Personification of the Tubby Smith Approach

[FrogtownRoadCat]

Did you catch the postgame interviews following the Pistons' loss to the Heat the other night?

An intense Rip Hamilton essentially said the that team had a goal to win a championship, it didn't accomplish that goal, that the season as a result is a disappointing one, and that the team needs to work harder and figure out what it can do to win a championship next season. A season "without a ring" is extremely disappointing, and the team has nothing to celebrate, an appearance in the Eastern Conference Finals notwithstanding.

Rip was followed up by a typically laid back Tayshaun Prince, who essentially said that one can't call the season disappointing. The team, after all, beat a tough Cleveland team in the earlier round and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, suggesting that the failure to win a championshipwas nothing to be upset by or alarmed at.

To me, this personifies the circumstances under which things have gone wrong for UK basketball. The intensity, the determination to win win win, and to win in the NCAA tournament (with the failure to do so felt by the players and coaches as nearly tragic) has been replaced by a school of thought that championships aren't important, that simply a decent record in the regular season (or the best over an arbitrary three year period) is not only acceptable but commendable. Or as Tubby would say, "a good year."

Level headed fans should, for their health if nothing else, subscribe to the latter approach. The typical UK fan has historically, of course, adhered to the former approach. I believe the players, the coaches, and those surrounding the program should want to win SO BADLY, should work work work unbelievably hard for it, shoulddedicate their lives to it, so that when they don't accomplish their championship goal, they're disappointed, hurt, devastated. I, as a typical historical UK fan, don't need a player or coach telling me that I shouldn't be disappointed that the team didn't win a championship. I especially don't want to hear a player say that he's not disappointed in his team's season when the team's championship goal is not met. In my mind, Tayshaun's comments exemplify the mindset of today's UK Basketball program. Rip Hamilton's comments are an example of the way UK Basketball used to be. Perhaps today's version is healthier; but yesterday's version sure was much much much more fun and fulfilling.

[sojourner]

Let me get this straight. You are saying that Prince is the way he is solely because of Tubby?

How does Tubby get blamed for the Pistons' losing?

Prince has always looked laid-back, he was that way long before he came to UK. Funny how you don't like what he said and yet Prince is probably the one Piston who came to play the most. And had the best playoffs. Which do YOU want; a guy who says the right things or a guy who does the right things?

We have won 7 championships. So you are saying that the other 60 plus years the players should have been "devastated" that they didn't win it all. I say you need a life.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

No. Prince's approach personifies the Tubby Smith Approach. I didn't say Prince is the way he is because of Tubby, nor did I suggest that Tubby had anything to do with the Pistons' loss. I say you are a modern UK basketball fan, not that there's anything wrong with that. You'll be healthier for it. By the way, Prince cried his eyes out when, as a Freshman,his UK team lost to Michigan State in the Elite Eight. Tom Leach stated on the radio that it was good that Prince was so passionate about winning and that it hurt him so to lose. I say that was the stamping of the Turner, Padgett,Mills, et al approach that dissipated once the playersof their era departed.

[jrodw8]

Do you really think our goal isn't to win the national title? Come on, thats ludacris, no college coach that I remember comes out and says this season is wasted because we didn't win a championship. Pitino never said it, he always came out and said we had a great year, it just ended a little before we wanted to. And I understand why a coach wouldn't come out and say that. I think of it this way, if after every loss the coach comes out and says we didnt win the championship, we suck, how do you think 19 or 20 year olds are going to react? Not very well, young people, by in large, are fickle, and telling them that the last year that they spent busting there butts and working hard for you was worthless, is not a good way to convey feelings. Tubby Smith wants to win championships and he wants to win them badly, but he isn't going to call his team a bunch of failures when it doesn't happen every year. After all only one team wins it all, and every teams goal should be to win it all. And I feel 100% certain that is our goal every year, no matter if the coach says so publicly or not.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

So Rip Hamilton is out of line?

I see I'm surrounded by modern, healthier, UK basketball fans.

[jrodw8]

I don't think he is out of line, prefessional athletes are a different breed. They are paid to play, any rip on them is fair. I just don't think it is a good comparison to the college game....and as an interesting side note, if Rip Hamilton had of showed up the first 5 games of the series, maybe they wouldn't have been ousted yet.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

jrodw8 wrote: Come on, thats ludacris ...
Ludacris the singer? Or ludicrous the adjective?

[jrodw8]

the adjective, spelling isn't my best subject, I'm an accountant....lol

[FrogtownRoadCat]

A bean counter, huh?

