Where can I find a list of players who passed on UK because of Tubby? [Archive] - Wildcat Nation Forums

Chunks06

04-19-2006, 10:14 AM

PsychoCat

04-19-2006, 10:16 AM

BlueRazor wrote: This isn't meant to slam Tubby or gripe about UK's recruiting.

Yes it is :thumbdown Otherwise what's the point in your asking? :?

BlueRazor

04-19-2006, 10:21 AM

Chunks06 wrote: I dont see any reason why you would want this other than to slam Tubby. And as TRe said, the list would be way too subjective. THis thread is nonsense. Please give me a reason for this other then bashing Tubby. And if thats what it is used for, you need to find 10 other top programs to compare it to and also put together a list of recruits that have chosen Kentcuky because of Tubby's style of play. I expect this on my desk by noon,.Thanks

I live in Ohio and a friend of mine who is a UC fan asked me if I thought Tubby's style of play was working out for Kentucky since Cook who went to St. Johns a few year ago as well as 2 recruits who chose to go to Tennessee and UNC next year cited the reason as being UK's style of play under Tubby.

So I was interested in seein for myself which recruits may have also expressed this opinion.

If that is trying to slam Tubby then I guess no-one is allowed to ask anything if it isn't in praise of him.

BlueRazor

04-19-2006, 10:24 AM

PsychoCat wrote: BlueRazor wrote: This isn't meant to slam Tubby or gripe about UK's recruiting.

Yes it is :thumbdown Otherwise what's the point in your asking? :?

Nope but your quick assumption that it is is somewhat alarming.

It is a fair question with nothing malicious about it. There are recruits who have cited not wanting to come to UK because of Tubby and I was just interested in knowing who they might have been.

Might want to turn your "Sensitivity" Meter down a notch or two.

Grub

04-19-2006, 10:26 AM

BlueRazor wrote: Might want to turn your "Sensitivity" Meter down a notch or two.

Might want to burn your agenda list...

Chunks06

04-19-2006, 10:28 AM

:thumbupGrub wrote: BlueRazor wrote: Might want to turn your "Sensitivity" Meter down a notch or two.

Might want to burn your agenda list...
:thumbup:thumbup

RaleighCat

04-19-2006, 10:31 AM

BlueRazor wrote: PsychoCat wrote: BlueRazor wrote: This isn't meant to slam Tubby or gripe about UK's recruiting.

Yes it is :thumbdown Otherwise what's the point in your asking? :?

Nope but your quick assumption that it is is somewhat alarming.

It is a fair question with nothing malicious about it. There are recruits who have cited not wanting to come to UK because of Tubby and I was just interested in knowing who they might have been.

Might want to turn your "Sensitivity" Meter down a notch or two.

The Tubby Sensitivity Meter here goes to 11.

BlueRazor

04-19-2006, 10:41 AM

Grub wrote: BlueRazor wrote: Might want to turn your "Sensitivity" Meter down a notch or two.

Might want to burn your agenda list...

I didn't have an agenda list but after being attacked it makes me wonder if I should create one.

I'll just find the list myself and come back at a later time and then intentionally try and slam Tubby since apparently some people on this board assume anything that isn't building a shrine to the man is considered inappropriate.

FTR, I applaud Tubby's efforts and respect him for what he does as a man, father and friend to his players than what his record is every year.

BigBlue75

04-19-2006, 10:42 AM

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about why you're asking the question, but if such a list existed, I really don't know what it would prove. Every high school player in the country who is recruited to play college basketball is going to try and find a program where he feels the style of play would work for him. Simply because a player chooses to go to another school that fits his style better is not necessarily an indictment against Tubby. You can't put a square peg in a round hole, as they say. Every coach from Tubby to Roy Williams to Jim Boeheim to Jim Calhoun has had players sign with other schools where their talents could be utilized better. Again, I really don't see what it would prove.

I'm not accusing you of doing it, but you have to admit that if such a list of players existed like the one you're looking for, anyone who wants to do nothing but slam Tubby Smith could use that as ammunition, where it was warranted or not.

