If Joker Keeps the Job...

[bret1555]

This has been mentioned before, but I think it bears discussing again...

Assuming Joker keeps his job (and that is certainly not a foregone conclusion), there will almost certainly be staff changes. Some noise around the program, even before the season, was that the remaining "Brooks" holdovers would be gone. Assuming that is the case, the staff would look like this:

HC - Joker
OC - ???
DC - Rick Minter
QBs - ???
RBs - Steve Pardue
OL - Mike Summers
WRs - Tee Martin
TEs/Spec. Teams - Greg Nord
DL - David Turner
LBs - ???
DBs - ???
Rec. Coordinator -

Many have floated the idea of Neal Brown (UK kid, current OC at Texas Tech) as a possibility at OC. I think this is an intriguing idea - certainly a good compromise between the pro-Joker camp and the Leach proponents. A staff with Neal Brown as the OC would look something like this.

HC - Joker
OC/WR - Neal Brown
DC/LB - Rick Minter
QBs/Recruiting Coordinator - Tee Martin
RBs - Steve Pardue
OL - Mike Summers
TEs/Spec Teams - Greg Nord
DL - David Turner
DBs - ???

Let me preface this by saying: I absolutely think that Chuck Smith should remain on staff -- he has produced a lot of really good linebackers at UK and he is really the ONLY coach on staff with real ties with Ky. High School football coaches... If the thought is to clean out the staff regardless, I would at least make him Director of Football Operations, in charge of outreach with HS football coaches. Don't know if he would take it, though - he is a COACH.

That said - what would the consensus be on the staff just listed? Would that be enough of a signal that Joker wants to change things.

[Brian McCat]

I think that you have to promote Tee Martin to QB coach. It's what he's good at. Neal Brown is intriguing. Kentucky alum comes back after success elsewhere.

TBH Mike Leach might latch onto a Neal Brown anyway.

[Dwight Schrute]

The problem is that barring a miracle, next year's going to be just as rough and it's going to be next to impossible to bring in a coordinator worth his salt for a year. Who wants to be the new deck chair on the sinking ship?

I think it's possible that Tee Martin gets promoted to OC after the search isn't very productive.

[Matt Dillon]

The problem is that barring a miracle, next year's going to be just as rough and it's going to be next to impossible to bring in a coordinator worth his salt for a year. Who wants to be the new deck chair on the sinking ship?

I think it's possible that Tee Martin gets promoted to OC after the search isn't very productive.

I agree. I see Tee as OC and QB coach next season.

[Los Gatos]

I agree. I see Tee as OC and QB coach next season.


Agree.

[bret1555]

Okay... But my questions was: How would members feel about this staff?

BTW - I did have Tee Martin at QBs coach. I personally would feel more comfortable with an experienced play-caller at OC, rather than Tee. Not saying he won't be a really good OC, someday.

[Los Gatos]

Okay... But my questions was: How would members feel about this staff?

BTW - I did have Tee Martin at QBs coach. I personally would feel more comfortable with an experienced play-caller at OC, rather than Tee. Not saying he won't be a really good OC, someday.

Before making a decision regarding Sanders, I'd want to know his part in the Newton at QB experience. Was this his idea or did Joker make the decision?

If he was the driving force behind keeping Newton as the starting QB, I have no problem letting him go. On the other hand, if he was opposed to it and was over ruled Joker, I would cut him some slack.

[Dwight Schrute]

Okay... But my questions was: How would members feel about this staff?

BTW - I did have Tee Martin at QBs coach. I personally would feel more comfortable with an experienced play-caller at OC, rather than Tee. Not saying he won't be a really good OC, someday.

This member would feel very 'meh' about it. As I said, it would be equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. I don't really feel like promoting our WR coach - a weak link in a poor offense already - to anything signals any desire to change.

Furthermore, Randy Sanders isn't the problem in this offense. We're getting good looks at the end zone and the play calling has been fine - execution has been poor. If Sanders is gone, I'd rather see an experienced play caller in as well, but I don't see how that fixes any of our fundamental problems.

