else.:lol:

[phoenix]

We could go into tiny details with this argument but check his game by game stats.

Double figures against TN every game.

Double figures against AL X 2

Double figures against SC 3 straight time

games of 19 and 21 against FL

This collection of scoring games seems like he is doing a pretty reasonable job for a sophomore at KY, at least from the scoring side of it. Don't know what more to expect at this point, but next year I would expect him tohave a solid strategy to make use of defenses that key on stopping him. I don't know at this pointwhether he should have that facet fully developed or not.

He could do more and probably will in the future, but I really think he is where he needs to be.

I didn't bring Fitch into the argument did I? You brought Fitch in, I just pointed out that he wasn't all that potent as a sophomore. I don't thinkJoe's performance is off track at this time for his maturity.

BTW it would always be in your best interest when arguing to checkand see if the stats backyour opinion(especially your opinion on Fitch), lets just take a quick look at some sophomores of recent history. You might also want to review exactly how Fitch was off the recruiting radar.

Fitch 760 minutes/248 pts

Crawford 760 minutes/325 pts

Kaz 921 minutes/355 points

Bogans as a soph/and maybe his beststrictly offensiveyear

1051 minutes/577 pts

jr year 879 minutes/371 pts

Will Lavender wrote:
Has he had a big game in his career against a good team?

I'm really asking. I don't think he has. The two best big games he has played, IIRC, have been LSU in Atlanta his freshman year and Louisville at home this past season. In both those games, he didn't come close to an explosion - just a solid all-around game.

Where's Joe's breakout game against a good team? I mean, isn't that why he came to UK? You used Gerald Fitch in your example, but Fitch wasn't even on the recruiting radar. Joe was supposedly the best shooting guard who chose college.

Well, it's a funny thing: by this time in their careers Gerald Fitch was by far the more consistent performer. By far.

And your point about our lack of consistent scorers is right on, I think. This team was full of inconsistent players last season in all facets of the game. But that doesn't exonerate Joe; along with Patrick Sparks and maybe Rondo, he was the most wildly up and down player on the team.

Maybe you're fine with a guy who will come out one night and get 20 points and then the next night not hit a field goal. Fine with me. But you can't convince me that there's not something wrong with that, and that that wrongness is more than likely a confidence issue.

[2bad4u]

Nice post Phoenix, I agree Joe had a good year andis going to have a better year next year.

[blueheretic]

I think it is a matter of confidence and comfort with Crawford. It all goes back to coaching. I won't say anything further or I'll be accused of beating dead horses.

[Stretch]

It also did not help Crawford (or Sparks for that matter) in the half court to watch Rondo dribble and then pass the ball to him out of rhythm with the shot clock expiring to jack up a 25-footer. Everyone will play better on offense when we have a point guard who actually directs the offense and executes the game plan.

[Lost Highway]

Stretch wrote: It also did not help Crawford (or Sparks for that matter) in the half court to watch Rondo dribble and then pass the ball to him out of rhythm with the shot clock expiring to jack up a 25-footer. Everyone will play better on offense when we have a point guard who actually directs the offense and executes the game plan.

Now this is something I can agree with Mr.Stretch on. Oh, how I dream for a real point guard wearing a UK uniform. Good luck Mr Rondo and thank you for leaving us with a chance to bring in a point guard who can and will execute the game plan. Some where outin the wild blue yonder, there is a young man who is destined to do that.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: We could go into tiny details with this argument but check his game by game stats.

Double figures against TN every game.

Double figures against AL X 2

Double figures against SC 3 straight time

games of 19 and 21 against FL

This collection of scoring games seems like he is doing a pretty reasonable job for a sophomore at KY, at least from the scoring side of it. Don't know what more to expect at this point, but next year I would expect him tohave a solid strategy to make use of defenses that key on stopping him. I don't know at this pointwhether he should have that facet fully developed or not.

He could do more and probably will in the future, but I really think he is where he needs to be.

I didn't bring Fitch into the argument did I? You brought Fitch in, I just pointed out that he wasn't all that potent as a sophomore. I don't thinkJoe's performance is off track at this time for his maturity.

BTW it would always be in your best interest when arguing to checkand see if the stats backyour opinion(especially your opinion on Fitch), lets just take a quick look at some sophomores of recent history. You might also want to review exactly how Fitch was off the recruiting radar.

Fitch 760 minutes/248 pts

Crawford 760 minutes/325 pts

Kaz 921 minutes/355 points

Bogans as a soph/and maybe his beststrictly offensiveyear

1051 minutes/577 pts

jr year 879 minutes/371 pts

Will Lavender wrote:
Has he had a big game in his career against a good team?

I'm really asking. I don't think he has. The two best big games he has played, IIRC, have been LSU in Atlanta his freshman year and Louisville at home this past season. In both those games, he didn't come close to an explosion - just a solid all-around game.

Where's Joe's breakout game against a good team? I mean, isn't that why he came to UK? You used Gerald Fitch in your example, but Fitch wasn't even on the recruiting radar. Joe was supposedly the best shooting guard who chose college.

Well, it's a funny thing: by this time in their careers Gerald Fitch was by far the more consistent performer. By far.

And your point about our lack of consistent scorers is right on, I think. This team was full of inconsistent players last season in all facets of the game. But that doesn't exonerate Joe; along with Patrick Sparks and maybe Rondo, he was the most wildly up and down player on the team.

Maybe you're fine with a guy who will come out one night and get 20 points and then the next night not hit a field goal. Fine with me. But you can't convince me that there's not something wrong with that, and that that wrongness is more than likely a confidence issue.


My point about Fitch didn't have to do with points per, thus the qualifier "consistent" in that sentence. I'm not talking about a volume of points there; I don't think Gerald ever had a 20+ point game his sophomore year, and as a matter of fact Joe might have had more of those than Keith Bogans did as a sophomore. I'm talking about those 20 point games followed up with absolute duds AND Joe's disappearance down the stretch of big games.

And that's a point you've yet to address on the thread. I haven't seen you take it on, so I'm assuming you either agree with it or you don't think it's a problem. This has nothing to do with Joe's overall numbers; they were fine, IMO. It has nothing to do with his talent; I think it's considerable. It's a problem of consistency and showing up at the right time. This normally has to do with confidence and knowing your role. Joe's role should have been "the guy we get the ball to when we need a big bucket." He ain't there. Not yet.

I want Joe to be at 15 points a game and to be the guy the ball is thrown to when the game is on the line. When you're a McDonald's All-American and a top 10 player, that's the kind of player you should be.

Taurean Green was that kind of player, Glen Davis was that kind of player, Joakim Noah was, Jordan Farmar was, even Corey Brewer was - all SOPHOMORES.

[Will Lavender]

To be specific, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about:

7 points against Indiana. 7 points against Vanderbilt. 4 points against Georgia. 3 points against Arkansas. 2 points against Vanderbilt. 3 points against LSU. 3 points COMBINED in the NCAA Tournament. 9 meaningless points against Kansas.

All pretty important games for us there, and six of these games we lost.

You don't think there's something lackluster about this, phoenix?

[Lost Highway]

Will Lavender posted:

I want Joe to be at 15 points a game and to be the guy the ball is thrown to when the game is on the line. When you're a McDonald's All-American and a top 10 player, that's the kind of player you should be.

Taurean Green was that kind of player, Glen Davis was that kind of player, Joakim Noah was, Jordan Farmar was, even Corey Brewer was - all SOPHOMORES.