[jrodw8]

I should say I do understand your point of view on the subject, I just have mellowed out in recent years and realized that no one, not UK, or Duke, or Unc, or anyone is going to win every game every year. I do think everyones goal is to win it all, but it is not realistic to think it will happen every year. Some guys take losses hard, especially a few we currently have on our team, and I think that telling 20 year olds all they have done for you was pointless is not the way to go, especially with this particular core of guys we have.

[FrogtownRoadCat]

sojourner wrote: We have won 7 championships. So you are saying that the other 60 plus years the players should have been "devastated" that they didn't win it all. I say you need a life.

Read the books about Rupp. Talk to those who knew him. Learn about his determination for success and perfection. I'd say those 7 championships are largely attributable to the old UK championship drive, however unrealistic it may be.

[Will Lavender]

I guarantee you Tubby Smith wants a championship worse than you do.

The fact that he only has one is simply a manifestation of his shortcomings as a coach and a recruiter. Has nothing to do with desire.

The incessant Tayshaun Prince references work against Frogtown. Tayshaun has his ring. Two NBA Finals in four years. I don't know what you call that, but I call it "desire."

[wyldkatzky]

lol.

thats all.

[sojourner]

FrogtownRoadCat wrote: sojourner wrote: We have won 7 championships. So you are saying that the other 60 plus years the players should have been "devastated" that they didn't win it all. I say you need a life.

Read the books about Rupp. Talk to those who knew him. Learn about his determination for success and perfection. I'd say those 7 championships are largely attributable to the old UK championship drive, however unrealistic it may be.



Wow. Tubby grew up as one of 17 kids and willed himself to where he is and you act like he has no drive. I think we won with Tubby as a coach in 1998.

If you go around telling 19 year olds that theirseason was a waste of time because they did not win the NCAA chanpionship they will tune you out faster than can say "devestated".

[FrogtownRoadCat]

I hope a college age kid would never say "devestated." ;)

Each of you is proving my point. Things are different now around UK basketball, and not in a way that lends itself to championship type performances. There is an aura of settling, of accepting less than the best. Quite the contrary to Coach Pitino's reaction to UK's 1995 loss to UNC in the Elite Eight. 1996 might have turned out differently had Coach Pitino followed Tayshaun Prince's approach and declared that 1995 wasn't unfulfilling, that a loss in the Elite Eight under those circumstances wasn't disappointing. Too many times do I hear Coach Smith tell me and all UK followers exactly how good of a season the team just had. This modern UK basketball approach continues to fester in the soon-to-be longest Final Four drought in the history of the program. I don't fault the modern UK basketball fan, and as I pointed out above, they'll probably live healthier lives than the old diehards. But old diehards like me and many others I know like me either are losing interest or have lost interest with the modern UK basketball program, and more seasons like last season and continuous roster shakeups may cause a downward spiral that makes the current Final Four drought a permanent one, at least until significant changes are made.

And that's all I got to say about that.:D

[SunBaller]

Will Lavender wrote: I guarantee you Tubby Smith wants a championship worse than you do.

The fact that he only has one is simply a manifestation of his shortcomings as a coach and a recruiter. Has nothing to do with desire.

Sorry, but Tubby only has a portion of a championship, not an entire championship. That's been established beyond reasonable doubt. Rhetoric will never change that, but if you have a boring life giveit a go.

The players Tubby recruits don't have the 'killer instinct",the drive, or the chemistryto win lNational Championships. If they have it when they get here, they quickly lose that drive and chemistryIMO.

[RaleighCat]

I don't pin Tayshaun's attitude on Tubby Smith. However, it's an interesting topic. In the immediate aftermath of losing I can understand Rip Hamilton's attitude. I'd want my players/teammates to be angry about losing. I'd expect to hear this kind of response.

After a few days or weeks, then maybe the attitude softens. But not in the immediate aftermath. Tayshuan made his comments right after losing. He played really well throughout the playoffs (unlike Rip Hamilton, although his ankle gets part of the blame). Prince's comments might have been reflective of the fact that he did about all he could dofor that team. Heleft it all on the court and had a great overall season.

Personally, I understand Rip Hamilton's response more than I do Tayshaun's. Doesn't make eitherright or wrong. Just different.

[Will Lavender]

RaleighCat wrote: I don't pin Tayshaun's attitude on Tubby Smith. However, it's an interesting topic. In the immediate aftermath of losing I can understand Rip Hamilton's attitude. I'd want my players/teammates to be angry about losing. I'd expect to hear this kind of response.