BlueRazor

04-19-2006, 10:56 AM

BigBlue75 wrote: Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about why you're asking the question, but if such a list existed, I really don't know what it would prove. Every high school player in the country who is recruited to play college basketball is going to try and find a program where he feels the style of play would work for him. Simply because a player chooses to go to another school that fits his style better is not necessarily an indictment against Tubby. You can't put a square peg in a round hole, as they say. Every coach from Tubby to Roy Williams to Jim Boeheim to Jim Calhoun has had players sign with other schools where their talents could be utilized better. Again, I really don't see what it would prove.

I'm not accusing you of doing it, but you have to admit that if such a list of players existed like the one you're looking for, anyone who wants to do nothing but slam Tubby Smith could use that as ammunition, where it was warranted or not.

I appreicate your posting and agree that players will go to schools that fit into their style of play and that doesn't reflect on how good a coach is.

I was just asking because UK fans seem to be some of the most knowledgeable basketball fans there are and I thought someone might now.

I didn't realize that some have a chip the size of Texas on their shoulder and any question that slightly resembles an attack would get instant critcism.

I have coached at different levels and know that what the fan sees and what really goes on can sometimes be the furthest from the truth.

Thanks for you input.

Athens2005

04-19-2006, 11:13 AM

BlueRazor wrote::
I have coached at different levels and know that what the fan sees and what really goes on can sometimes be the furthest from the truth.

I have coached at every level, except for college, and the pros. :P

Wildcat Larry

04-19-2006, 11:27 AM

Athens2005 wrote: BlueRazor wrote:I have coached at different levels and know that what the fan sees and what really goes on can sometimes be the furthest from the truth.
I have coached at every level, except for college, and the pros. :P

I've coached at every level except pros, college, high school, junior high school and grade school ..... so I know a thing or two about basketball. ;):P

I think most anybody on these forums would make the assumption that you call alarming. Why is it alarming. What else you use a list of recruiting failure for than to gripe about recruiting and general, and Tubby's recruiting specifically. If you have to start a post with a disclaimer, then it appears to me that you thought the question was questionable to start with. Not overly sensitive, just reading what you posted.

Generally, recruits tell why they went to where they went and seldom tell why they didn't go to where they didn't go. I'm no recruiting guru, but the only player that I can remember even mentioning style of play was Wright that went to UNC. Cook was no big loss (of course we didn't know it at the time) and I can't for the life of me think of two recruits that went to UT instead of UK. Seldom over the last few years has UK and UT been recruiting the same players, so I'm not sure that's accurate at all.

bornblue

04-19-2006, 11:36 AM

Such a list would serve no purpose. It would exist in a vacuum. By that I mean if there was such an accurate and objective list (which is impossible), then it would need to be accompanied by the same type of list for every majorD-1 coach for comparison. Otherwise its only purpose would be to serve some sort of analysis regarding OTS. Does anyone believe he is the only coach who loses prospects because they prefer to play elsewhere?

Having said that, I am not a fan of all the standing around, individual play, and lack of ball movementI often see in our offense. But when he won a title we didn't gripe, did we?

Buddah

04-19-2006, 11:59 AM

Oh come on guys, no need to argue about this, let us enjoy this beautiful and clear weather....

trublue4life

04-19-2006, 12:40 PM

BlueRazor wrote: This isn't meant to slam Tubby or gripe about UK's recruiting.

I am simply asking if anyone happens to know where I could find the list of players who openly admitted to not coming to UK because of Tubby's style of play.

I'm looking for the years from 2000 to current.

I may be reading you wrong (or at least different than others) but my guess is you will not find such a list, which wouldthereby actually work in Tubby's favor. Lots of players go different places for a variety of reasons: close to home, Momma's wishes, academics (or lack thereof:)), conference preference, etc. But I doubt anyone has said I rejected UK because of Tubby Smith and it will probably be a short list of those who specifically said I'm not coming because of Tubby Smith's style of play (and I would want to see those remarks in print or other media - not just "my cousin knows so and so's AAU coach's brother-in-law's best friend and he said..."). Now, that doesn't mean you don't have a problem if you are continually targeting certain players and continually come up dry that you don't need to ask why and try to correct that trend. But I doubt you will find many specific examples of what you are asking. The perception that Tubby plays such a vastly different style than most successful programs is just that...a perception which, IMO, is mostly a media creation. UCLA, which BTW had some pretty decent athletes, plays a grind it out style. Tubby's style is NOT grind it out.