That is so telling. This is a great, great point. I think Joe has as much talent and potential as any of the above mentioned (with the possible exception of Noah) The coach has to find a way to get him in gear or better yet, Joe needs to get himself in gear.I don't want to see us talking about a wasted career in a couple of years. There is no excuse for that.

[Will Lavender]

Actually, Brewer might be a junior now that I think about it. I'd look it up if it weren't Easter and my son weren't eating Tootsie Pops for breakfast. :shock::D

[Lost Highway]

Will Lavender wrote: Actually, Brewer might be a junior now that I think about it. I'd look it up if it weren't Easter and my son weren't eating Tootsie Pops for breakfast. :shock::D

Brewer is a soph and I really like his game. Dang we need somebody like that.

[phoenix]

Will Lavender wrote: phoenix wrote: We could go into tiny details with this argument but check his game by game stats.

Double figures against TN every game.

Double figures against AL X 2

Double figures against SC 3 straight time

games of 19 and 21 against FL

This collection of scoring games seems like he is doing a pretty reasonable job for a sophomore at KY, at least from the scoring side of it. Don't know what more to expect at this point, but next year I would expect him tohave a solid strategy to make use of defenses that key on stopping him. I don't know at this pointwhether he should have that facet fully developed or not.

He could do more and probably will in the future, but I really think he is where he needs to be.

I didn't bring Fitch into the argument did I? You brought Fitch in, I just pointed out that he wasn't all that potent as a sophomore. I don't thinkJoe's performance is off track at this time for his maturity.

BTW it would always be in your best interest when arguing to checkand see if the stats backyour opinion(especially your opinion on Fitch), lets just take a quick look at some sophomores of recent history. You might also want to review exactly how Fitch was off the recruiting radar.

Fitch 760 minutes/248 pts

Crawford 760 minutes/325 pts

Kaz 921 minutes/355 points

Bogans as a soph/and maybe his beststrictly offensiveyear

1051 minutes/577 pts

jr year 879 minutes/371 pts

Will Lavender wrote:
Has he had a big game in his career against a good team?

I'm really asking. I don't think he has. The two best big games he has played, IIRC, have been LSU in Atlanta his freshman year and Louisville at home this past season. In both those games, he didn't come close to an explosion - just a solid all-around game.

Where's Joe's breakout game against a good team? I mean, isn't that why he came to UK? You used Gerald Fitch in your example, but Fitch wasn't even on the recruiting radar. Joe was supposedly the best shooting guard who chose college.

Well, it's a funny thing: by this time in their careers Gerald Fitch was by far the more consistent performer. By far.

And your point about our lack of consistent scorers is right on, I think. This team was full of inconsistent players last season in all facets of the game. But that doesn't exonerate Joe; along with Patrick Sparks and maybe Rondo, he was the most wildly up and down player on the team.

Maybe you're fine with a guy who will come out one night and get 20 points and then the next night not hit a field goal. Fine with me. But you can't convince me that there's not something wrong with that, and that that wrongness is more than likely a confidence issue.


My point about Fitch didn't have to do with points per, thus the qualifier "consistent" in that sentence. I'm not talking about a volume of points there; I don't think Gerald ever had a 20+ point game his sophomore year, and as a matter of fact Joe might have had more of those than Keith Bogans did as a sophomore. I'm talking about those 20 point games followed up with absolute duds AND Joe's disappearance down the stretch of big games.

And that's a point you've yet to address on the thread. I haven't seen you take it on, so I'm assuming you either agree with it or you don't think it's a problem. This has nothing to do with Joe's overall numbers; they were fine, IMO. It has nothing to do with his talent; I think it's considerable. It's a problem of consistency and showing up at the right time. This normally has to do with confidence and knowing your role. Joe's role should have been "the guy we get the ball to when we need a big bucket." He ain't there. Not yet.

I want Joe to be at 15 points a game and to be the guy the ball is thrown to when the game is on the line. When you're a McDonald's All-American and a top 10 player, that's the kind of player you should be.

Taurean Green was that kind of player, Glen Davis was that kind of player, Joakim Noah was, Jordan Farmar was, even Corey Brewer was - all SOPHOMORES.




You keep changing his problem, and you keep supporting your NEW arguments with bad statistical proof.

I meanyouhave called it his facial expression, his confidence, doesn't use his body correctly(sans you)/awkward, his consistency, his point total, and now get gets points at the wrong time and disappears in biggames unlike the Fabulous Fitch as a sophomore. I point out that he has had several good games against NCAA quality teams, and you pull every team he didn't have a good game against to make it seem like he doesn't play good ball nearly as often as he should. Dang, he averaged 20 pts a game against the National Champion, and no he wasn't there every game, but he is doing well and I expect him to improve, and unlike you and some, I don't have theseany missgivings about his game at this point. It will be up and down somewhat as players learn their roles and where the holes are.

I see what you are saying though, that Joe's occassional poor performances are much worse than the sophomore performances of Fitch, a consistent go to guy who made all these big baskets in big games as a sophomore. Once again I think you need to take a good look at your statistics before trying to claim they support your slanted view of reality on Joe.

I guess you could make that point if you ignore THESE Fitch games in his sophomore year, against some of the good teams on our schedule, and consistently strong programs;

North Carolina 1 pt

Indiana 1 pt

MS ST(a better team than this years) 8 pts

Notre Dame(better than this years again) 6 pts

FL 2 pts

NCAA TOURNEY TIME for MR Consistency Fitch

Valpariso 6 pts

Tulsa 3 pts

MARYLAND 0 pts

Now I really don't mind if we have this conversation again next year, and look at where Joe is compared to what you might expect from a JR, and I hope he keeps up to Fitch in his JR year, because I thought Fitch had a nifty year, but I would say Joe is so far, at least as good, if not better than a Fitch, and Joe might be doing better if he was playing Fitch's position instead of the 3.

McDonalds AA may be better than Georgia's player of the year as far as high school assessments go, but they still have to adjust and learn the college game and I think Joe is doing just fine at this point,

[phoenix]

LH, I think we all want one of the players that WL describes, and in fact we want, hey, just 5 of them every year! Put Joe on the floor 30 minutes a game and you have your 15 pts., and I am not worried about Joe's ability to step it up in the future. He might, he might not, but that is not a guarantee on any player, but I'm betting Joe does more and gets better next season.

Of all these players named, Noah did nothing his freshmen year and made great strides this year and has harnessed tremendous athleticism.

Taureen Green was not consistent. LSU didn't go out of the NCAA tourney because Davis could deliver under all circumstances, though he tried mightily, and do Green and Brewer come out with as great a year, without their inside players? Nope, not imo. Check out a whole bunch of MC AA's and top 10's and I think you will find some never do perform, others are pedestrian, some come along rapidly, some come along more slowly and still make a great college career. I don't think there is the need for the handwringing and angst over Joe's performance thus far, I really feel it is on track, and you will see a better player next season and your appraisal of great talent and potential will be even more fully realized.

Lost Highway wrote:
Will Lavender posted:

I want Joe to be at 15 points a game and to be the guy the ball is thrown to when the game is on the line. When you're a McDonald's All-American and a top 10 player, that's the kind of player you should be.

Taurean Green was that kind of player, Glen Davis was that kind of player, Joakim Noah was, Jordan Farmar was, even Corey Brewer was - all SOPHOMORES.

