Vaught's Views

[freethrow]

Tom Gray's study of the Stats show that Tubby hasn't been getting near the respect from many UK fans that he should.

http://www.amnews.com/public_html/?module=displaystory&story_id=22337&format=html

[Littlemeyer]

Tom Gray...is that who I think it is? :shock:

[ukbob]

Since I know Tom, I am not surprised this made the paper. He sent me those numbers as well.

His arguments do have merit, but it still comes down to Final Four results, style of playand "what have you done for me lately" fans that cannot take any more of Tubby Smith. Some will never be convinced he is UK worthy because they felt he wasn't when he got here. Some will also never believe he has flaws....several of them. Some are now defending him simply because they are tired of the constant barrage of criticism, founded and unfounded, being thrown at him CONSTANTLY.

One thing stats don't point out is that Tubby Smith is a sure fire lightning rod for UK basketball. His tenure here has created a chasm in the fan base like no other timebefore, IMO. And that ain't good.

The truth, IMO, lies somewhere in between all of this. Tubby is not the devil being made out by many. He is also not the end all of all that is college coaching either. He is a fine coach, a proven coach, that has warts galore, IMO. I guess that just makes him human. But for UK fans, they want more than that. And for $2.5million, he needs to have a few warts burned off.

Those stats do have some merit and should not be tossed away as nothing.But regardless of the stats, Tubby still has undeniable recruiting and player management issues that need to be fixed pronto, IMO.

Had OTS made some headway last year.....if a couple of shots had fallen the year before or a rebound grabbed, an injury not happened a few years ago....who knows. But it is an "if" game that gets us all and the coach at UK cannot survive on IFs. Can't go back and change anything. Personally, I am just hoping the future is brighter and Tubby does all the changing.

[Littlemeyer]

Good post UKbob. I'm guessing by your response that this was indeed the Tom I was thinking it might be.

I've touched on this topic before on here, but I do not hold Tubby's lack of final four's against him. Don't get me wrong...I'd love to get there, nay, we NEED to get there, and soon. But I don't think that the fact that we haven't makes Tubby Smith an inferior coach.

I guess a good (probably not, but maybe) analogy could be with authors. Take Stephen King for example. I didn't particularly care for a few of his endings, but I'll be damned if I didn't like the first 700 pages or so. Therefore, in my mind, King was a good writer (great regular season results). Yann Martel's Life of Pi...perhaps the best ending to a novel I have ever read. There were parts in the body (few, admittedly, but they were there) that dragged a bit, for me. Therefore, in my mind, Martel is a good writer (Final Fours).

I wish all books had great endings, the kind of ending that we'd raise a banner to celebrate. But, as has been mentioned time and time again on here (much to the chagrin of a portion of our fanbase), stuff happens. Sprained ankle here, missed rebound there, bad call here, bad luck of the draw there....We need to overcome these if's, no doubt, and like Bob, I hope Tubby is the one that undertakes the overcoming. If he can't, then I'll hope like hades that the next guy will get it done.

[freethrow]

The stats do hold merit, but even with the number of people we lost from this seasons team, if Tubby is not able to field and maintain a quality team this year I will most likely have reached my limit of supporting him. I really like the Man and hope he proves himself next season in a big way. I would like to have him here forever if he can produce more than mainly just SEC dominance.

[Littlemeyer]

freethrow wrote: The stats do hold merit, but even with the number of people we lost from this seasons team, if Tubby is not able to field and maintain a quality team this year I will most likely have reached my limit of supporting him. I really like the Man and hope he proves himself next season in a big way. I would like to have him here forever if he can produce more than mainly just SEC dominance.

Good post Freethrow, and this is almost how I feel as well. You bring up an interesting point, a point of contention amongst my friends and I...."if Tubby is not able to field and maintain a quality team this year..." My friends disagree with my definition of a quality team. They want one thing and one thing only: a Final Four. I would be thrilled with that, but I would not bail on Tubby if we had another 2003. Kentucky should enter March as a serious contender for Final Fours/championships every season. I don't think anyone considered us a serious anything this past season, and thats what I want to avoid going forward. If, next March, UK is again a non-factor, I'd more than likely join those wishing to pursue other coaching options.

[BlueHeart]

Littlemeyer, love the Stephen King analogy. Spot on. By the way, did you read the Dark Tower series? I loved all of it, including the ending :)

[Littlemeyer]

BlueHeart wrote: Littlemeyer, love the Stephen King analogy. Spot on. By the way, did you read the Dark Tower series? I loved all of it, including the ending :)


:lol: Hope I didn't offend any King fans with that analogy. I'm sure many of his books have great endings...no, haven't read the Dark Tower series. I have The Gunslinger on loan from a buddy at work, just haven't had time to dig into it yet.