Probably didn't help your quest for the answer to your question, but that is my opinion. And, as I've always said, everybody has a right to my opinion;).

Will Lavender

04-19-2006, 01:08 PM

I would bet you would be able to find two comments from recruits who mentioned Tubbyasa/thereason why they did not choose UK: one from Omar Cook, and one (sort of veiled) comment by Brandon Wright.

However, I would bet you would find many quotes by players who chose UKbecause of Tubby.

I think the recruiting problems are not anti-Tubby issues. These other guys are doing something better than Tubby, which is a far cry from a recruit looking back and saying he chose another school to spite Tubby. I know Tyler Hansbrough's dad said that he chose UNC because he wanted his son to learn under Roy Williams. That reflects more positively on Williams, I think, than it does negatively on Smith.

Critical difference there, and it's why any "research" you put into this would be, as someone else said, subjective and flawed.

TrueblueCATfan

04-19-2006, 01:13 PM

ThereisNO such list............and if you did not have an agenda then why ask the question:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

poodoo

04-19-2006, 01:30 PM

I think the recruiting problems are not anti-Tubby issues. These other guys are doing something better than Tubby, which is a far cry from a recruit looking back and saying he chose another school to spite Tubby. I know Tyler Hansbrough's dad said that he chose UNC because he wanted his son to learn under Roy Williams. That reflects more positively on Williams, I think, than it does negatively on Smith. QUOTE by Will Lavender

______

We continue to think alike on this one, Will. I agree that "these other guys," specifically Roy Williams, may be "doing something better than Tubby." Again I post that Brandon Wright answereda UK's fan'squestion of why he chose UNC over UK by saying that he was afraid that he wouldn't get enough minutes at UK to help him with the NBA (according to an acquaintance my husband and I deeply respect). To us, that means someone (Roy Williams, perhaps) put that bug into Wright's ear.

As I have previously posted, I have read many comments from players who have chosen UK, saying they liked the style UK(and obviously Tubby) plays. FWIW, inApril's Cats' Pause, in a recruiting article by Michael Brent, highly recruited forward Gary Johnson says the following about UK: "They're in my top five, and I LOVE HOW THEY PLAY."

AugustaDan

04-19-2006, 01:34 PM

BlueRazor wrote: Chunks06 wrote: I dont see any reason why you would want this other than to slam Tubby. And as TRe said, the list would be way too subjective. THis thread is nonsense. Please give me a reason for this other then bashing Tubby. And if thats what it is used for, you need to find 10 other top programs to compare it to and also put together a list of recruits that have chosen Kentcuky because of Tubby's style of play. I expect this on my desk by noon,.Thanks

I live in Ohio and a friend of mine who is a UC fan asked me if I thought Tubby's style of play was working out for Kentucky since Cook who went to St. Johns a few year ago as well as 2 recruits who chose to go to Tennessee and UNC next year cited the reason as being UK's style of play under Tubby.
Everyone knows about Brandan Wright. His comment was extremely dubious, IMO, based on how long he remained interested in UK. I take his comment with a grain of salt.

Who are the two at Tennessee?

Can anyone name any other player other than Cook?

NC Cat

04-19-2006, 01:39 PM

No kid has ever openly admitted passing on UK because of Tubby's style of play, so there is no list.

Now, are you happy?!? :ggrin:

Art Vandelay

04-19-2006, 01:45 PM

There is no such list and, frankly, it would be impossible to assemble such a list. It is enough to know that Tubby doesn't recruit very well.

More troubling than the the "whiffs" Tubby has made going after top players are the targets Tubby has landed. I really don't think Tubby is very good at evaluating talent. Adam Williams, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Josh Carrier, and a host of others were prime recruiting targets of Tubby. In many cases, Tubby is getting the players he wants and he seems to have a preference for second tier type players.