After a few days or weeks, then maybe the attitude softens. But not in the immediate aftermath. Tayshuan made his comments right after losing. He played really well throughout the playoffs (unlike Rip Hamilton, although his ankle gets part of the blame). Prince's comments might have been reflective of the fact that he did about all he could dofor that team. Heleft it all on the court and had a great overall season.

Personally, I understand Rip Hamilton's response more than I do Tayshaun's. Doesn't make eitherright or wrong. Just different.

Good point about Tayshaun's play, Raleigh.

The only objective measure we have about a player's "desire" is not post-game comments: it's his production on the floor.

And Tayshaun outplayed Rip. I'd be peeved to if I were Hamilton -- at myself.

[Will Lavender]

FrogtownRoadCat wrote: I hope a college age kid would never say "devestated." ;)

Each of you is proving my point. Things are different now around UK basketball, and not in a way that lends itself to championship type performances. There is an aura of settling, of accepting less than the best. Quite the contrary to Coach Pitino's reaction to UK's 1995 loss to UNC in the Elite Eight. 1996 might have turned out differently had Coach Pitino followed Tayshaun Prince's approach and declared that 1995 wasn't unfulfilling, that a loss in the Elite Eight under those circumstances wasn't disappointing. Too many times do I hear Coach Smith tell me and all UK followers exactly how good of a season the team just had. This modern UK basketball approach continues to fester in the soon-to-be longest Final Four drought in the history of the program. I don't fault the modern UK basketball fan, and as I pointed out above, they'll probably live healthier lives than the old diehards. But old diehards like me and many others I know like me either are losing interest or have lost interest with the modern UK basketball program, and more seasons like last season and continuous roster shakeups may cause a downward spiral that makes the current Final Four drought a permanent one, at least until significant changes are made.

And that's all I got to say about that.:D

I think you're taking a fan's stance, though. You're trying to project yourself -- your own desires and needs for fullfillment -- upon a player.

That's a fallacy in the highest degree.

A player has to WORK. Professional athletes especially work harder than many of us can ever imagine for months upon end. And Tubby, too, works hard at what he does. I heard at Tubby's clinic that Tubby and his staff showed up at 6:00 in the morning and left well after midnight every day starting in August and ending in April. Bill Keightley said that.

All we do is WANT. We don't work at it. Our success is defined by what we see on the court. We have no direct part in that. We just watch it happen.

This distinction makes all the difference. Because the levels of success and how that word is defined is going to be much different for a fan (the guy who, like me, sits on his chair and watches) and the athlete or the coach (the guy who works endless hours to get better). To call a season a failure when you make the Eastern Conference Finals, or even when you make an Elite 8, doesn't make sense to the coach or the athlete: they've worked damn hard to get to that point. In Tayshaun's case, his team was one of four left. They had a great regular season. You have to work your *** off for something like that, and for some fan to sit there and say, "Well, I'm not satisfied and the players shouldn't be either" -- well, to me that's arrogance personified.

[Houstoncat]

Frogtown, your observation is astute and from my perspective quite true. Good post and thought provoking.

[RaleighCat]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SPORTS03

Collection of Detroit Free Press articles on the Pistons' untimely end. Very high praise for Tayshuan Prince. Not so much on Tony Delk. FWIW.

[UKfaninCO]

SunBaller wrote: Sorry, but Tubby only has a portion of a championship, not an entire championship. That's been established beyond reasonable doubt. Rhetoric will never change that, but if you have a boring life giveit a go.


It's not for YOU to say what he has accomplished or not. He has the ring. Ricky doesn't get the ring for '98. Tubby does. I can't believe some people. And your rherotic will never change the fact that he gets the ring and the credit.

[jrodw8]

Will Lavender wrote: FrogtownRoadCat wrote: I hope a college age kid would never say "devestated." ;)

Each of you is proving my point. Things are different now around UK basketball, and not in a way that lends itself to championship type performances. There is an aura of settling, of accepting less than the best. Quite the contrary to Coach Pitino's reaction to UK's 1995 loss to UNC in the Elite Eight. 1996 might have turned out differently had Coach Pitino followed Tayshaun Prince's approach and declared that 1995 wasn't unfulfilling, that a loss in the Elite Eight under those circumstances wasn't disappointing. Too many times do I hear Coach Smith tell me and all UK followers exactly how good of a season the team just had. This modern UK basketball approach continues to fester in the soon-to-be longest Final Four drought in the history of the program. I don't fault the modern UK basketball fan, and as I pointed out above, they'll probably live healthier lives than the old diehards. But old diehards like me and many others I know like me either are losing interest or have lost interest with the modern UK basketball program, and more seasons like last season and continuous roster shakeups may cause a downward spiral that makes the current Final Four drought a permanent one, at least until significant changes are made.