That is so telling. This is a great, great point. I think Joe has as much talent and potential as any of the above mentioned (with the possible exception of Noah) The coach has to find a way to get him in gear or better yet, Joe needs to get himself in gear.I don't want to see us talking about a wasted career in a couple of years. There is no excuse for that.

[Lost Highway]

phoenix, I truly desire and hope everything you say about J.C. comes true. I want him to shine and expect him to shine. He certainly has a gift to play basketball and I want him to show it on the floor, every game.

[T75]

BigblueDrew wrote:
It appears to me our problems are still in Lexington. My prediction is that we will not win the SEC agian until this head case Sophmore class is gone.
Seems to me that we're speculating here that Joe C is the cause of some chemistry problems; it's been obvious from various comments all along, even before the season actually commenced, that Rondo has an ego that was not going to be easily satisfied. Several times his comments toteammates during games were obviously harsh remarks when he thought they did wrong (this ain't leadership). For a long run he simply quit giving the ball to a wide open Sparks on the perimeter. He gets his HS coach involved in his dissatisfaction with Tubby early on and it appeared that Tubby was the one to blink first. So whether or not Joe is a part of the chemistry problems, he certainly wasn't without a lot of help from Rondo

Joe might be quiet and sullen. I don't know. But on the playing floor he appeared to be minding his business and often scoring 12 -15 points so quietly that you hardly noticed. In SEC games through the 2nd S.C. game, Joe was our leading scorer in 6 games, following Morris who was high scorer in 7. Besides, Joe can't be all bad; he looks too much like Marcus McClinton.:lol:

Drew, I won't argue with your point that we won't win an SEC championship until our "super" class of 2004/05 is gone, but that will probably be simply because some other teams in the SEC have better talent for a change--starting with the Gators.

[T75]

Will Lavender wrote:
It might be a time for a Tarzan/Jane crack from Tubby. :D




Too many comments here to be sure who wrote this---I think it was Will.

Interesting thing. When Tubby made that crack publicly about Kelenna I thought it was one of the most dumb-ace moves I'd ever seen from a coach. Here a talented guy without confidence needs some boosting and Tubby blew him away, was my thinking. But it turned out to be apparently just what Azubuike needed to get PO'd and come out fighting.

Of course the coach knows his players better than we outsiders do, so much of our (my) 2nd-guessing is done in great ignorance of the real facts. I reckon we'll just have to wait and see what happens next season with Joe, et al. With three most interesting frosh guards coming in, Tubby won't need to take any crap from any of the players--and he won't IMO.

[DCWildcat]

I think a great deal of whatever Joe's "problem" is can be attribued to playing out of position all year long.

That said, I'm pretty sure he was the most consisent scorer on the team. Note that the answer is not opinion, it's mathematical--st. deviation/game. He is at least more consistent than Rondo and Sparks, and Randolph is hard to include b/c he missed so much of the season vs easy teams.

[DCWildcat]

As far as assistants go, I don't really know a lot. Except that hiring Buzz increases our probability of landing Tyler Smith, whom we desperately need.

IF we gett Buzz and not Smith, I'll be confused. What does he want? A hummer? He's almos a guarenteed starter as a soph., good minues as a frosh, winningestt program in history AND his favorite coach? Don't understand how you could choose Pitt "no round past 2" sburgh

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: Will Lavender wrote: phoenix wrote: We could go into tiny details with this argument but check his game by game stats.

Double figures against TN every game.

Double figures against AL X 2

Double figures against SC 3 straight time

games of 19 and 21 against FL

This collection of scoring games seems like he is doing a pretty reasonable job for a sophomore at KY, at least from the scoring side of it. Don't know what more to expect at this point, but next year I would expect him tohave a solid strategy to make use of defenses that key on stopping him. I don't know at this pointwhether he should have that facet fully developed or not.

He could do more and probably will in the future, but I really think he is where he needs to be.

I didn't bring Fitch into the argument did I? You brought Fitch in, I just pointed out that he wasn't all that potent as a sophomore. I don't thinkJoe's performance is off track at this time for his maturity.

BTW it would always be in your best interest when arguing to checkand see if the stats backyour opinion(especially your opinion on Fitch), lets just take a quick look at some sophomores of recent history. You might also want to review exactly how Fitch was off the recruiting radar.

Fitch 760 minutes/248 pts

Crawford 760 minutes/325 pts

Kaz 921 minutes/355 points

Bogans as a soph/and maybe his beststrictly offensiveyear

1051 minutes/577 pts

jr year 879 minutes/371 pts

Will Lavender wrote:
Has he had a big game in his career against a good team?

I'm really asking. I don't think he has. The two best big games he has played, IIRC, have been LSU in Atlanta his freshman year and Louisville at home this past season. In both those games, he didn't come close to an explosion - just a solid all-around game.

Where's Joe's breakout game against a good team? I mean, isn't that why he came to UK? You used Gerald Fitch in your example, but Fitch wasn't even on the recruiting radar. Joe was supposedly the best shooting guard who chose college.

Well, it's a funny thing: by this time in their careers Gerald Fitch was by far the more consistent performer. By far.

And your point about our lack of consistent scorers is right on, I think. This team was full of inconsistent players last season in all facets of the game. But that doesn't exonerate Joe; along with Patrick Sparks and maybe Rondo, he was the most wildly up and down player on the team.

Maybe you're fine with a guy who will come out one night and get 20 points and then the next night not hit a field goal. Fine with me. But you can't convince me that there's not something wrong with that, and that that wrongness is more than likely a confidence issue.


My point about Fitch didn't have to do with points per, thus the qualifier "consistent" in that sentence. I'm not talking about a volume of points there; I don't think Gerald ever had a 20+ point game his sophomore year, and as a matter of fact Joe might have had more of those than Keith Bogans did as a sophomore. I'm talking about those 20 point games followed up with absolute duds AND Joe's disappearance down the stretch of big games.

And that's a point you've yet to address on the thread. I haven't seen you take it on, so I'm assuming you either agree with it or you don't think it's a problem. This has nothing to do with Joe's overall numbers; they were fine, IMO. It has nothing to do with his talent; I think it's considerable. It's a problem of consistency and showing up at the right time. This normally has to do with confidence and knowing your role. Joe's role should have been "the guy we get the ball to when we need a big bucket." He ain't there. Not yet.

I want Joe to be at 15 points a game and to be the guy the ball is thrown to when the game is on the line. When you're a McDonald's All-American and a top 10 player, that's the kind of player you should be.

Taurean Green was that kind of player, Glen Davis was that kind of player, Joakim Noah was, Jordan Farmar was, even Corey Brewer was - all SOPHOMORES.




You keep changing his problem, and you keep supporting your NEW arguments with bad statistical proof.

I meanyouhave called it his facial expression, his confidence, doesn't use his body correctly(sans you)/awkward, his consistency, his point total, and now get gets points at the wrong time and disappears in biggames unlike the Fabulous Fitch as a sophomore. I point out that he has had several good games against NCAA quality teams, and you pull every team he didn't have a good game against to make it seem like he doesn't play good ball nearly as often as he should. Dang, he averaged 20 pts a game against the National Champion, and no he wasn't there every game, but he is doing well and I expect him to improve, and unlike you and some, I don't have theseany missgivings about his game at this point. It will be up and down somewhat as players learn their roles and where the holes are.