I'd be interested in DCwildcat's take on these statistics. He probably has some stuff he could add to them as well.

[SunBaller]

Littlemeyer wrote: BlueHeart wrote: Littlemeyer, love the Stephen King analogy. Spot on. By the way, did you read the Dark Tower series? I loved all of it, including the ending :)


:lol: Hope I didn't offend any King fans with that analogy. I'm sure many of his books have great endings...no, haven't read the Dark Tower series. I have The Gunslinger on loan from a buddy at work, just haven't had time to dig into it yet.

I'd be interested in DCwildcat's take on these statistics. He probably has some stuff he could add to them as well.

Since I'm an avid Stephen King fan I thought I would jump in here, but no, you certainly did not say anything that would offend a King fan. However, comparing a writer's resultsin the same manner asa college basketball coach's results really isn't possible. An opinion of an author's product is purely subjective although millions of book sales and a multitude of movie deals could be considered by some as an objective view of King's product. I'm sure all of King's English Literature Instructor's at the University of Maine didn't give him A's on all his papers. Final Four appearances are purely objective however. We either get there or we don't. No subjectivity.

IMO, the fact that Tubby has more Top 50 Recruits than Pitino only serves to support Tubby's ineffectiveness in putting Final Four teams together and not make him more equal as a UK basketball coach. More talent should equate to more Final Four appearancesIMO.

I believe Gray's "stats" may support Tubby as a recruiter, but they certainly don't do him justice as a Final Four coach. Also, a great recruiter not only recruits talent, but must recruit the right chemistry at the right positions to get the right results. Is that happening????

The article mentions Gray's stepdaughter being as famous in Utahas any UK basketball player is in Kentucky. I have a feeling UK Basketball is more famous in Utah since we beatthe University of Utahout of the NCAA tournament six (6) different years; 1993, '96, '97, '98. 2003, and 2005. You know Utah must hate UK.

[Littlemeyer]

SunBaller wrote: An opinion of an author's product is purely subjective although millions of book sales and a multitude of movie deals could be considered by some as an objective view of King's product. I'm sure all of King's English Literature Instructor's at the University of Maine didn't give him A's on all his papers. Final Four appearances are purely objective however. We either get there or we don't. No subjectivity.




If your only criteria in judging a coach's performance was, indeed, whether or not he takes his team to the final four, then I'd agree with you. But I guess that was the point I was trying to make; I tend to look at more than just that. I like to consider the entire body of work, and hope for the desired ending, knowing that if the body of work is sufficient, the chances of attaining a proper ending are greater. If a coach makes A's on all of his papers, the chances of him making an A on the final are better than a coach who got by with C's and D's (probably).

Too many mediocre coaches have taken teams to the Final Four for that to be the sole measuring stick, IMO.

[Will Lavender]

Littlemeyer wrote: SunBaller wrote: An opinion of an author's product is purely subjective although millions of book sales and a multitude of movie deals could be considered by some as an objective view of King's product. I'm sure all of King's English Literature Instructor's at the University of Maine didn't give him A's on all his papers. Final Four appearances are purely objective however. We either get there or we don't. No subjectivity.




If your only criteria in judging a coach's performance was, indeed, whether or not he takes his team to the final four, then I'd agree with you. But I guess that was the point I was trying to make; I tend to look at more than just that. I like to consider the entire body of work, and hope for the desired ending, knowing that if the body of work is sufficient, the chances of attaining a proper ending are greater. If a coach makes A's on all of his papers, the chances of him making an A on the final are better than a coach who got by with C's and D's (probably).

Too many mediocre coaches have taken teams to the Final Four for that to be the sole measuring stick, IMO.

Very true.

I think we're somewhere approaching a true "measure" of Tubby Smith, though. The Final Four drought is worrying; there's no doubt about it. In fact, I think the drought damages Tubby's legacy quite a bit, although look how much better "Two Final Fours in 8 years" sounds than "One Final Four in his career." We would be using the first line in Tubby's bio had we won that game against Michigan State.

So. Look how much different the first scenario is from the last. No more "Tubby hasn't recruited anyone to play in a final Four." No more "Tubby will never get to the Final Four with his own guys." No more doubting.

It was that close.

So the chasm that some suggest that stretches between Tubby Smith and a Final Four is a construction of fans who want Rick Pitino back.

That's me being objective.

[sardiscat]

I don't care squat about making a Final Four. Tubby's job is to win the NCAA championship. 8 years isn't the longest UK has ever gone without one, but it's high time he won one.