And that's all I got to say about that.:D

I think you're taking a fan's stance, though. You're trying to project yourself -- your own desires and needs for fullfillment -- upon a player.

That's a fallacy in the highest degree.

A player has to WORK. Professional athletes especially work harder than many of us can ever imagine for months upon end. And Tubby, too, works hard at what he does. I heard at Tubby's clinic that Tubby and his staff showed up at 6:00 in the morning and left well after midnight every day starting in August and ending in April. Bill Keightley said that.

All we do is WANT. We don't work at it. Our success is defined by what we see on the court. We have no direct part in that. We just watch it happen.

This distinction makes all the difference. Because the levels of success and how that word is defined is going to be much different for a fan (the guy who, like me, sits on his chair and watches) and the athlete or the coach (the guy who works endless hours to get better). To call a season a failure when you make the Eastern Conference Finals, or even when you make an Elite 8, doesn't make sense to the coach or the athlete: they've worked damn hard to get to that point. In Tayshaun's case, his team was one of four left. They had a great regular season. You have to work your *** off for something like that, and for some fan to sit there and say, "Well, I'm not satisfied and the players shouldn't be either" -- well, to me that's arrogance personified.



Exactly, our attitude has nothing to do with how the coaches and players feel. They all no last season was not a great season and it did not end where they wanted. They all said the right things at the end of the year and I believe all our players coming back are not gonna allows us to go through that type of season again. You can't just go out and fume after a game about a season with the way the media takes off with things, buttoning your lips fairly tight is a good idea...imo.

[Mark Blueblood]

Well, frogtown, I don't know if I'm a "modern" Kentucky fan or not. I started rooting for them in 1960 - went to school there for 6 years and 2 degrees and have served on local and national alumni boards for 20 years......but.....

You mention there are those, disagreeing with you of course, that are "proving your point". I have a question - what IS your point???

That Rupp wanted to win more than Tubby?? That Tubby is so lackadaisical that he doesn't desire to win another championship??? Gee....you must have some inside information.

All I know is what people who have worked with him in his basketball camps tell me. The word is, if you think Tubby Smith is some easy going, just do it however you want, lackadaisical, laid back guy.....well, you could NOT be farther from the truth.

Also, I'd like to know how you attribute Prince's post game remarks as being correlated with how Tubby Smith approches the game of basketball???

You a shrink or somethin'?

[Chunks06]

Mark Blueblood wrote: Well, frogtown, I don't know if I'm a "modern" Kentucky fan or not. I started rooting for them in 1960 - went to school there for 6 years and 2 degrees and have served on local and national alumni boards for 20 years......but.....

You mention there are those, disagreeing with you of course, that are "proving your point". I have a question - what IS your point???

That Rupp wanted to win more than Tubby?? That Tubby is so lackadaisical that he doesn't desire to win another championship??? Gee....you must have some inside information.

All I know is what people who have worked with him in his basketball camps tell me. The word is, if you think Tubby Smith is some easy going, just do it however you want, lackadaisical, laid back guy.....well, you could NOT be farther from the truth.

Also, I'd like to know how you attribute Prince's post game remarks as being correlated with how Tubby Smith approches the game of basketball???

You a shrink or somethin'?

nice post. Well stated.

[KWICD]

SunBaller wrote: Will Lavender wrote: I guarantee you Tubby Smith wants a championship worse than you do.

The fact that he only has one is simply a manifestation of his shortcomings as a coach and a recruiter. Has nothing to do with desire.

Sorry, but Tubby only has a portion of a championship, not an entire championship. That's been established beyond reasonable doubt. Rhetoric will never change that, but if you have a boring life giveit a go.

The players Tubby recruits don't have the 'killer instinct",the drive, or the chemistryto win lNational Championships. If they have it when they get here, they quickly lose that drive and chemistryIMO.

When did they start giving out partial Championships?

[Will Lavender]

KWICD wrote: SunBaller wrote: Will Lavender wrote: I guarantee you Tubby Smith wants a championship worse than you do.