I see what you are saying though, that Joe's occassional poor performances are much worse than the sophomore performances of Fitch, a consistent go to guy who made all these big baskets in big games as a sophomore. Once again I think you need to take a good look at your statistics before trying to claim they support your slanted view of reality on Joe.

I guess you could make that point if you ignore THESE Fitch games in his sophomore year, against some of the good teams on our schedule, and consistently strong programs;

North Carolina 1 pt

Indiana 1 pt

MS ST(a better team than this years) 8 pts

Notre Dame(better than this years again) 6 pts

FL 2 pts

NCAA TOURNEY TIME for MR Consistency Fitch

Valpariso 6 pts

Tulsa 3 pts

MARYLAND 0 pts

Now I really don't mind if we have this conversation again next year, and look at where Joe is compared to what you might expect from a JR, and I hope he keeps up to Fitch in his JR year, because I thought Fitch had a nifty year, but I would say Joe is so far, at least as good, if not better than a Fitch, and Joe might be doing better if he was playing Fitch's position instead of the 3.

McDonalds AA may be better than Georgia's player of the year as far as high school assessments go, but they still have to adjust and learn the college game and I think Joe is doing just fine at this point,

I'm not changing his problem. I said at the very beginning of the thread that Joe didn't show up when we needed him to, i.e. in March. I sort of extrapolated that disappearance backwards through the season and made the point that, hey, Joe really hasn't shown up when we needed him all year long.

And, as I pointed out, that's a confidence issue.

And confidence issues can usually be seen in on-court "gestures," thus my observation of Randolph Morris grabbing Joe after he missed that big three against USC.

And gestures can sometimes be seen in the face and body, thus my point about sitting close to him in practice.

And confidence issues can sometimes make one misconstrue his role on the team, and so I made the point about Joe saying, you know, and I don't know if it can get any more blunt than this, "People on this team don't know their roles." (That's almost an exact quote.)

And not knowing one's role can make a guy frustrated, thus I cited Joe, you know, leaving the team for a short time last year.

I've tried to be consistent (pun there) in the thread.

I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing. Joe comes up, but he doesn't come up BIG. The Gerald Fitch comparison, again, was not to say that Gerald performed better. Gerald was a completely different player than Joe early in his career, as you yourself pointed out early in this thread. I just want to suggest that what you thought you would get from Gerald as a sophomore (defense and rebounding), you normally got. I heard Tubby once say of a freshman Gerald Fitch, "He's the best on the ball defender I've ever coached." Not necessarily praise you would think you'd hear about Joe Crawford.

And hey, if you're content with a 12-loss (or was it 13?) season, then that's fine. But I'm not. I think we deserve answers to a season like that, and the answers are not just from the head coach. The star players must also answer to it. There's a REASON a team like Kentucky goes through such a pathetic season, and it isn't just the guys in suits at the end of the bench; it's the players themselves.

Where's their blame in our awful season?

[Will Lavender]

One more thing:

Phoenix wrote:

I see what you are saying though, that Joe's occassional poor performances are much worse than the sophomore performances of Fitch.

That's NOT what I'm saying.

I've tried to clarify three times now exactly what I am trying to do with the Fitch/Crawford comparison, and you've yet to get it.

As I said above, you knew what you were going to get with Gerald Fitch as a sophomore. He wasn't going to score a lot, but he was going to bring stiff defense and solid rebounding from the perimeter every night.

Can you say what Joe Crawford brought consistently? I'll wait while you think about that.

And, like DCWildcat says, I think some of Joe's issues this year were due to his playing out of position. He couldn't come close to guarding some of those bigger people. And he may not have been healthy all year long. But you can't convince me that that boy doesn't have a confidence problem and that he he has MUCH more offensive talent than the 10 points he put up for a middle-of-the-pack SEC team.

[poodoo]

DonnieKat wrote:

Joe made some comments to the media after the UConn game. I can't remember his exact words, but he called some folks out on the rebounding responsibilities @ the end of the game when UConn got all of those offensive boards.


Exactly. I read the article in the CJ, I believe it was, and the writer even commented that this was the same Joe Crawford who had done nothing himselfin the UCONN game, something about his pointing fingers at teammates and not himself, FWIW.Thus, there is no doubt that May was speakingabout Crawford's teammates' not liking that they had been "bashed" by Crawford.Let's just hopeCrawfordapologized and all was resolved, as he had beenplaying reallywell before the NCAA tourney, and we need him and hisreturning teammatesfeeling like family and playing as a TEAM next season.

No,this one cannot be blamed on Rondo.Actually, ifit had been Rondo's bashing of teammates, there would no problemsince Rondo is not returning.:cool:Actually, there have never been any specific anti-Rondo comments from any players, just the opposite, many of which I havequoted.Fans have manufactured some contrasting scenarios, though. Perhaps there were some problems with Rondo, but, again, the actualevidence has not beenthere.

Again, in regard to Crawford, I just hope he and whatever players that wereoffended "make up," which I expect will happen.I thinkCrawford's a good guy and a good player who should only get better.

[phoenix]

You keep makingarguments that have questionable statisfical proof to back them up. First it was about points, and being a point producer but now somehow Will Lavender has come up with the idea that it is not about points. I think the idea that it was not about points came up as soon as I brought up Fitch's comparable missing offensive games againstbetter opponenets. Never get any concession that yes, as sophomores Joe is doing a job comparable to a solid player like Fitch. Nope, now we try to claim Fitch wasbetter becasuse of unmeasurable traits, like rebounding and defending. Of course, we can check rebounding, and note easily that Crawford as a sophomore exceeded the rebounds of Fitch in bothhis JR and SR season(Crawford must be a bugger on the boards to outperform a great player on the boards like Fitch). C'mon.

You really need to make points that fit the evidence a little better. Every team is different in makeup. Crawforddid what I consider a good job filling his role on this one and stands todo better in the future. I think he is about where he should be for a great player in his sophomoreyear. All this constant speculation about players based on some fans interpretation of a look or body language may fill the time well in the off season but it really gets off the mark about players at times. Will Lavender wrote:
One more thing:

Phoenix wrote:

I see what you are saying though, that Joe's occassional poor performances are much worse than the sophomore performances of Fitch.

That's NOT what I'm saying.

I've tried to clarify three times now exactly what I am trying to do with the Fitch/Crawford comparison, and you've yet to get it.

As I said above, you knew what you were going to get with Gerald Fitch as a sophomore. He wasn't going to score a lot, but he was going to bring stiff defense and solid rebounding from the perimeter every night.

Can you say what Joe Crawford brought consistently? I'll wait while you think about that.

And, like DCWildcat says, I think some of Joe's issues this year were due to his playing out of position. He couldn't come close to guarding some of those bigger people. And he may not have been healthy all year long. But you can't convince me that that boy doesn't have a confidence problem and that he he has MUCH more offensive talent than the 10 points he put up for a middle-of-the-pack SEC team.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: You keep makingarguments that have questionable statisfical proof to back them up. First it was about points, and being a point producer but now somehow Will Lavender has come up with the idea that it is not about points. I think the idea that it was not about points came up as soon as I brought up Fitch's comparable missing offensive games againstbetter opponenets. Never get any concession that yes, as sophomores Joe is doing a job comparable to a solid player like Fitch. Nope, now we try to claim Fitch wasbetter becasuse of unmeasurable traits, like rebounding and defending. Of course, we can check rebounding, and note easily that Crawford as a sophomore exceeded the rebounds of Fitch in bothhis JR and SR season(Crawford must be a bugger on the boards to outperform a great player on the boards like Fitch). C'mon.