[Matt Dillon]

This member would feel very 'meh' about it. As I said, it would be equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. I don't really feel like promoting our WR coach - a weak link in a poor offense already - to anything signals any desire to change.

Furthermore, Randy Sanders isn't the problem in this offense. We're getting good looks at the end zone and the play calling has been fine - execution has been poor. If Sanders is gone, I'd rather see an experienced play caller in as well, but I don't see how that fixes any of our fundamental problems.

:thumbup:

[Doctor Zhivago]

Before making a decision regarding Sanders, I'd want to know his part in the Newton at QB experience. Was this his idea or did Joker make the decision?

If he was the driving force behind keeping Newton as the starting QB, I have no problem letting him go. On the other hand, if he was opposed to it and was over ruled Joker, I would cut him some slack.

Yeah... What he said!

[wizard]

I don't think it is as much play calling as it is coaching leadership. Joker lost this team a long time ago. don't matter what insightful plays are call, if the players don't have the heart to go to war, ain't going to matter.

[Watchtower]

The only coach I would keep is Minter and then let him decide who on the Defensive staff stays. Chuck Smith has done a good job as LB coach considering the talent he has to work with.

I don't know why we keep Tee Martin. He hasn't coached the receivers very well at all.

I think Minter as DC and Leach as HC would be a good combo.

[ridgerunner]

How many years does our Joke have before his contract is up? I fear we will have him until then

[justice4cat]

This has been mentioned before, but I think it bears discussing again...

Assuming Joker keeps his job (and that is certainly not a foregone conclusion), there will almost certainly be staff changes. Some noise around the program, even before the season, was that the remaining "Brooks" holdovers would be gone. Assuming that is the case, the staff would look like this:

HC - Joker
OC - ???
DC - Rick Minter
QBs - ???
RBs - Steve Pardue
OL - Mike Summers
WRs - Tee Martin
TEs/Spec. Teams - Greg Nord
DL - David Turner
LBs - ???
DBs - ???
Rec. Coordinator -

Many have floated the idea of Neal Brown (UK kid, current OC at Texas Tech) as a possibility at OC. I think this is an intriguing idea - certainly a good compromise between the pro-Joker camp and the Leach proponents. A staff with Neal Brown as the OC would look something like this.

HC - Joker
OC/WR - Neal Brown
DC/LB - Rick Minter
QBs/Recruiting Coordinator - Tee Martin
RBs - Steve Pardue
OL - Mike Summers
TEs/Spec Teams - Greg Nord
DL - David Turner
DBs - ???

Let me preface this by saying: I absolutely think that Chuck Smith should remain on staff -- he has produced a lot of really good linebackers at UK and he is really the ONLY coach on staff with real ties with Ky. High School football coaches... If the thought is to clean out the staff regardless, I would at least make him Director of Football Operations, in charge of outreach with HS football coaches. Don't know if he would take it, though - he is a COACH.

That said - what would the consensus be on the staff just listed? Would that be enough of a signal that Joker wants to change things.

Joe wouldn't let Neal have complete control of the offense... I honestly don't see the point of compromise, for such an incompetent staff and head coach that have left us with a humiliating season.. FIRE THE WHOLE STAFF at the end of the year... No one outside of Kentucky, and this may include some in Kentucky, care about UK football... Fire joker and hire a name coach, leach, that would actually come here.

[kynut]

If (big if) there is a head coaching change the new coach must be allowed to choose his assistants. It might be that he would choose to keep Minter and Smith or any of the current assistants but I can't see him keeping any of the offensive coaches unless he wants Martin as a recruiter.