The fact that he only has one is simply a manifestation of his shortcomings as a coach and a recruiter. Has nothing to do with desire.

Sorry, but Tubby only has a portion of a championship, not an entire championship. That's been established beyond reasonable doubt. Rhetoric will never change that, but if you have a boring life giveit a go.

The players Tubby recruits don't have the 'killer instinct",the drive, or the chemistryto win lNational Championships. If they have it when they get here, they quickly lose that drive and chemistryIMO.

When did they start giving out partial Championships?
April 1998.

[ai4uk]

Gas prices went up today in Eastern Kentucky, I guess that's Tubby's fault too.

[fanaticfan]

Give me Tayshaun Prince type player over a Rip Hamilton player any day. The only thing that I thought after watching the post game comments, was" If Rip had showed up in the early games of this series, maybe he wouldn't be disappointed" and after Prince spoke" what a classy young man, to come out and represent like he did and to never place blame " I am sure that he was as disappointed as Rip was................people just have different ways of analyzing things! I don't know what kind of fan this makes me, I just thank God that I live in this great state and have been able to enjoy this great sport. Not many states have the bragging rights that we do. And yes, by the way, Prince put the Pistons on his back and carried them through many of the games with Cleveland and Miami. Hard work and never, ever give up!Maybe this isa testimony to the way Tubby is.

[T75]

FrogtownRoadCat wrote: Did you catch the postgame interviews following the Pistons' loss to the Heat the other night?

An intense Rip Hamilton essentially said the that team had a goal to win a championship, it didn't accomplish that goal, that the season as a result is a disappointing one, and that the team needs to work harder and figure out what it can do to win a championship next season. A season "without a ring" is extremely disappointing, and the team has nothing to celebrate, an appearance in the Eastern Conference Finals notwithstanding.

Rip was followed up by a typically laid back Tayshaun Prince, who essentially said that one can't call the season disappointing. The team, after all, beat a tough Cleveland team in the earlier round and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, suggesting that the failure to win a championshipwas nothing to be upset by or alarmed at.

To me, this personifies the circumstances under which things have gone wrong for UK basketball. The intensity, the determination to win win win, and to win in the NCAA tournament (with the failure to do so felt by the players and coaches as nearly tragic) has been replaced by a school of thought that championships aren't important, that simply a decent record in the regular season (or the best over an arbitrary three year period) is not only acceptable but commendable. Or as Tubby would say, "a good year."


I couldn't agree more. I prefer the Vince Lombardi attitude. Vince said "If you can accept losing you can't win."

I've never in my life been so disappointed in the Cats as I was in the apparent attitude of the players and staff when the Cats came to Columbus a couple of years ago in the first round of the NCAA tournament, sauntered onto the floor like they were royalty and pooped through a first game against the 16th seed and then still didn't learn anything---did the samein the next game, losing toa UAB team that they should have beaten by 20. I had lots of folks there to see "My Cats" and they embarrassed me by looking worse than the Buckeyes.

Like him or not, you never had occasion to doubt the importance of winning when Ricky was running things. There may have been a game during those Pitino years when I thought the Cats didn't give it their all, but, if so, I don't remember it. The lastfew years there aremany gamesin whichI thought the Cats as a team really nevergave their all.

But, back to the Pistons, I've followed them fairly closely the last 3 seasons and I thought their play in this year's play-offs was more lackadaisical than I've seen from the team before. Their frantic sticky defense never showed, period. And when a team such as the Pistons (or our Cats) has a game plan that calls for them to live off their defense, it's not something they can pull on and take off when the feel like it.

[RaleighCat]

fanaticfan wrote: Give me Tayshaun Prince type player over a Rip Hamilton player any day. The only thing that I thought after watching the post game comments, was" If Rip had showed up in the early games of this series, maybe he wouldn't be disappointed" and after Prince spoke" what a classy young man, to come out and represent like he did and to never place blame " I am sure that he was as disappointed as Rip was................people just have different ways of analyzing things! I don't know what kind of fan this makes me, I just thank God that I live in this great state and have been able to enjoy this great sport. Not many states have the bragging rights that we do. And yes, by the way, Prince put the Pistons on his back and carried them through many of the games with Cleveland and Miami. Hard work and never, ever give up!Maybe this isa testimony to the way Tubby is.

Take it easy on Rip Hamilton. He won a National Championship at UConn and has worked his tail off to become one of the best players in the NBA. He didn't have a great postseason, but the same can be said for Billups, Sheed and Ben Wallace.

