Internet recruiting

[DCWildcat]

http://illinois.scout.com/2/545606.html

From the article:

Ever since the Internet became popular, college coaches have taken advantage of all the communication possibilities to aid their cause in recruiting. They have planted stories favorable to their purposes; sent copies of negative posts from fans of competing schools to recruiting targets; and used allies to call recruits claiming to be website recruiting gurus bold mine.

(bold mine)

Maybe I shouldn't be stirring this pot once again, but I think this gives a little more definitive evidence for what some (Lavender the loudest :D) have been saying.

[Will Lavender]

We're in an interesting time as far as internet message boards are concerned. We can't, especially with a fanbase as diverse as UK's, just stop complaining. Heck, if we couldn't complain, at least a little bit, then really the purpose of message boards are lost. If baseball boards are platforms for the stat geeks, and if NFL boards are fonts of fantasy info, then college boards are pedestals for good ol' ranting.

It's how those rants are phrased, I believe. We have to be fairly gentle, especially with the kids. I know some will scoff at that, but I really think you can make an aggressive and defly analytical point, yet the rhetoric can be soft and careful enough to not be used in some coach's negative recruiting scheme. In the end, it's all about the language.

The response here from some will be, "Just win, Tubby, and all will take care of itself." Which is true, in a sense. But we've won a lot, and still there is Dynasty Defenders. There are still Richard Cheekses out there who change their tune to match the winning percentage of the previous season. There are going to be complainers no matter what, and I think we've come to a time when self-policing these boards is extremely important.

[freethrow]

The use as a recruiting tool has been obvious to me for a long time now and I have had many debates about this very thing. I have little doubt that those close to, or even part of, other programs often create a phantom identity and post as a fan just to stir the pot and get the juices flying just so they can use it in recruiting battles.

[Will Lavender]

freethrow wrote: The use as a recruiting tool has been obvious to me for a long time now and I have had many debates about this very thing. I have little doubt that those close to, or even part of, other programs often create a phantom identity and post as a fan just to stir the pot and get the juices flying just so they can use it in recruiting battles.

I might buy that if not for the fact that you hear the same things in Rupp and at SEC Tournaments. Same cliches,same rhetoric, same arguments.

[Athens2005]

If I were a recruit, I would be very careful what information I believed from a message board.

It would be very easy for me to register on a rival board, and blast away at some other program.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter what people say on message boards; what I do think, though, is that we are not the only ones complaining when things go wrong.

On a similar note, I personally don't care if people are critical. And, if I were a recruit, I wouldn't be upset or surprised by this.

What would bother me, though, would be reading fans that communicate a certain level of pleasure when student athletes failed, simply because they didn't like them.

[Will Lavender]

Athens2005 wrote: If I were a recruit, I would be very careful what information I believed from a message board.

I would too. These kids however are mostly young, impressionable, black. They're being told by white millionaires (or possibly by pretty affluent and mostly white assistant coaches) that there is a lesson in the message board culture of a particular school, and they better heed that message if they want to be happy once they get to college. That message is this: the fans don't like the coach and they're critical of players if they fail.

The next question is easy: Do you want to be subjected to this?

In that situation, the kid isn't going to be filtering the information. He's definitely not going to be, as freethrow suggests, wondering if some operative from the school he's currently visiting is posing as an irate fan of another team. He's going to take the info the coach or the assistant coach gives him on its face.

In this way, the message board stuff is so easy for a coach. I wonder if anyone in our coaching staff uses it against schools like, say, North Carolina, which has a big, sometimes volatile fanbase.

[ukbob]

Negative recruiting is as old as the hills. It happened long before the Internet. It is just another tool used in the act but I wouldn't think it is the primary one. But I have no doubt it is used. To what effect? Until a recruit speaks out and says it played a part in their decision, then I doubt anyone knows for sure.

[freethrow]

IMO every possible negative is likely to be used in some way. The mere fact that recent recruits have posted as much from what they have seen and heard of message boards says it to me. Yes, there has always been some sort of negative tool used, but today a kid can go and see and read with his own eyes. It makes a more lasting impression. Some positive of course, but the ones that linger with them most are the negative ones.