I agree that Minter and Smith might be good to keep if they wanted to stay, but that will be up to the new coach if we get one. I think Leach and Minter would be a nice combination and put to rest the idea some have that Leach doesn't care about defense. Minter's defense showed yesterday and performed admirally in spite on the field position the offense put them in. I hope that is a hint of what's to come with Minter.

kynut

[BigBlue75]

My observation in all of this is at this point in his career, Joker isn't ready to take on the responsibilities of being a head coach and maintaining oversight of the whole program. He paid his dues by working his way up through the coaching ranks at various high profile programs, and he earned the opportunity to take his shot at running a program. I didn't have a problem with his hiring at the time and I'm not going to do the "Well, in hindsight.." thing and start bemoaning how he was a bad hire to begin with. He earned a shot and now it is what it is. Now, if he had taken things over last year by coming over from another program, there might be more of an inclination to give him the benefit of the doubt, but that's not the case.

Joker is like a lot of other college coaches. He is GREAT when he has one specific area to focus on and nothing else. When all he has to do is concentrate on that one area and bring that to the total game preparation, he fits in well. His first tenure as HC is not the first that's not worked out, and it certainly won't be the last. It doesn't mean the man is stupid or he suddenly forgot all he's learned over the years. It just shows that he still needs some more seasoning before he takes on running the whole operation.

Joker is to be commended for his on-going loyalty to the UK program but it's time to close the book on this saga and move on.

[justice4cat]

My observation in all of this is at this point in his career, Joker isn't ready to take on the responsibilities of being a head coach and maintaining oversight of the whole program. He paid his dues by working his way up through the coaching ranks at various high profile programs, and he earned the opportunity to take his shot at running a program. I didn't have a problem with his hiring at the time and I'm not going to do the "Well, in hindsight.." thing and start bemoaning how he was a bad hire to begin with. He earned a shot and now it is what it is. Now, if he had taken things over last year by coming over from another program, there might be more of an inclination to give him the benefit of the doubt, but that's not the case.

Joker is like a lot of other college coaches. He is GREAT when he has one specific area to focus on and nothing else. When all he has to do is concentrate on that one area and bring that to the total game preparation, he fits in well. His first tenure as HC is not the first that's not worked out, and it certainly won't be the last. It doesn't mean the man is stupid or he suddenly forgot all he's learned over the years. It just shows that he still needs some more seasoning before he takes on running the whole operation.

Joker is to be commended for his on-going loyalty to the UK program but it's time to close the book on this saga and move on.

i agree with you...

[hoboat33]

Joker as head coach is a prime example of The Peter Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle).

[bret1555]

This member would feel very 'meh' about it. As I said, it would be equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. I don't really feel like promoting our WR coach - a weak link in a poor offense already - to anything signals any desire to change.

Furthermore, Randy Sanders isn't the problem in this offense. We're getting good looks at the end zone and the play calling has been fine - execution has been poor. If Sanders is gone, I'd rather see an experienced play caller in as well, but I don't see how that fixes any of our fundamental problems.

There is nothing I said about "promoting our WR Coach." My proposal would make him the QBs coach. The Offensive Coordinator would be Neal Brown.

[Matt Dillon]

If (big if) there is a head coaching change the new coach must be allowed to choose his assistants. It might be that he would choose to keep Minter and Smith or any of the current assistants but I can't see him keeping any of the offensive coaches unless he wants Martin as a recruiter.

I agree that Minter and Smith might be good to keep if they wanted to stay, but that will be up to the new coach if we get one. I think Leach and Minter would be a nice combination and put to rest the idea some have that Leach doesn't care about defense. Minter's defense showed yesterday and performed admirally in spite on the field position the offense put them in. I hope that is a hint of what's to come with Minter.

kynut

Since Leach's off. relies so heavily on the passing game, if he were hired, I'd like to see him keep Randy Sanders on to develope QB's, if for no other reason.

[Dwight Schrute]

There is nothing I said about "promoting our WR Coach." My proposal would make him the QBs coach. The Offensive Coordinator would be Neal Brown.

I clearly addressed it in my first post - why do we think an outsider is going to come in when it seems almost forgone that if Joker isn't fired this year he'll be let go next year?