Both Rip and Tayshuan are class individuals and warrior players. Rip has paid his dues and accomplished quite a lot for a young player.

[audacious1]

What I'd like to know is did Frogtown come onto WCN and make a post praising Tubby and UK after Prince's Game 529/7/3 performance or did he just wait until something negative happened so he could it to criticize Tubby?

[blueheretic]

I think his [Frogtown]point is that Tubby's "good enough" attitude is holdingtheBasketball program back.

It's good enough that Tubbyalmost beat UM who was the eventual National Champion.

It's good enough that Dwayne Wade had a stellar performance and Bogans had an injured ankle and knocked Tubby out of the Tournament.

It's good enough that UK played well against UCONN in this past tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby recruits players who fit his system and can win during the regular season but can't get over the hump and into the Final Four in the NCAA Tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby lucks into many of his recruits such as Hawkins and Rondo and Azibuike and that for many of them UK was at best their second choice.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.

Tubby is exactly that: good enough. Tulsa is fine with "good enough." UGa Basketball is fine with"good enough." It would seem that UK Basketball is now fine with "good enough."

Good enough will never result in a National Championship.

I know Will. You disagree and I can not tell the future. I can, however, predict that which I believe will or will not occur based upon history, patterns, habitsand earlier results and methodology of Tubby Smith.

[scars.of.grace]

ai4uk wrote: Gas prices went up today in Eastern Kentern, I guess that's Tubby's fault too. :D:D

[audacious1]

blueheretic wrote: I think his [Frogtown]point is that Tubby's "good enough" attitude is holdingtheBasketball program back.

It's good enough that Tubbyalmost beat UM who was the eventual National Champion.

It's good enough that Dwayne Wade had a stellar performance and Bogans had an injured ankle and knocked Tubby out of the Tournament.

It's good enough that UK played well against UCONN in this past tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby recruits players who fit his system and can win during the regular season but can't get over the hump and into the Final Four in the NCAA Tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby lucks into many of his recruits such as Hawkins and Rondo and Azibuike and that for many of them UK was at best their second choice.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.

Tubby is exactly that: good enough. Tulsa is fine with "good enough." UGa Basketball is fine with"good enough." It would seem that UK Basketball is now fine with "good enough."

Good enough will never result in a National Championship.

I know Will. You disagree and I can not tell the future. I can, however, predict that which I believe will or will not occur based upon history, patterns, habitsand earlier results and methodology of Tubby Smith.

I think you're putting words in Tubby's mouth. Where did he say last year was "good enough"? If you're going to argue a point, at least have a reference.

[poodoo]

Mark Blueblood wrote:

All I know is what people who have worked with him in his basketball camps tell me. The word is, if you think Tubby Smith is some easy going, just do it however you want, lackadaisical, laid back guy.....well, you could NOT be farther from the truth.





Exactly, Mark.

Too, I tend to believe those people who are actually around the program. I have heard radio hosts say that Tubby Smith is quite animated at practices. They have alsosaid that he isEXTREMELY COMPETITIVE, thathe wants to win anything he plays.

That his team did not win as many games as it could have, or should have, this past season has NOTHING to do with Tubby's desire to win, including winning championships, just as Tayshaun's answer has nothing to do with Tubby's influence. Tayshaun came into UK with that laid-back attitude and left the same way. By the way, he was a "keeper," and I happen to love him, laid-back attitude and all. :)

Also, yes, Tubby Smith won a national championship, period. Too, he won all the national coach of the year awards in 2003. Those are facts. :)On the other hand, my opinion is that Tubby Smith did not do his best in coaching last year's team, far from it. Regardless, the team's not winning more games had NOTHING to do with Coach Smith's attitude about the importance of winning games and championships. Just my humble opinion the matter.

[blueheretic]

Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I think his [Frogtown]point is that Tubby's "good enough" attitude is holdingtheBasketball program back.

It's good enough that Tubbyalmost beat UM who was the eventual National Champion.

It's good enough that Dwayne Wade had a stellar performance and Bogans had an injured ankle and knocked Tubby out of the Tournament.

It's good enough that UK played well against UCONN in this past tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby recruits players who fit his system and can win during the regular season but can't get over the hump and into the Final Four in the NCAA Tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby lucks into many of his recruits such as Hawkins and Rondo and Azibuike and that for many of them UK was at best their second choice.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.

Tubby is exactly that: good enough. Tulsa is fine with "good enough." UGa Basketball is fine with"good enough." It would seem that UK Basketball is now fine with "good enough."