NC Cat

04-19-2006, 01:55 PM

On the other hand, here's a list of the players who said they came to UK specifically because of Tubby and his style of play:

Keith Bogans

Tayshaun Prince

Jason Parker

Marquis Estill

Gerald Fitch

Marvin Stone

Erik Daniels

Cliff Hawkins

Jules Camara

Chuck Hayes

Kelenna Azubuike

Antwain Barbour

Brandon Stockton

Sheray Thomas

Bobby Perry

Lukasz Orbsut

Shagari Alleyne

Patrick Sparks

Joe Crawford

Rajon Rondo

Ramel Bradley

Randolph Morris

Rekalin Simms

Jared Carter

Adam Williams

Derek Jasper

Jodie Meeks

Perry Stevenson

Michael Porter

:ggrin::ggrin::ggrin:

jaken

04-19-2006, 04:09 PM

Over on Cats Pause in the AMP video section is a short video highlighting comments of Jasper, Meeks & Stevenson at the Derby Classic, part of which was a question of "Why" they chose Ky (these are not 100% accurate quotes, but they're close enough).......

Meeks - "Coach Smith is a legendary coach"....."I've liked him since I was a little kid"....."When he called, I was ready to go".

Jasper - "I wanted to play for a winning Coach and he's a winning Coach." "I like that he makes you play defense."

Stevenson - "He told me the good stuff and the bad stuff and some of the others didn't. I guess I trust him more".

All 3 gives tidbits of info that can help explain the recruiting situation:

1. Ky fan all his life. Some kids just want to go to a particular place to play.
2. Makes you play defense. That's not very appealing to some of today's top players.
3. The Good & the Bad. I don't think a lot of the Coaches tell the recruits much about the "Bad" (such as the Academic expectations). Only after they get there do they find out about those things.

Also in the mix is that other Coaches promise Freshmen immediate PT, Tubby makes them earn it. He tells them it's possible if they work hard, but he makes no promises, especially about starting. And that's not what a lot of the top players want to hear. They also don't want to hear "Team" oriented ball, they want to hear "Me" oriented ball.

One interesting statement from Stevenson.... "I'm not an Offense oriented player, I'm not going to put up 30 points a game, but if you want somebody who can rebound and block shots, that's me." But this kid is quite capable of taking it to the basket, as are all three of them. The video also showed Jasper pumping in 3 consecutive 3 pointers as fast as he could shoot (3 pt. contest probably) - all net.

If you have acces to AMP, it's a good watch.

katfever

04-19-2006, 04:40 PM

FCFS82 wrote: "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

Now that's funny! lololol

poodoo

04-20-2006, 12:06 PM

jaken wrote: Over on Cats Pause in the AMP video section is a short video highlighting comments of Jasper, Meeks & Stevenson at the Derby Classic, part of which was a question of "Why" they chose Ky (these are not 100% accurate quotes, but they're close enough).......

Meeks - "Coach Smith is a legendary coach"....."I've liked him since I was a little kid"....."When he called, I was ready to go".

Jasper - "I wanted to play for a winning Coach and he's a winning Coach." "I like that he makes you play defense."

Stevenson - "He told me the good stuff and the bad stuff and some of the others didn't. I guess I trust him more".

All 3 gives tidbits of info that can help explain the recruiting situation:

1. Ky fan all his life. Some kids just want to go to a particular place to play.
2. Makes you play defense. That's not very appealing to some of today's top players.
3. The Good & the Bad. I don't think a lot of the Coaches tell the recruits much about the "Bad" (such as the Academic expectations). Only after they get there do they find out about those things.

Also in the mix is that other Coaches promise Freshmen immediate PT, Tubby makes them earn it. He tells them it's possible if they work hard, but he makes no promises, especially about starting. And that's not what a lot of the top players want to hear. They also don't want to hear "Team" oriented ball, they want to hear "Me" oriented ball.