As a recuiter you can send a kid an email, make it sound as though you are doing him a favor by also sending him a link to another school he is considering as if you are helping him make a wise decision. The link is to a site where you know negative threads are near the top or threads that have a ton of posts that he will likely check out and you've planted the seed you wanted to. It can be done by family and friends too. Those that happen to want to sway a recruit away from a program for their own selfish reasons.

To me, fans need to be more concerned of the damage they do. Even when their complaints are valid. Make your point and drop it rather than do the Bull Dog battle so many fans tend to do to stand their ground. If it is going to hurt UK more than help, Shut Up. The tough part is that those same fans feel they ARE making it better. :D

[Lost Highway]

If a recruit is persuaded to turn down a school because of things written on a message board they are either narrow minded or were looking for an excuse to say no to that school. For every negative word there are 10 words of praise on these message boards.

Every quality program is going to have negative things said about them on a message board. It goes with the territory. Negative things were said about Kentucky decades before message boards. It isn't anything new.

[audacious1]

DCWildcat wrote: http://illinois.scout.com/2/545606.html

From the article:

Ever since the Internet became popular, college coaches have taken advantage of all the communication possibilities to aid their cause in recruiting. They have planted stories favorable to their purposes; sent copies of negative posts from fans of competing schools to recruiting targets; and used allies to call recruits claiming to be website recruiting gurus bold mine.

(bold mine)

Maybe I shouldn't be stirring this pot once again, but I think this gives a little more definitive evidence for what some (Lavender the loudest :D) have been saying.

I agree 100%. True fans need to understand this fact and be careful (myself included) how we voice our opinions on message boards.

Doesn't mean you can never say anything negative, but HOW you say it matters.

[BrassowFan]

IMO, recruits want to play for a school whose going to win, which is what the fans want. If the team is winning on the court, this type of negative recruiting won't work.

I think that if a player comes to UK he has two, maybe three, things on his mind. 1) He wants the opportunity to play for a high profile team who will increase his chances to play in the NBA. 2) He would like to win an NCAA Championship. 3) He loves the tradiition and passion that's associated with the UK program.

IMO, all posters here, whether they support Tubby or not, want these same things. I think that in this regard, even the "negative" posts support those goals and just demonstrate to the recruit that some fans aren't patient in those achievements and if I were looking to play here, that's what I would want to hear.

[Will Lavender]

BrassowFan wrote: I think that in this regard, even the "negative" posts support those goals and just demonstrate to the recruit that some fans aren't patient in those achievements and if I were looking to play here, that's what I would want to hear.

Depends on how the posts are phrased. If they're just "impatient," then that's one thing. But if you take a short trek to some UK boards, then you see that the line between "impatience" and "anger" is being increasingly blurred -- and there are times when that anger is aimed not just at the coach, but at his players. See Blevins, JP; see Smith, Saul; see Carrier, Josh; see Sparks, Patrick; see Rondo, Rajon.

[Doug Hardin]

I think as UK fans we tend to think our own vocally critical fans are worse and more unreasonable than other schools. And maybe we are. But the occassional fans that get mad and post messages like, "Fire Tubby!!!!!111 He SUXXXX!!!111" probably don't hurt things much. They certainly exist within any major program, and I think most recruits figure this out during the recruiting process.

I think the things that are kind of unique to UK fans are the kinds of things that are most used against UK in recruiting battles. The Richard Cheeks story and the crazy fan who said during a call-in show in 2003, "I'm afraid Tubby's going to win the national title, thenwe'll be stuck with him,"made national news, and I don't know if there are similar stories about crazy UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Kansas, Michigan Stateor UConn fans. These are isolated incidents, but theyget told during games by Dick Vitale or other analysts, and then people form the opinion that, "My God, allUK fans are unreasonable, crazy rednecks." But those kinds of things that do get attention aren't anything we can control simply by being a little more thoughtful when we posts our post-loss rants.

Even still, I'm not convinced that overly demanding and borderline unreasonable fans hurt that much. Some players simply want to be in the spotlight. Maybe it's different for college athletes, but a lot of professional athletes continue to want to play for teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Cowboys, Eagles, Lakers, and Celtics even when they can get similar money from goodteams with less demanding fanbases.

[BrassowFan]

Will Lavender wrote: BrassowFan wrote: I think that in this regard, even the "negative" posts support those goals and just demonstrate to the recruit that some fans aren't patient in those achievements and if I were looking to play here, that's what I would want to hear.