[Los Gatos]

I clearly addressed it in my first post - why do we think an outsider is going to come in when it seems almost forgone that if Joker isn't fired this year he'll be let go next year?

It would be like a member of the Carpathia's crew accepting a job on the Titanic when they arrived on the scene?

[wildcatdon]

If Joker is back,I wont be...I sent Dr .Capalouto an email stating as much
and he sent me a nice response..But it was the only thing he could say..No way
he can tip his hand...I sure hope he believes the emails he is getting..

[bret1555]

I clearly addressed it in my first post - why do we think an outsider is going to come in when it seems almost forgone that if Joker isn't fired this year he'll be let go next year?

I am not sure it is a foregone conclusion... The current team has 48 Freshmen/Redshirt Freshmen on it, of a possible 85 scholarships - lots of room for improvement. If he isn't gone this season, I think there is a chance for marked improvement, next season. Then again, I have never been as down on Joker as some others. Although there are obviously issues for this team, I think the struggles this season have more to do with empty 08 & 09 recruiting classes than they do a systemic coaching failure. I certainly understand those that do, however.

And I don't think characterizing Neal Brown as an outsider is accurate -- he is a UK alum and grew up in central Kentucky (Boyle County). So many fans get breathless at the thought of Mike Leach coming to UK, I thought that Brown would be a more likely scenario that might placate those with a consuming thirst for an "innovative" offense.

[kynut]

I am not sure it is a foregone conclusion... The current team has 48 Freshmen/Redshirt Freshmen on it, of a possible 85 scholarships - lots of room for improvement. If he isn't gone this season, I think there is a chance for marked improvement, next season. Then again, I have never been as down on Joker as some others. Although there are obviously issues for this team, I think the struggles this season have more to do with empty 08 & 09 recruiting classes than they do a systemic coaching failure. I certainly understand those that do, however.

And I don't think characterizing Neal Brown as an outsider is accurate -- he is a UK alum and grew up in central Kentucky (Boyle County). So many fans get breathless at the thought of Mike Leach coming to UK, I thought that Brown would be a more likely scenario that might placate those with a consuming thirst for an "innovative" offense.

Before the season started those empty 08 and 09 classes were being bragged about, especially by our head coach, and, if I remember correctly some of your posts -by you. The season ahead was looking all rosy especially to the homers. Now, a scant three months later, we are losing and you are blaming a lack of talent. How did all those big time recruits sour so quickly?

I don't think anyone is married to an innovative offense just to be innovative. What we would like is a "successful" offense that can win us some quality wins, or at least not embarrass us (as has already happened four or five times this year).

You are right about one thing though, I, just like most UK fans, am certainly "breathless" about the thought of Mike Leach coming to UK. :thumbup:

kynut

[jwmann2]

Joker will be back. He needs more time. It's the culture that has to change in order for this team to be competitive. Kids want to stay close to home for football. Kentuckys football talent is weak thats why they pursue kids in Georgia.
And why are they leaving Georgia? Because Georgia and Georgia Tech don't want them. FACT.

[bret1555]

Before the season started those empty 08 and 09 classes were being bragged about, especially by our head coach, and, if I remember correctly some of your posts -by you. The season ahead was looking all rosy especially to the homers. Now, a scant three months later, we are losing and you are blaming a lack of talent. How did all those big time recruits sour so quickly?

I don't think anyone is married to an innovative offense just to be innovative. What we would like is a "successful" offense that can win us some quality wins, or at least not embarrass us (as has already happened four or five times this year).

You are right about one thing though, I, just like most UK fans, am certainly "breathless" about the thought of Mike Leach coming to UK. :thumbup:

kynut

Not sure that I ever bragged specifically about the 08 and 09 classes, but okay. By "empty classes," I mean that there has been a terrific amount of attrition -- there are some good players left from them, and a couple of so-so players, but for whatever reason, many are gone. Each of those classes looked pretty good when they signed, but have turned out to have much less of an impact than expected.