You really need to make points that fit the evidence a little better. Every team is different in makeup. Crawforddid what I consider a good job filling his role on this one and stands todo better in the future. I think he is about where he should be for a great player in his sophomoreyear. All this constant speculation about players based on some fans interpretation of a look or body language may fill the time well in the off season but it really gets off the mark about players at times. Will Lavender wrote:
One more thing:

Phoenix wrote:

I see what you are saying though, that Joe's occassional poor performances are much worse than the sophomore performances of Fitch.

That's NOT what I'm saying.

I've tried to clarify three times now exactly what I am trying to do with the Fitch/Crawford comparison, and you've yet to get it.

As I said above, you knew what you were going to get with Gerald Fitch as a sophomore. He wasn't going to score a lot, but he was going to bring stiff defense and solid rebounding from the perimeter every night.

Can you say what Joe Crawford brought consistently? I'll wait while you think about that.

And, like DCWildcat says, I think some of Joe's issues this year were due to his playing out of position. He couldn't come close to guarding some of those bigger people. And he may not have been healthy all year long. But you can't convince me that that boy doesn't have a confidence problem and that he he has MUCH more offensive talent than the 10 points he put up for a middle-of-the-pack SEC team.


Once again. I'm talking about CONSISTENCY. I've said (and now this is the third time) that what you thought you would get from Fitch, you got. I NEVER, ever remember complaining about a lack of consistency from Gerald.

But there's this:

Gerald wasn't the talent Joe is. He didn't have the size or the strength.

And that's what disappoints me about Joe. He has the skills to be more than a 10 per game guy on a team that sucked.

(And surely you're smart enough to know that you can't bring rebounding statistics into this. Joe's a forward; Gerald was a guard. Come on, phoenix.)

And again, I take it you're fine with a 12-loss season. (13?) I'm not. I think it's normal, and REQUISITE, to point fingers at these guys. You seem to just diddle along with the attitude that, you know, if a guy gets 3 total points in the NCAA Tournament, that's fine. If a guy scores 10 points a game as a sophomore when he was a top 10 player in his class, that's fine. If a guy has a string of single-digit scoring games, including games when he couldn't muster a field goal, that's fine.

It ISN'T fine.

That's the argument.

This team was frigging PUTRID, from the players to the coaches.

Whose fault?

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: WWH Mustaine wrote: T75 wrote: Just looking thru the latest issue of The Cats' Pause and there's an interesting article by Matt May who is no Larry Vaught by any means but he is more in the know than I am. Matt addresses some of the current rumors with three parts: What we hear, what we know and what we predict.

Some of them go like this:

Scott Rigot: Rumors persist that Tubby is trying to place him so that he can shake up his staff. We know recruiting hasn't been up to UK standards and someone has to take the blame. We predict that Rigot will be somewhere else before too long and Buzz Peterson will replace him on Tubby's staff.

Reggie: Rumor has it that he tried to get considered for the Murray job. What we know is that now would probably be a good time for a change of scenery for him since he's interested in moving up the ladder. Predict thatTubby won't push him out, but if an opportunity arises, Tubby will let him move along with his blessings.

Crawford: We hear that he was practically out the door immediately after the tournament (in which he was a no-show) but has since calmed down. We know (and this I don't understand--and would like to know if others understand what he means) "Crawford's lost weekend in the tournament and subsequent teammate bashing likely didn't sit well in the locker room". Who was bashing whom is what I don't know. We predict that since his reputation would take a serious hit if he left now, he'll hang around and blossom next year like Kelenna did.

Obrzut:Condensed version---he's not lived up to his hype, probably won't get much better, can graduate at mid term and may go to Europe for pro ball. (IMO, I'd like to see him go so Carter can get some early PT behind Morris.)

Bradley: Rumored at one time or another to be going to about every east coast school--mostly St Johns in his hometown. We know that he's been in and out of Tubby's dog house all along but predict that with Rondo gone, he knows he'll have big time PT so he'll stay. (And, IMO again, I think he'll get serious and play more soundly and consistently when he becomes "the man".)

Sims: He's been rumored to leave as much as anyone on the team. We know his play deteriorated steadily all of last season after a very good start. Since he only has a single season remaining it's hard to believe that he'll leave. But then if he couldn't make it onto the court last year, what chance would he have this year? Logical thinking has him packing his bags. (I hope not; he should get at least as much PT as Stevenson.)

Lots more to happen before the repercussions of the 2005/2006 season are finished. We'll see.

Matt did say that Tubby ain't leavin'. I agree.
I knew several of the players were unhappy, but still.

That's some depressing stuff.

So Tubby wants to make changes on the staff, but he won't do so unless he can be assured that his assistants have jobs lined up first? Unbelievable. Give them good references, give them a nice severance package, give them names and numbers to call, but good God, Tubby. Do your job. Make sure we're in the best possible position to win basketball games. This is Kentucky basketball, not a freaking day care.

Absolutely ridiculous.

This has been gone over on the other board by Matt May himself. (And by Jeff Drummond.)

We want to blame some of these problems on the assistants. But Tubby himself should take some of the blame, and has. Why would he throw his assistants under the bus by firing them and then just go on about his own business?

All these assistants have been part of winning teams in the past. It's not like it has been three years of utter mediocrity since Scott Rigot showed up in Lexington. I don't think it's so easy where we can just fire somebody and everything is okay. Tubby may feel like some of the methods of the staff may change - like how they break down film, their summer routines, and so on (he spoke about these things on the last BBL of the year) - and that might be a quicker way to righting the ship than just kicking people to the curb.
Why should/would he "throw his assitants under the bus?" Because he won't throw himself under the bus. There have to be some major changes. The biggenst concern, of course, is with recruiting. Fixing that problem will lead to significant improvment. Overall though, Tubby needs a staff that is more organized and focused on player development and getting the team to mesh. This year is not the first year these problems have been evident, it's just the worst year.

[RaleighCat]

BigblueDrew wrote: It appears to me our problems are still in Lexington. My prediction is that we will not win the SEC agian until this head case Sophmore class is gone.
I hope this is not the case, truly. Our sophomore class represents Tubby's best overall recruiting effort in 9 seasons (in terms of talent and potential coming in). If the class goes down as a failure, then what will Tubby's reaction be? Will he stop recruiting McD's AA players? Will he stop chasing kids like Morris and Rondo who plan to play in the NBA sooner-than-later? Will he let kids like Crawford disapear the second something goes wrong?

We've tried to win a national championship with rosters full of complimentary players and kids that surpassed expectations. We've come close that way. We'veseen what happens when Tubby Smith focuses solely on those recruits (our current juniors and freshman). It takes more than one or two NBA-caliber players to make the Final Four and win National Championships. We can't let the Prince/Bogans/Rondo type player be the anomoly at UK.

[phoenix]

You make unwarranted pronouncements on this board about basketball and then you flip into theseprotracted, strawman arguments and start shifting your arguments when they are refuted so as to try and defend your basketball expert self image. Early on when you suggest that anyone not sharing your point of view is less than an idiot, it becomes clear that you have a large piece of ego tied into your pronouncements, and that in the face of being questioned, even denigrating your opponent is not beneath you and is indeed part of your method. Arguing with you is like trying to step on a live weasel.