Depends on how the posts are phrased. If they're just "impatient," then that's one thing. But if you take a short trek to some UK boards, then you see that the line between "impatience" and "anger" is being increasingly blurred -- and there are times when that anger is aimed not just at the coach, but at his players. See Blevins, JP; see Smith, Saul; see Carrier, Josh; see Sparks, Patrick; see Rondo, Rajon.


With the exception of Saul Smith, who I believe was (and still is) singled out for the wrong reasons, I think that the criticisms labeled against the other players were common outside of the UK fanbase, as such I don't think that it hurts us that much.

The simple fact is that the KU loss and a few other games last season have hurt UK 1,000 times more than all of the "negative" posts combined. If we win and return to an elite level, the recruits will come. If we don't and accept this idea of "parity" then we're basically saying that there's no reason to select UK over any other school. The posts online are a reaction to that, not the other way around.

[Athens2005]

Athens2005 wrote: If I were a recruit, I would be very careful what information I believed from a message board.

It would be very easy for me to register on a rival board, and blast away at some other program.


http://www.wildcatnation.net/forum/view_topic.php?id=22379&forum_id=2&page=2

[poodoo]

Tre Pryor wrote: DCWildcat wrote: http://illinois.scout.com/2/545606.html

From the article:

Ever since the Internet became popular, college coaches have taken advantage of all the communication possibilities to aid their cause in recruiting. They have planted stories favorable to their purposes; sent copies of negative posts from fans of competing schools to recruiting targets; and used allies to call recruits claiming to be website recruiting gurus bold mine.

(bold mine)

Maybe I shouldn't be stirring this pot once again, but I think this gives a little more definitive evidence for what some (Lavender the loudest :D) have been saying.

I agree 100%. True fans need to understand this fact and be careful (myself included) how we voice our opinions on message boards.

Doesn't mean you can never say anything negative, but HOW you say it matters.




I agree with both of you. Since it is evidently a fact that some coaches send negative posts of fans from schoolsthey arerecruiting against, besides a fact that recruits read message boards, it seems only logical to me that we must be CAREFUL. Why take any risk of potentially hurting recruiting, the lifeline of a program! I am definitely not saying that we must never be critical, BUT we can be careful not to beSO EXTREMELYcritical of Tubby's coaching ability and, specifically, his supposed lack of ability to develop players (an absolutely ridiculous criticism, in my opinion)and his lack of ability tolead another team to a national championship. Too, even more important, we can be most careful not toattackour very own players, especially at a personal level.That bothers me the most, frankly, and I would suspect it would bother potential recruits the most.

In regard tohow WE would react to negativecomments on a message board if we were a recruit, that's totally irrelevant, in my opinion. Most of usare mature adults.Frankly, I am rarely influenced by what I read on a messageboard, period. YET, these kids areIMPRESSIONABLE. Having taught high school youngsters, I am most aware thatkids that age, even the really intelligent kids, simplydo not make decisions remotely likewe adults make them. Theyare easily influenced. They think quite differently than we do.

Some have correctly mentioned that other school's fans are basically the same as UK fans. Thus,all schools' recruiting would besimilarly influenced. Well, I disagree. The PASSION of UK basketball fans is a wonderful thing.Yet, that same passion CANsometimes be potentially harmful when it comes to recruiting. Do I think allbasketball teams' message boards have the same fervor as UK boards? No,I do not. That is where the danger lies, and that is why we UK fans must be especially CAREFUlwhen we are critical, as these two posters are saying. Folks sometimes hurt the ones they love. We all LOVE UK basketball. We must be vert CAREFUL not tohurt what we so love. Sure, if we win enough games, most of the negativity subsides. Yet, we cannot help the coach and team win games. We can only take care of OURSELVES. :)Just my humble opinion on the matter.

[bluegrassking]

People are frustrated with Richard Cheeks because he articualted facts and rather than deal with those facts and come to the obvious conclussion that it is time to switch horses, they'd rather ride this one (and the program) in to the ground.

The facts hurt us not those that relay them.

Change the facts and the perception will follow.

[Lost Highway]

If Tubby could sign a Five Star power forward, the internet message board tone would change in a New York minute. But as long as Tubby Smith continues to strike out, fans will show their frustrations by the only means available, the internet message boards. That is the way it is and all schools have to face it. No good program with fans who care is immune.