I absolutely agree that this season's offense has been atrocious... About as bad as it is possible for an offense to be. However, it is not an issue of the offensive system. By and large, UK has had good-to-very good offenses under Joker/Sanders.

At any rate -- it sounds as if no one really would like the idea of Neal Brown at UK? Strange, I thought that it would really get some interest.

[Dwight Schrute]

At any rate -- it sounds as if no one really would like the idea of Neal Brown at UK? Strange, I thought that it would really get some interest.

I don't think that's it - I think the perception is that Neal Brown wouldn't have any interest in attaching himself to what is presumed to be a sinking ship. Maybe we're all wrong and Joker will turn it around next year - I'd love to be. But the problems seem to go deeper than just a lack of talent, and that's why it seems hard to be very optimistic.

[Dwight Schrute]

Joker will be back. He needs more time. It's the culture that has to change in order for this team to be competitive. Kids want to stay close to home for football. Kentuckys football talent is weak thats why they pursue kids in Georgia.
And why are they leaving Georgia? Because Georgia and Georgia Tech don't want them. FACT.

File this under "duhhhh." These problems have been well chronicled - but that would be a reason why we're only winning 6-8 games a year. The problems on the field go a lot deeper than this.

Also - how much time should Joker get? He has been here since Rich Brooks' arrival and was named head coach in waiting two seasons before Brooks' retirement. This program is his as much as any one else's.

[kyjones]

Why would any decent assistent coach come to KY next year knowing that Joker may be out after that? Would love to get'em but reality?????????

[jwb]

File this under "duhhhh." These problems have been well chronicled - but that would be a reason why we're only winning 6-8 games a year. The problems on the field go a lot deeper than this.

Also - how much time should Joker get? He has been here since Rich Brooks' arrival and was named head coach in waiting two seasons before Brooks' retirement. This program is his as much as any one else's.

Let me start this by 1st saying that I am undecided on whether Joker should be back next year and if anything I am leaning toward a regime change. There are obvious coaching deficiency's that have occurred this year and the end of last year.

With that being said it bothers me that Joker doesn't get ANY slack because he has been here longer than 2 years. If that is the case and that is held against him then Joker should get credit for the 5 bowl games in a row and the big wins on the road at Auburn and Georgia when we had no business making a bowl game at all. So he missed a bowl 1 out of 6 years. Wouldn't most coaches get cut some slack for ONE, just ONE bad season?

I don't know if the right choice is to give Joker more time. However I do know that people twist numbers and facts to support what they want to see happen with the team. Just be consistent. You can't just hold Joker being here against him while at the same time giving him no credit for one of the top 5 runs in UK football history.

[Dwight Schrute]

Let me start this by 1st saying that I am undecided on whether Joker should be back next year and if anything I am leaning toward a regime change. There are obvious coaching deficiency's that have occurred this year and the end of last year.

With that being said it bothers me that Joker doesn't get ANY slack because he has been here longer than 2 years. If that is the case and that is held against him then Joker should get credit for the 5 bowl games in a row and the big wins on the road at Auburn and Georgia when we had no business making a bowl game at all. So he missed a bowl 1 out of 6 years. Wouldn't most coaches get cut some slack for ONE, just ONE bad season?

I don't know if the right choice is to give Joker more time. However I do know that people twist numbers and facts to support what they want to see happen with the team. Just be consistent. You can't just hold Joker being here against him while at the same time giving him no credit for one of the top 5 runs in UK football history.

Like it or not, that's just the way it is. A head coach in waiting is designed to avoid a drop-off and to keep things as similar to the way they are as possible. You get to recruit and slowly begin to put your touch on the program as you prepare to take the reins - but the tradeoff of that is that you don't get the traditional honeymoon period you would get if you had come in from outside last season.

I don't think that's a bad point - and clearly Joker's aptitude and role in the last five years is what got him the job. But he was given at least two years to prepare for this role to prevent this kind of drop off, and a drop off is precisely what happened.