Good enough will never result in a National Championship.

I know Will. You disagree and I can not tell the future. I can, however, predict that which I believe will or will not occur based upon history, patterns, habitsand earlier results and methodology of Tubby Smith.

I think you're putting words in Tubby's mouth. Where did he say last year was "good enough"? If you're going to argue a point, at least have a reference.



Where in that post are the words "Tubby said?"

The "good enough" syndrome is all over UK Basketball. Most notably in many of it's fans. Especially those who find it a badge of honor to havelost to the eventual NCAA Champion the following and statements like it. Those attitudes are all over this forum and every other UK Sports Forum.

[DCWildcat]

SunBaller wrote: Will Lavender wrote: I guarantee you Tubby Smith wants a championship worse than you do.

The fact that he only has one is simply a manifestation of his shortcomings as a coach and a recruiter. Has nothing to do with desire.

Sorry, but Tubby only has a portion of a championship, not an entire championship. That's been established beyond reasonable doubt. Rhetoric will never change that, but if you have a boring life giveit a go.

The players Tubby recruits don't have the 'killer instinct",the drive, or the chemistryto win lNational Championships. If they have it when they get here, they quickly lose that drive and chemistryIMO.

Exactly what portion is that? 2/3? 1/2? The notion that it's been "established beyond reasonable doubt" suggests that this has a quality other than invalid subjective reasoning...which it doesn't. Nothing has been established because nothing can be established on that. Sorry.

[audacious1]

blueheretic wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: blueheretic wrote: I think his [Frogtown]point is that Tubby's "good enough" attitude is holdingtheBasketball program back.

It's good enough that Tubbyalmost beat UM who was the eventual National Champion.

It's good enough that Dwayne Wade had a stellar performance and Bogans had an injured ankle and knocked Tubby out of the Tournament.

It's good enough that UK played well against UCONN in this past tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby recruits players who fit his system and can win during the regular season but can't get over the hump and into the Final Four in the NCAA Tournament.

It's good enough that Tubby lucks into many of his recruits such as Hawkins and Rondo and Azibuike and that for many of them UK was at best their second choice.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.

Tubby is exactly that: good enough. Tulsa is fine with "good enough." UGa Basketball is fine with"good enough." It would seem that UK Basketball is now fine with "good enough."

Good enough will never result in a National Championship.

I know Will. You disagree and I can not tell the future. I can, however, predict that which I believe will or will not occur based upon history, patterns, habitsand earlier results and methodology of Tubby Smith.

I think you're putting words in Tubby's mouth. Where did he say last year was "good enough"? If you're going to argue a point, at least have a reference.



Where in that post are the words "Tubby said?"

The "good enough" syndrome is all over UK Basketball. Most notably in many of it's fans. Especially those who find it a badge of honor to havelost to the eventual NCAA Champion the following and statements like it. Those attitudes are all over this forum and every other UK Sports Forum.

You may not have used the words "Tubby said" but it's clear that you are blaming Tubby throughout your post with that kind of attitude that you can't substantiate. Now you backpeddle and put it on the fans. Which is it?

[ukbob]

I am still looking for the ones who said last season was "good enough". Sorry, I can't find anyone who said it or thinks it. :thumbdown

Oh and nobody can compliment an effort against a superior opponent even though we lost? Pretty sad. Perhaps some REALISTIC fans understand the odds of winning every single game is pretty low and bumps in the road will happen to everyone. It is true we have had way too many bumps to suit me and most of us, but believe it or not, they happen. How we react tothe disappointments and learn fromthem is important as well.My hope is that 06 givesus a clue to all that.

And if you think OTS does not want to get to the FF, then there is nothing that can be discussed. He may behaving difficulty getting there, that's for sure (and the reasons have been beat to death), but to say that is the attitude of the staff and the fans is so far off based it is not worth talking about. Pure drivel, IMO.

Fans often "settle" for things because we have little choice in the matter. Oh sure, we could take out full page ads to express our anger(AHEM) or write the administration or the coach detailing just how we would do things. We could simply give up on the program and either change allegiances or quit caring altogether. Not many options, but to say that fans think everything is just "good enough" is far fetched. Perhaps REALISTIC fans know that the heat is squarely upon the staff to improve the situation and they are going to see how it plays out before deciding upon other options.

And to think that we still have fans that won't give this coach credit for 98 boggles my mind and embarrasses me as a UK fan.

I get the distinct impression that some/many fans FEAR Tubby may improve things versus hoping he does. In fact, I am convinced that is true.