One interesting statement from Stevenson.... "I'm not an Offense oriented player, I'm not going to put up 30 points a game, but if you want somebody who can rebound and block shots, that's me." But this kid is quite capable of taking it to the basket, as are all three of them. The video also showed Jasper pumping in 3 consecutive 3 pointers as fast as he could shoot (3 pt. contest probably) - all net.

If you have acces to AMP, it's a good watch.

Thanks for sharing, jaken. Too, I think you are right that Tubby's being so honest, including sharing both the good and bad, may sometimes hurt him in recruiting. As NotFrank has said, he sometimes tells these guys things they don't want to hear (while other coaches are promising a starting position or a lot of playing time and not mentioning defense). Stevenson's reaction of appreciating Tubby's sharing both the good and bad, unlike other coaches, showed a maturity I like, FWIW.

Now back to the search for that "list." :cool:

ukbob

04-20-2006, 12:45 PM

Buck Naked wrote: There is no such list and, frankly, it would be impossible to assemble such a list. It is enough to know that Tubby doesn't recruit very well.

More troubling than the the "whiffs" Tubby has made going after top players are the targets Tubby has landed. I really don't think Tubby is very good at evaluating talent. Adam Williams, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Josh Carrier, and a host of others were prime recruiting targets of Tubby. In many cases, Tubby is getting the players he wants and he seems to have a preference for second tier type players.

I disagree somewhat. I think he can evaluate pretty well. He knows the type of player he wants. I think the biggest issue is that he doesn't do as much of it himself as he should. He relies upon Assts getting it done and when they falter...well..... I think that is why he took on the Tyler Smith recruitment himself. And now we are in better position with him than before.

Smith can recruit....period. He knows how to get their trust, he makes a great impression on parents. He can do the right things. He just doesn't like it, IMO and won't make promises that he is not willing to keep. I think that combination hurts hissuccess ratiomore than anything. Evidently, you have to be fully committed to get some of these kids and he seems to not want to go the extra mile. Add that to the fact our Assistants have dropped th ball, according to reports, on some kids during the process, and you have bad recruiting.

Regardless as to what it is, it has to change...now.

ukwebfan

04-20-2006, 02:17 PM

That's simple enough. The answer is any player who didn't sign the LOI since he's been coaching. If they never admitted it, maybe no one asked. Shouldn't the focus be on the ones who want to be here?

Next question.:idea:

BlueRazor wrote: This isn't meant to slam Tubby or gripe about UK's recruiting.

I am simply asking if anyone happens to know where I could find the list of players who openly admitted to not coming to UK because of Tubby's style of play.

I'm looking for the years from 2000 to current.

audacious1

04-20-2006, 02:42 PM

ukbob wrote: Buck Naked wrote: There is no such list and, frankly, it would be impossible to assemble such a list. It is enough to know that Tubby doesn't recruit very well.

More troubling than the the "whiffs" Tubby has made going after top players are the targets Tubby has landed. I really don't think Tubby is very good at evaluating talent. Adam Williams, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas, Josh Carrier, and a host of others were prime recruiting targets of Tubby. In many cases, Tubby is getting the players he wants and he seems to have a preference for second tier type players.

I disagree somewhat. I think he can evaluate pretty well. He knows the type of player he wants. I think the biggest issue is that he doesn't do as much of it himself as he should. He relies upon Assts getting it done and when they falter...well..... I think that is why he took on the Tyler Smith recruitment himself. And now we are in better position with him than before.

Smith can recruit....period. He knows how to get their trust, he makes a great impression on parents. He can do the right things. He just doesn't like it, IMO and won't make promises that he is not willing to keep. I think that combination hurts hissuccess ratiomore than anything. Evidently, you have to be fully committed to get some of these kids and he seems to not want to go the extra mile. Add that to the fact our Assistants have dropped th ball, according to reports, on some kids during the process, and you have bad recruiting.

Regardless as to what it is, it has to change...now.

Sounds about right. I've always thought he's not enough of a "salesperson" to land some of the top kids. That's why we need (the right) assisstant who'll put everything he's got into it. Just not enough hours in the day.