Anyway, I'm not taking away from his aptitude or performance as OC or WR coach and recruiting coordinator, but he let most of the previous staff go and hired most of the current staff and recruited EVERYONE on this team. But now he's judged on his program management abilities after having everything in place to his liking, and so far he has failed, IMO.

[wildcatdon]

Have you heard of the term "lame duck"..That is what Joker will be next year..We wont be able to recruit and no coach will come here as an asst knowing he will probably only be here one year..Why put off until tomorrow what you can do today? After the UT game make the change and announce it immediately..Then start the interviews and you can probably save the recruiting class with a good hire..

[jwb]

Like it or not, that's just the way it is. A head coach in waiting is designed to avoid a drop-off and to keep things as similar to the way they are as possible. You get to recruit and slowly begin to put your touch on the program as you prepare to take the reins - but the tradeoff of that is that you don't get the traditional honeymoon period you would get if you had come in from outside last season.

I don't think that's a bad point - and clearly Joker's aptitude and role in the last five years is what got him the job. But he was given at least two years to prepare for this role to prevent this kind of drop off, and a drop off is precisely what happened.

Anyway, I'm not taking away from his aptitude or performance as OC or WR coach and recruiting coordinator, but he let most of the previous staff go and hired most of the current staff and recruited EVERYONE on this team. But now he's judged on his program management abilities after having everything in place to his liking, and so far he has failed, IMO.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Personally I get the feeling that he doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach but if Brooks was still here and was having this bad season I still feel like people would be calling for his head when every coach has a down season or 2. Sports are cyclical and a down year was inevitable at some point.


Have you heard of the term "lame duck"..That is what Joker will be next year..We wont be able to recruit and no coach will come here as an asst knowing he will probably only be here one year..Why put off until tomorrow what you can do today? After the UT game make the change and announce it immediately..Then start the interviews and you can probably save the recruiting class with a good hire..

I don't think you fire Joker at the end of the season unless you have a coach already lined up. I hope Mitch wouldn't let UK get caught with their pants down without an obvious up grade as coach especially if you fire your coach after 2 years. The only way you fire Joker is if you have a big name coach that you can only get if you fire the trigger at that moment.

[Matt Dillon]

Have you heard of the term "lame duck"..That is what Joker will be next year..We wont be able to recruit and no coach will come here as an asst knowing he will probably only be here one year..Why put off until tomorrow what you can do today? After the UT game make the change and announce it immediately..Then start the interviews and you can probably save the recruiting class with a good hire..

:thumbup::thumbup:

[Dwight Schrute]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Personally I get the feeling that he doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach but if Brooks was still here and was having this bad season I still feel like people would be calling for his head when every coach has a down season or 2. Sports are cyclical and a down year was inevitable at some point.

It's hard to say. I think Rich Brooks would get a bit more slack because of the last 5 years, but you're right, there would be a number of fans asking "is he too old?"

I think this goes farther than a down year, though. We just don't look like we know what we're doing out there. I think the defense has played admirably at times this year, but over all, we don't look like a well coached team.

[Matt Dillon]

Let me start this by 1st saying that I am undecided on whether Joker should be back next year and if anything I am leaning toward a regime change. There are obvious coaching deficiency's that have occurred this year and the end of last year.

With that being said it bothers me that Joker doesn't get ANY slack because he has been here longer than 2 years. If that is the case and that is held against him then Joker should get credit for the 5 bowl games in a row and the big wins on the road at Auburn and Georgia when we had no business making a bowl game at all. So he missed a bowl 1 out of 6 years. Wouldn't most coaches get cut some slack for ONE, just ONE bad season?

I don't know if the right choice is to give Joker more time. However I do know that people twist numbers and facts to support what they want to see happen with the team. Just be consistent. You can't just hold Joker being here against him while at the same time giving him no credit for one of the top 5 runs in UK football history.