You start out with the claim of facial expressions/body language(and btw Ibelieve you have postedchastising and disagreeing with other posters for body language and facial expressions postsin the past, true?) Thenit becomes a consistency argumenttied inwith confidence issues(brought up by the body language?). It is shown that youroffensive consistency argument using comparison to Fitch is full of holes. When Fitch's performance in big games and the NCAA tourney isbrought to the fore, it is quietly never mentioned by you again as you shift your claim to subjectivemeasurements, which you support by your own pronouncements as proof(because YOU never remember YOU "complaining about a lack of consistency from Gerald", even though it was right there in the stat sheets if you had any prejudicial feelings about Gerald").

You make a statement like this "(And surely you're smart enough to know that you can't bring rebounding statistics into this. Joe's a forward; Gerald was a guard. Come on, phoenix.)",and the funny thing about this is thatit follows a statement like this one, "As I said above, you knew what you were going to get with Gerald Fitch as a sophomore. He wasn't going to score a lot, but he was going to bring stiff defense and solid rebounding from the perimeter every night." AND THIS ONE!, "And, like DCWildcat says, I think some of Joe's issues this year were due to his playing out of position. He couldn't come close to guarding some of those bigger people".Funny stuff indeed, say you can't compare them right after stating that Joe was playing out of position, and the position he should have been playing the TWO GUARD, and that I can't bring rebounding statistics into this, right after you bring "consistent rebounding" into the argument. BTW,if you check the stats you will find that Fitch the rebounder DECLINED EVERY YEAR OF HIS COLLEGE CAREER, and was remarkably pedestrian his JR and SR seasons(or did I mention that?), hardly a picture of consistencyin my book,but maybe for you, and that Fitch the Defender had less steals per minute than that all time KY great, SaulSmith, but I know you will try and tell me those numbers are not significant either. Fact of the matter is Joe had a pretty decent sophomore season at 19 years of age, and he improved from his freshman year, and I thought he was prettyconsistent and on pace as a sophomore player.You try and lock Joe intoperforming up to the assesssments others have made,and your own personal pronouncement on his talent and body, and then try and claim that he is thus and thussuperior physicallyto aFitch(whohas signed an NBA contract, was the Georgia player of the year and had significant achievements in his college career) and thus should be outperforming him by at least a leap or a bound at this point in his college years. FirstYOU create the standard and thenYOU diss him for not reaching it.

And myspecific entry into this thread was about Joe getting nailed for facial expressions and then it went from there, most of it,your own creation to try andback your precariouslybased arguments about him. You go back to the denigration argument in the end, when you accuse me of being "diddling",DANG!!!Neverdiddled, never will diddle, lol. Andtry and impugn my fandom here by trying to create a subgroup of "happy with a below average season", but that certainly is not justified by anything I have ever put on this board. I am happy with the way the season turned around toward the end, and I am satisfied with Joe's performance this year, I wouldgive him somewhere around a B- for his improvement and performance in major college basketball. I am not theone that rated himwhile he was in high school and only have his performance last year to serve as a base of judgement for this years games. I am satisfied. As for the season itself, 20 wins, NCAA berth, inprobably the strongest ranked conference at the end of the year and home of two final four teams, NCAA win and then a loss to a #1 seed in the last 60 seconds? Reasonable to me and I am used to moreas a KY fan, but to expect more every single year without a missed dribble or dropped ball at some point seems rather unrealistic.

I haveread your posts on other threads and you seem tobe situationallyok or not ok with this season dependingon whatpoint of view you are trying to argue. I see now that your take on the team and season nowis"friggin putrid, awful, and pathetic", and that your current views are somewhat more immoderate than some of your earlier views. I have been very consistent in that I believe, that this team is reasonable within a string of 9 seasons under one coach, and that no, I don't want this team to become the norm but I don't freak out about one season when looking at our history, and our historyunder the current coach. Maybeyou ARE one of those fans I have been arguing with about the expectations and unreasonable standards some fans demand. Maybe that IS you behind some of those posts.

I am not particularly upset with your tactics here, and in fact I probably use them myself if allowed to, but I am tired of this particular discussion, and would ask you in the future if you want to make these pronouncements, on players, at least have thelogical or statistical arguments to back them up. Failing to have those, be a superior moral being and admit you are a BS king like the rest of us, and sometimes you saw the limb off behind you!;)

Will Lavender wrote:
Once again. I'm talking about CONSISTENCY. I've said (and now this is the third time) that what you thought you would get from Fitch, you got. I NEVER, ever remember complaining about a lack of consistency from Gerald.

But there's also this:

Gerald wasn't the talent Joe is. He didn't have the size or the strength.

And that's what disappoints me about Joe. He has the skills to be more than a 10 per game guy on a team that sucked.

(And surely you're smart enough to know that you can't bring rebounding statistics into this. Joe's a forward; Gerald was a guard. Come on, phoenix.) "

And again, I take it you're fine with a 12-loss season. (13?) I'm not. I think it's normal, and REQUISITE, to point fingers at these guys. You seem to just diddle along with the attitude that, you know, if a guy gets 3 total points in the NCAA Tournament, that's fine. If a guy scores 10 points a game as a sophomore when he was a top 10 player in his class, that's fine. If a guy has a string of single-digit scoring games, including games when he couldn't muster a field goal, that's fine.

It ISN'T fine.

That's the argument.

This team was frigging PUTRID, from the players to the coaches.

Whose fault?

[RCS]

I thought Joe improved a lot his SO year and looks to have a promising future. I think he is starting to mature and in his JR and SR years I think he will be solid and possibly fantastic. On his HS teams he had an equally talent running mate with him so I am sure that took some of the pressure off of him. I do not think Crawford liked Rondo. I am just guessing, but they never seemed to like each other. Maybe Crawford didn't like the way he played, maybe he didn't like his attitude, hell maybe he did like him. I think Crawford and Morris will both have excellent years next year.

As for Buddah saying he wanted to get rid of everyone, the problem with that is you don't know they will be a problem. Bogans was clearly part of the attitude problem for Team Turmoil but the next year was not only fantastic but wasthe clear leader of the team. I have no idea if Crawford will do the same, but it would suprise me. Kids change a lot in college and sometime a year makes all the difference in the world. It is not like he is getting in trouble or anything, so I think the best bet is to hope it all works out. If it doesn't you bench him and if he is still disruptive you kick him off the team. I seriously doubt it will come to that though.

[T75]

poodoo wrote:
.....Again, in regard to Crawford, I just hope he and whatever players that wereoffended "make up," which I expect will happen.I thinkCrawford's a good guy and a good player who should only get better.




When Joe left and went home to Detroit for a while during his frosh season, it was being reported that his mates welcomed him back with open arms when he returned. If he'd been a pain in the butt I doubt that they'd have done this. So I'm thinking that for the most part Joe gets along with the others.

From what several have said here, I'm thinking Joe probably was terribly frustrated with himself for doing no better than he did in this highly visible opportunity---the NCAA tournament---and was taking it out of his friends. (I think we all try to find excuses when we flounder and don't do things as well as we know we can.) I hope the team doesn't take the whole off-season to let these bad feelings fester and grow worse.