When Florida hired Ron Zook there was a website call fireronzook.com that appeared overnight. Zook still managed to sign some of the best high school talent in the country including a pretty fair quarterback out of North Carolina. The Tarheels were equally vicious against you know who.

[WildcatDan]

bluegrassking wrote: People are frustrated with Richard Cheeks because he articualted facts and rather than deal with those facts and come to the obvious conclussion that it is time to switch horses, they'd rather ride this one (and the program) in to the ground.

The facts hurt us not those that relay them.

Change the facts and the perception will follow.




A couple of things to address here:

First - perhaps the "conclusion" is not quite as obvious to others as it is to you and Mr. Cheeks. He presumed to speak for all UK fans and THAT is what pissed people off.

Second: UK is not going to fire Tubby Smith before next season starts.Therefore, the ad that Cheeks tried to have printed would have done NOTHING poitive for the program. All it would do (and basically didwith thepress coverage the attempt got)is further turn off potential recruits, turn off any potential replacement coach, dishearten our current players, andgivecoachesopposing us in recruiting battles more fodder forbeating us to the top flight players.

I think the timing of theattempted adis what screamedMr. Cheeks' agenda from the top ofa mountain.If he tried to have it placed right at the end of lastseasonthen itwould have made more sense - there would have been time for Tubby to be replaced. But he waited until mid summer when preparing for next year was well underway and recruiting was going hot and heavy.

If this man TRUELY wanted what was best forthe UK basketball program he would not embarrass them (and US as fans) with atactic like this. SHAME ON YOU Mr. Cheeks. Your type of support we can do without.

[BrassowFan]

WildcatDan,

First, let me say that I agree with your post, that tactic was not a positive thing for UK and there was nothing to be gained by doing it other than to demonstrate personal frustration and I think there's better forums for that.

Saying that, I have to say that based on the post here at WCN, those who want Tubby fired really don't have any "good" time to vent their frustrations. Personally, I'm not one of them however I do recognize a trend in the responses.



If someone wants him fired at the beginning of the season... they're jumping the gun, the season has barely started.

If someone wants him fired in the middle of the season... same response but the season is only half over. The complaint must not come from a real fan but one who has given up on the team.

If it comes at tournament time, Tubby has demonstrated that he can win, an OT loss in the elite 8, a championship banner hanging from the rafters. Criticism like this shouldn't happen during the season as it hurts team morale.

If it comes in the offseason, in May or June... what do you expect him to do now, the season hasn't started. These negative comments are hurting recruiting.

If it comes in the offseason, after June... Tubby isn't going anywhere and will at least return for one more season. Criticism such as this isn't helping our recruiting efforts and you may as well support the guy as that's the only option that you have for next year.

Again, I'm not one who thinks that he should be fired, but I do think change would be a good thing. I had hoped that the changes would happen at the assistant level in this offseason but it doesn't appear that's going to happen. I just notice that there is a large contingent of fans who want the man to be fired, and they're well represented here at WCN and other sites, and according to many, there's not a good time for them to voice their concern.

IMO, I think there is a strongly represented group of fans who love Tubby and use these tactics to debate his tenure rather than to discuss the facts of the situation. I think that Tubby has some positives & negatives, and that he's been at times an incredible coach, however he has some weaknesses that until he demonstrates that he acknowledges them and is doing something to change, the criticisms will persist. Fans of other programs make the same comments and to act as if we can suppress them here and it will somehow improve recruiting, IMO, is bogus. He is the highest paid coach in the land and IMO that begs criticism when recruiting, the lifeblood of the program, has and continues to slip.

[WildcatDan]

You are reading me wrong - I did not mean to imply that there was EVER a good time for a tactic like Cheeks used, just that the timing did not even make sense IF he really was trying to support the program. At the same time I did not mean to even slightly suggest that people should not express their concerns about the program.... just that there is CLEARLY a better way of doing it than the medium that he picked.

The door swings both ways I guess... those that want Tubby gone apparently feel that no matter when they bring their concerns it is the "wrong time" for those who do not share their opinion. On the other hand, those who do tend to be more positive are attacked for their viewpoint with questions on "what will it take to make you switch your viewpoint" and real or implied accusations of being ridiculous or stupid.