[Houstoncat]

Chunks06 wrote: Mark Blueblood wrote: Well, frogtown, I don't know if I'm a "modern" Kentucky fan or not. I started rooting for them in 1960 - went to school there for 6 years and 2 degrees and have served on local and national alumni boards for 20 years......but.....

You mention there are those, disagreeing with you of course, that are "proving your point". I have a question - what IS your point???

That Rupp wanted to win more than Tubby?? That Tubby is so lackadaisical that he doesn't desire to win another championship??? Gee....you must have some inside information.

All I know is what people who have worked with him in his basketball camps tell me. The word is, if you think Tubby Smith is some easy going, just do it however you want, lackadaisical, laid back guy.....well, you could NOT be farther from the truth.

Also, I'd like to know how you attribute Prince's post game remarks as being correlated with how Tubby Smith approches the game of basketball???

You a shrink or somethin'?

nice post. Well stated.The problem as I see it is that if TS is indeed the type of coach Mark says he is, its not translating to the court i.e. he's notteaching it. Its also not translating to his recruiting and not getting across to recruits he needs. it doesn't appear to be filtering though to his assistents who are at very best average and aren't helping his cause. Coach Smith may indeed be a great coach but he doesn't appear to be a good manager and therein lies a problem with a program of UK Status.As for Prince's comments. That's him. He's competative but seems to be able to put disappointment out of his mind and not dwell on it. He was that way when recruited by TS.

[DCWildcat]

This thread, and other threads like it that attempt to pinpoint personal attributions, beliefs, etc., on Tubby ("Tubby doesn't work hard" comes to mind) are bogus. Could they be true? Yes. We know nothing of his attitude, or the attitudes his players truly feel. Are we there in the locker room? How many of us have seen a large number of practices? Do we hang out with them when the day is done?

No. Our only sources of information are our speculations which derive from playing style and team performance, both laughable indicators. Or even less accurate, such as the notion that because Tayshaun made one offhand comment it somehow is representative of Tubby's system as a whole.

[blueheretic]

So you are saying that the end result of the Tubby System which is the games are indicative of nothing. I think that is just another way of saying that Tubby is the only person on the planet who is responsible for nothing.

I wonder why they pay this guy 2.5 million a year if he is responsible for nothing and his actions mean nothing.

Interesting perspective.

Good enough, I suppose. lol

[DCWildcat]

blueheretic wrote: So you are saying that the end result of the Tubby System which is the games are indicative of nothing. I think that is just another way of saying that Tubby is the only person on the planet who is responsible for nothing.

I wonder why they pay this guy 2.5 million a year if he is responsible for nothing and his actions mean nothing.

Interesting perspective.

Good enough, I suppose. lol

Is this a joke?

Otherwise, you badly need to reread my post. That interpretation is so ridiculous I'm absolutely stumped at how you got it.

Or you just straw manned my argument as usual. How's that fantasy land working out for you?

[bret1555]

poodoo wrote: Mark Blueblood wrote:

All I know is what people who have worked with him in his basketball camps tell me. The word is, if you think Tubby Smith is some easy going, just do it however you want, lackadaisical, laid back guy.....well, you could NOT be farther from the truth.





Exactly, Mark.

Too, I tend to believe those people who are actually around the program. I have heard radio hosts say that Tubby Smith is quite animated at practices. They have alsosaid that he isEXTREMELY COMPETITIVE, thathe wants to win anything he plays.

That his team did not win as many games as it could have, or should have, this past season has NOTHING to do with Tubby's desire to win, including winning championships, just as Tayshaun's answer has nothing to do with Tubby's influence. Tayshaun came into UK with that laid-back attitude and left the same way. By the way, he was a "keeper," and I happen to love him, laid-back attitude and all. :)

Also, yes, Tubby Smith won a national championship, period. Too, he won all the national coach of the year awards in 2003. Those are facts. :)On the other hand, my opinion is that Tubby Smith did not do his best in coaching last year's team, far from it. Regardless, the team's not winning more games had NOTHING to do with Coach Smith's attitude about the importance of winning games and championships. Just my humble opinion the matter.


As far as Tubby's competitiveness. . . I always heard that he was a stone-cold killer in those staff vs. media games back in 91. I know it may not be the same thing, butTubby hasalwaysreminded me of my high school football coach, a man who hates losing at ANYTHING. . . As my coach used to say "I don't care if it's f*****g Tiddly-Winks!"