Let's hope that Tubby is close enough to the situation to work on it rather than just to threaten that people won't be here next season if things don't change. IMO, running people off is the easy way out and not the best solution to many problems. I'd like to see the staff use some people-managing skills and get this situation cleared up before it gets worse. If I were an 18 year old player I'd surely not want to walk into a situation where there is no harmony and playing becomes a chore.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: You make unwarranted pronouncements on this board about basketball and then you flip into theseprotracted, strawman arguments and start shifting your arguments when they are refuted so as to try and defend your basketball expert self image. Early on when you suggest that anyone not sharing your point of view is less than an idiot, it becomes clear that you have a large piece of ego tied into your pronouncements, and that in the face of being questioned, even denigrating your opponent is not beneath you and is indeed part of your method. Arguing with you is like trying to step on a live weasel.

You start out with the claim of facial expressions/body language(and btw Ibelieve you have postedchastising and disagreeing with other posters for body language and facial expressions postsin the past, true?) Thenit becomes a consistency argumenttied inwith confidence issues(brought up by the body language?). It is shown that youroffensive consistency argument using comparison to Fitch is full of holes. When Fitch's performance in big games and the NCAA tourney isbrought to the fore, it is quietly never mentioned by you again as you shift your claim to subjectivemeasurements, which you support by your own pronouncements as proof(because YOU never remember YOU "complaining about a lack of consistency from Gerald", even though it was right there in the stat sheets if you had any prejudicial feelings about Gerald").

You make a statement like this "(And surely you're smart enough to know that you can't bring rebounding statistics into this. Joe's a forward; Gerald was a guard. Come on, phoenix.)",and the funny thing about this is thatit follows a statement like this one, "As I said above, you knew what you were going to get with Gerald Fitch as a sophomore. He wasn't going to score a lot, but he was going to bring stiff defense and solid rebounding from the perimeter every night." AND THIS ONE!, "And, like DCWildcat says, I think some of Joe's issues this year were due to his playing out of position. He couldn't come close to guarding some of those bigger people".Funny stuff indeed, say you can't compare them right after stating that Joe was playing out of position, and the position he should have been playing the TWO GUARD, and that I can't bring rebounding statistics into this, right after you bring "consistent rebounding" into the argument. BTW,if you check the stats you will find that Fitch the rebounder DECLINED EVERY YEAR OF HIS COLLEGE CAREER, and was remarkably pedestrian his JR and SR seasons(or did I mention that?), hardly a picture of consistencyin my book,but maybe for you, and that Fitch the Defender had less steals per minute than that all time KY great, SaulSmith, but I know you will try and tell me those numbers are not significant either. Fact of the matter is Joe had a pretty decent sophomore season at 19 years of age, and he improved from his freshman year, and I thought he was prettyconsistent and on pace as a sophomore player.You try and lock Joe intoperforming up to the assesssments others have made,and your own personal pronouncement on his talent and body, and then try and claim that he is thus and thussuperior physicallyto aFitch(whohas signed an NBA contract, was the Georgia player of the year and had significant achievements in his college career) and thus should be outperforming him by at least a leap or a bound at this point in his college years. FirstYOU create the standard and thenYOU diss him for not reaching it.

And myspecific entry into this thread was about Joe getting nailed for facial expressions and then it went from there, most of it,your own creation to try andback your precariouslybased arguments about him. You go back to the denigration argument in the end, when you accuse me of being "diddling",DANG!!!Neverdiddled, never will diddle, lol. Andtry and impugn my fandom here by trying to create a subgroup of "happy with a below average season", but that certainly is not justified by anything I have ever put on this board. I am happy with the way the season turned around toward the end, and I am satisfied with Joe's performance this year, I wouldgive him somewhere around a B- for his improvement and performance in major college basketball. I am not theone that rated himwhile he was in high school and only have his performance last year to serve as a base of judgement for this years games. I am satisfied. As for the season itself, 20 wins, NCAA berth, inprobably the strongest ranked conference at the end of the year and home of two final four teams, NCAA win and then a loss to a #1 seed in the last 60 seconds? Reasonable to me and I am used to moreas a KY fan, but to expect more every single year without a missed dribble or dropped ball at some point seems rather unrealistic.

I haveread your posts on other threads and you seem tobe situationallyok or not ok with this season dependingon whatpoint of view you are trying to argue. I see now that your take on the team and season nowis"friggin putrid, awful, and pathetic", and that your current views are somewhat more immoderate than some of your earlier views. I have been very consistent in that I believe, that this team is reasonable within a string of 9 seasons under one coach, and that no, I don't want this team to become the norm but I don't freak out about one season when looking at our history, and our historyunder the current coach. Maybeyou ARE one of those fans I have been arguing with about the expectations and unreasonable standards some fans demand. Maybe that IS you behind some of those posts.

I am not particularly upset with your tactics here, and in fact I probably use them myself if allowed to, but I am tired of this particular discussion, and would ask you in the future if you want to make these pronouncements, on players, at least have thelogical or statistical arguments to back them up. Failing to have those, be a superior moral being and admit you are a BS king like the rest of us, and sometimes you saw the limb off behind you!;)

Will Lavender wrote:
Once again. I'm talking about CONSISTENCY. I've said (and now this is the third time) that what you thought you would get from Fitch, you got. I NEVER, ever remember complaining about a lack of consistency from Gerald.

But there's also this:

Gerald wasn't the talent Joe is. He didn't have the size or the strength.

And that's what disappoints me about Joe. He has the skills to be more than a 10 per game guy on a team that sucked.

(And surely you're smart enough to know that you can't bring rebounding statistics into this. Joe's a forward; Gerald was a guard. Come on, phoenix.) "

And again, I take it you're fine with a 12-loss season. (13?) I'm not. I think it's normal, and REQUISITE, to point fingers at these guys. You seem to just diddle along with the attitude that, you know, if a guy gets 3 total points in the NCAA Tournament, that's fine. If a guy scores 10 points a game as a sophomore when he was a top 10 player in his class, that's fine. If a guy has a string of single-digit scoring games, including games when he couldn't muster a field goal, that's fine.

It ISN'T fine.

That's the argument.

This team was frigging PUTRID, from the players to the coaches.

Whose fault?



Hey, I'm just looking for answers.

WHO should answer to it, phoenix?

You suggest that I'm inconsistent.Maybe so. Sometimes I get more irate than atother times thinking about the piss poor season we just had. But Ithink I've been consistent in that I don't want Tubby fired; he should, though,answer to our problems. Shouldn't he?

And not only him. Patrick Sparks, Rajon Rondo, Randolph Morris, and Joe Crawford, too. Our best players. The players should take some of the blame, especially if they have a wealth of talent (which Crawford does), and especially if they are prone to disappear (which Crawford is), and especially if they do not come through like they should have (which Crawford didn't).

I think it needs to be expressed, again, how bad this team was. I said early in the season that I thought Crawford could be the scorer for this team; I posted early in the season that I would like to see him at 15 points per and be the offensive leader.

It didn't happen. Crawford's 10 points per game needs to be really controlled for an important variable, i.e. our ineptitude. What would Crawford have done - what COULD Crawford have done - for a good basketball team?

I saw Joe Crawford overmatched in the grossest possible way in Lawrence, Kansas.

That won't set. Maybe with you it will. But not with me. A guy likeJoe, touted as he was coming out of high school, must do better than that.

This was, except for a short time in February, a baaaaaaad basketball team. The worst I've seen since Eddie Sutton. Worse than Pitino's first team. Horribly, awfully bad.