The funny thing is... disagreement and discussion of difference in viewpoint is what makes a board like this tick. We just hope that everyone can do so in a respectful manner.

[BrassowFan]

WildcatDan wrote: You are reading me wrong - I did not mean to imply that there was EVER a good time for a tactic like Cheeks used, just that the timing did not even make sense IF he really was trying to support the program. At the same time I did not mean to even slightly suggest that people should not express their concerns about the program.... just that there is CLEARLY a better way of doing it than the medium that he picked.

The door swings both ways I guess... those that want Tubby gone apparently feel that no matter when they bring their concerns it is the "wrong time" for those who do not share their opinion. On the other hand, those who do tend to be more positive are attacked for their viewpoint with questions on "what will it take to make you switch your viewpoint" and real or implied accusations of being ridiculous or stupid.

The funny thing is... disagreement and discussion of difference in viewpoint is what makes a board like this tick. We just hope that everyone can do so in a respectful manner.


I'm not saying that you personally do not believe that there's a good time for dissent, just that as a collective group, those who do voice their concerns are always having to prove their loyalty to the program based on one of the responses that I listed. My point was just to point that out and not to single you out as much. I apologize if that's the way that it came across.

[WildcatDan]

BrassowFan wrote: I'm not saying that you personally do not believe that there's a good time for dissent, just that as a collective group, those who do voice their concerns are always having to prove their loyalty to the program based on one of the responses that I listed. My point was just to point that out and not to single you out as much. I apologize if that's the way that it came across.


I am not sure I would agree with that, at least on the grand scale.... those who go back and forth the most are posters who hold one extreme view or another. Some folks seem to support Tubby and ignore any flaws that he has. Some folks are exactly the opposite and ignore anything good that Tubby has done (or could potentially do). These two groups are the ones that butt heads the most. Those left in the middle that can see both sides of the issue are more likely to be able to voice their concerns and not have their loyalty questioned.

I personally hate it when anyone's loyalty is questioned. Who are we to decide who is a "true fan" or not? Only the person making the post can know whether they really do want what is best for the program or not. Of course, what is best for the program is a matter of opinion as well, so that just confuses things further.

[phoenix]

BrassowFan wrote: .. I just notice that there is a large contingent of fans who want the man to be fired, and they're well represented here at WCN and other sites, and according to many, there's not a good time for them to voice their concern.

He is the highest paid coach in the land and IMO that begs criticism when recruiting, the lifeblood of the program, has and continues to slip.


The first statement is not true, imo. I don't think it is a large contingent at all. I think it is a vocal and belligerent minority, and frankly they are overrrepresented because of their loudness and their belligerent points. If Tubby had two seasons like the last one their tactics and message would rise less resistance, but the facts are that Tubby comes off 3 very good years as a college basketball coach, and the program comes off 3 very good years as a program, maybe not the height of what some wish for, but still, darn good and hard to top.

It also is debatable as to how far the lifeblood of the program has actually slippped. Once again that is speculation unjustified by results. Maybe next year they will have some firm ground to stand on, or be shut up again, but currently they are crying wolf, no wolf in site.

I don't think that Tubby and the UK basketball program(and they are tied together on the national scene, to most observers)should be dragged down because of the tyranny of a vocal minority, particularly a group that starts from an irrational point of view in terms of what is acceptable and also what is realistically achievable in college basketball on a regular basis.

[Will Lavender]

phoenix wrote: BrassowFan wrote: .. I just notice that there is a large contingent of fans who want the man to be fired, and they're well represented here at WCN and other sites, and according to many, there's not a good time for them to voice their concern.

He is the highest paid coach in the land and IMO that begs criticism when recruiting, the lifeblood of the program, has and continues to slip.


The first statement is not true, imo. I don't think it is a large contingent at all. I think it is a vocal and belligerent minority, and frankly they are overrrepresented because of their loudness and their belligerent points. If Tubby had two seasons like the last one their tactics and message would rise less resistance, but the facts are that Tubby comes off 3 very good years as a college basketball coach, and the program comes off 3 very good years as a program, maybe not the height of what some wish for, but still, darn good and hard to top.

It also is debatable as to how far the lifeblood of the program has actually slippped. Once again that is speculation unjustified by results. Maybe next year they will have some firm ground to stand on, or be shut up again, but currently they are crying wolf, no wolf in site.

I don't think that Tubby and the UK basketball program(and they are tied together on the national scene, to most observers)should be dragged down because of the tyranny of a vocal minority, particularly a group that starts from an irrational point of view in terms of what is acceptable and also what is realistically achievable in college basketball on a regular basis.


I pretty much agree. We're still talking about a minority in the literal sense of the word.

But.

I think you've probably got 25% of the fanbase who are adamantly opposed to Smith and 25% who are adamantly for him. That would leave another 50%. That last group, the 50%, are not folks who inhabit messsage boards. They're somewhat passionate, but they don't think about the coach or even the team in their daily lives. This 50% can be swayed easily by what happens on the court. After a winning season, those first 50% are not swayed one way or another; but after that same season, that other 50% would be. Likewise after a losing season.

So that's where we are now. The original 25%, that "beligerent minority," is still there, of course. But now you have that 50%, the common fan, who are beginning to move a little. Some of these folks have felt the need to sign up for a message board because their "everday" fandom has suddenly changed. Some people in that group are angry after last season. If Tubby wins, though, he can quiet this bunch.

However, with another poor season, and that 25% who are adamantly for Smith will begin to move, and that's when it might get real ugly.

[BrassowFan]

phoenix wrote: BrassowFan wrote: .. I just notice that there is a large contingent of fans who want the man to be fired, and they're well represented here at WCN and other sites, and according to many, there's not a good time for them to voice their concern.

He is the highest paid coach in the land and IMO that begs criticism when recruiting, the lifeblood of the program, has and continues to slip.


The first statement is not true, imo. I don't think it is a large contingent at all. I think it is a vocal and belligerent minority, and frankly they are overrrepresented because of their loudness and their belligerent points. If Tubby had two seasons like the last one their tactics and message would rise less resistance, but the facts are that Tubby comes off 3 very good years as a college basketball coach, and the program comes off 3 very good years as a program, maybe not the height of what some wish for, but still, darn good and hard to top.

It also is debatable as to how far the lifeblood of the program has actually slippped. Once again that is speculation unjustified by results. Maybe next year they will have some firm ground to stand on, or be shut up again, but currently they are crying wolf, no wolf in site.

I don't think that Tubby and the UK basketball program(and they are tied together on the national scene, to most observers)should be dragged down because of the tyranny of a vocal minority, particularly a group that starts from an irrational point of view in terms of what is acceptable and also what is realistically achievable in college basketball on a regular basis.


I guess we have to agree to disagree. I know that about half the UK fans that I spend time around would love to see Tubby replaced. Maybe they're over-representative of the fan base but when I've gone to other parties for UK games with mixed crowds, I often hear the same things. Patience is running thin and IMO if he doesn't do better this year, I would bet that it will be a not-so-silent majority ratherthan a large contingent.

[BrassowFan]

Will Lavender wrote: I think you've probably got 25% of the fanbase who are adamantly opposed to Smith and 25% who are adamantly for him. That would leave another 50%. That last group, the 50%, are not folks who inhabit messsage boards. They're somewhat passionate, but they don't think about the coach or even the team in their daily lives. This 50% can be swayed easily by what happens on the court. After a winning season, those first 50% are not swayed one way or another; but after that same season, that other 50% would be. Likewise after a losing season.

So that's where we are now. The original 25%, that "beligerent minority," is still there, of course. But now you have that 50%, the common fan, who are beginning to move a little. Some of these folks have felt the need to sign up for a message board because their "everday" fandom has suddenly changed. Some people in that group are angry after last season. If Tubby wins, though, he can quiet this bunch.

However, with another poor season, and that 25% who are adamantly for Smith will begin to move, and that's when it might get real ugly.




I can agree with that.

I've never stated that it's a majority of the fans, just a "large contingent". To dismiss this group as nothing more than a "vocal and belligerent minority" is a mistake as the drums will be louder if this season isn't an immediate turnaround from last year.

[WildcatDan]

There is no doubt that there will be a lot of folks changing sides on this argument if the results this year mirror what happened last year. Hopefully the opposite will happen and Tubby will restore some folks faith in him and the Wildcat basketball program.