Who answers to that?

Don't we deserve reasons?

Well, because they're not going to be offered up to us, obviously, we can then dive in analytically and look for them.

And one of the reasons was the disappearance of Joe Crawfordbecause (IMO), at least in part, he suffers from confidence issues.

Joe isn't alone. Rajon sucked a lot of the time. Patrick did. Randolph did. And on down. It was a collective sucking, and when that happens I think the players who have the most talent and ability should be called out first.

These players have no room - NO ROOM - to bash anybody.If they want to bash, they can look in the mirror.

[ukbob]

JC is flat out INCONSISTENT....period. He has all of the talent in the world. He is a great athlete. However, for whatever reason, his game is only there about 20% of the time and not in big games.

Could be his position, could be the coach, could be his attitude. Who knows? Who cares? All I know is that we would be a lot better if he played strong EVERY GAME and when his shot isn't falling, he plays defense, or makes plays with passes or rebounds. He just has not done any of this in a consistent manner. The kid has AA written on him and it is up to him to show it. I love his game, when he really plays it.

I said before that I would not be surprised if he left this year. Still wouldn't, and if he had not bolted after 12 games last year, I think he definitely would.

Crawford is just another enigma in the puzzle that is UK basketball. A seemingly unhappy player, playing perhaps, out of position, on a team loaded with potential and little desire and practically no pride and heart. All I say to Joe is that you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Which is it?

And forall the Coach Smith detractors/haters/lovers/apologists/bashers/kool-aid drinkers/blue shade wearers/homersthat think I am player bashing...I say the same thing toOTS as well. He is inconsistent also and is the biggest part of the enigma. Time for him to fix it or name a successor that can.

Just my opinion.

[RaleighCat]

ukbob wrote: Crawford is just another enigma in the puzzle that is UK basketball. A seemingly unhappy player, playing perhaps, out of position, on a team loaded with potential and little desire and practically no pride and heart. All I say to Joe is that you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Which is it?

And forall the Coach Smith detractors/haters/lovers/apologists/bashers/kool-aid drinkers/blue shade wearers/homersthat think I am player bashing...I say the same thing toOTS as well. He is inconsistent also and is the biggest part of the enigma. Time for him to fix it or name a successor that can.

Just my opinion.

The sound you can't hear is me clapping. Here, here! Amen.

[Chunks06]

:thumbupukbob wrote: JC is flat out INCONSISTENT....period. He has all of the talent in the world. He is a great athlete. However, for whatever reason, his game is only there about 20% of the time and not in big games.

Could be his position, could be the coach, could be his attitude. Who knows? Who cares? All I know is that we would be a lot better if he played strong EVERY GAME and when his shot isn't falling, he plays defense, or makes plays with passes or rebounds. He just has not done any of this in a consistent manner. The kid has AA written on him and it is up to him to show it. I love his game, when he really plays it.

I said before that I would not be surprised if he left this year. Still wouldn't, and if he had not bolted after 12 games last year, I think he definitely would.

Crawford is just another enigma in the puzzle that is UK basketball. A seemingly unhappy player, playing perhaps, out of position, on a team loaded with potential and little desire and practically no pride and heart. All I say to Joe is that you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Which is it?

And forall the Coach Smith detractors/haters/lovers/apologists/bashers/kool-aid drinkers/blue shade wearers/homersthat think I am player bashing...I say the same thing toOTS as well. He is inconsistent also and is the biggest part of the enigma. Time for him to fix it or name a successor that can.

Just my opinion.


:thumbup:thumbupNIce post. Clean slate this season. No excuses for last season but I think a clean slate will help. Hopefully Crawfords knee will be 100%, Morris will hopefully be rady all year and improve the same amount that he did from Fr to So. he could be a beast.

Problem: Who can be this teams leader. IF we have one I think we have a great season. IF we dont I think we are going to be in toruble again. Im not speaking leading scorer or big time player Im talking leader who makes all players and the team much better. Morris will have a great season I think. Crawford should as well. Hopefully Perry can continue the feed off his great tourney. I believe the leader will be played by the point, whether it be Jasper or Bradley. To me Bradley has the heart and vocals. Jasper seems to have a special head on his shoulders. We need one to step up this year and lead.

[ukbob]

The team leader cannot be just a talker. Moss was clearly the talking leader last year, but his game went totally south when he was put in the starting rotation. It takes more than talking to the press, it takes getting it done on the court. This is why Hayes was so good. He talked it and went out and took it on his shoulders and produced more times than not.

We have no leader per se, IMO. Bradley has the mouth for it and the game(possibly). And having a Frosh be the leader will likely upset the applecart once again with our seemingly sensitive (now) JR class. The other candidate is Perry. If he continues his fine play from the NCAAs, he could definitely be it.

Court leadership will be another big issue next season, IMO. I just don't see enough maturity mixed with the talent. Hope I am wrong.

[phoenix]

Pointed out before what he did this year, and that he was in several big games including 40 pts in 2 games against national champion FL. In games where he was played 20 minutes, 24 he scored in double figures 16 times 67%, and frankly with the team wide breakdowns going on, I think that is pretty good. Held his own on defense even though out of position and a couple inches short, and imo, even though he has great hops he is a step slow against some of the small forwards he faced or was defended by(GAY being one of them) and he didn't have the hops KAZ had when bringing it inside. Some of those teams were better because they had better personel matching up against us, and Crawford being out of position may have been one of those favorable or better than equal matchups against us. I didn't see very many 2guards that I though would over match JC. I don't really like little guards and Sparks in the game allowed everybody to shift height to Crawford, but that is just my opinon.

Bob for this thread you claim he has AA written all over him, I say he is slightly slow and a little short when he has to play the 3, and hey, that affects his consistency(which I still feel is coming along fine for a soph, I expect a higher level as a JR).

Your take on the 04 class being overrated must not include Joe if you feel he has AA written all over him.

"We had a seemingly great 04 class(overrated, IMO, but still great on paper),"

and realistically it is clear in this quote that you understand, though players may benefit by their rankings when it comes to getting schollies, they still have to get out on the court, and you may be slightly piqued at Joe for his history at KY but if he WAS overrated, he will have a hard time meeting the expectations of fans that buy into that original rating, I guess I don't because I don't have the slightest idea who is out there until they get here, but I definitely agree with your quote here,

"players have to perform just like ours have to perform. Rankings are nice, but the rubber meets the road when they put on the uniform, IMO."

I want to see Joe out on the perimeter with some additional height and firepower on his sides this year. I think that alone will do much to improve your perception of his overall game, and he may actually be playing better while scoring less, or he may be the big gun, don't know.

So I guess I don't agree with your perception of his showing up only20% of the time and not inbig games, so muchas I feel he is where he should be and that he has an upside.There are several players in recent UK history that reallyexcelled and solidified their game as they got older. They seem to settle down,haveTubbie's confidence on the floor and go out there and get it much without the worries and troubles they had as FR and SO. I think Joe is headed thereat a good pace. Bet we won't even be having this conversation next year, or at least not until after the final four is over...


ukbob wrote:
JC is flat out INCONSISTENT....period. He has all of the talent in the world. He is a great athlete. However, for whatever reason, his game is only there about 20% of the time and not in big games.

Could be his position, could be the coach, could be his attitude. Who knows? Who cares? All I know is that we would be a lot better if he played strong EVERY GAME and when his shot isn't falling, he plays defense,