I'm not using any numbers and facts, when I say I think he should be sent packing after the ewe tee game, if Mitch can find a suitable replacement before then. Let the next HC decide who, if anyone, from the current assistants he wants to retain. More than facts, and numbers, I'm basing my thinking on what I perceive to be the fact that, going back to the ewe tee game last season until the present with few exceptions, this team has seemed unprepared, unmotivated, undisciplined and generally disinterested. To me, that represents poor coaching. As head man, the buck stops with Joker. I just feel he's in over his head and, if he won't resign, he should be fired.

[hoboat33]

With that being said it bothers me that Joker doesn't get ANY slack because he has been here longer than 2 years. If that is the case and that is held against him then Joker should get credit for the 5 bowl games in a row and the big wins on the road at Auburn and Georgia when we had no business making a bowl game at all. So he missed a bowl 1 out of 6 years. Wouldn't most coaches get cut some slack for ONE, just ONE bad season?

Very good point and I honestly hadn't looked at it that way. Unfortunately, after considering the past several years it almost strengthens the argument to have a change. Since Joker assumed the HC position there has been a quantifiable drop in the teams' success and performance but really I can think of this starting before Joker assumed the helm. How many times while Brooks was still HC did Kentucky come out flat at the beginning of the game, have bizarre offensive calls, miss incredible opportunities, show horrible technique, blow clock management or otherwise shoot themselves in the foot? Pretty damn often. Joker had a significant hand in those teams, too.

[I. Melvin]

Compare Petrino's sideline to ours. (Watch for this against LSU.)

The Hawgs are as organized as an German SS exercise. Our sideline looks like a family reunion with everybody meandering around focused on a myriad of different topics.

[kynut]

Not sure that I ever bragged specifically about the 08 and 09 classes, but okay. By "empty classes," I mean that there has been a terrific amount of attrition -- there are some good players left from them, and a couple of so-so players, but for whatever reason, many are gone. Each of those classes looked pretty good when they signed, but have turned out to have much less of an impact than expected.

I absolutely agree that this season's offense has been atrocious... About as bad as it is possible for an offense to be. However, it is not an issue of the offensive system. By and large, UK has had good-to-very good offenses under Joker/Sanders.

At any rate -- it sounds as if no one really would like the idea of Neal Brown at UK? Strange, I thought that it would really get some interest.

You make a good point that attrition can affect the quality of a class after the fact. I don't really know what the attrition rate for those two classes is when compared to other class years. The rate may have been much higher but I can't think of a reason why that would be. It would seem that every class would have about the same attrition percentage, but an anomaly may have occurred.

I think the real problem is that our coaches have been overselling the quality of their recruits to the fans. Surely they could have seen there were no "playmakers" in those two classes (or did we just lose the playmakers only and keep the duds only?).

It is a proven fact that our recruits are never the quality of most other SEC schools. That is why I keep saying we need a coach that knows how to take average players and get maximum results. Part of that is scheme and part of it is knowing how to get the most from the talent on hand. I have absolutely no confidence in Joker and his assistants being able to implement the scheme or get the max performance, and the product they are putting on the field proves me correct. His offense is dull and predictable and his team is too often disinterested. I don't see any solution except to try a new coach.

kynut

[CBlue]

How many times while Brooks was still HC did Kentucky come out flat at the beginning of the game, have bizarre offensive calls, miss incredible opportunities, show horrible technique, blow clock management or otherwise shoot themselves in the foot? Pretty damn often. Joker had a significant hand in those teams, too.

2008
v Middle TN
v Bama
v SC
v Ark
v UF
v MSU
v Vandy
v UT

2007
V UL
v SC
v MSU
v UGA
v UT

2006
v UL
v C MI
v USC
v MSU
v La Monroe
v UT

2005
v UL
v IU
v UF
v USC
v Old Miss
v Aub
v Vandy
v UGA
v UT

Need more?

[jwb]

It's hard to say. I think Rich Brooks would get a bit more slack because of the last 5 years, but you're right, there would be a number of fans asking "is he too old?"

I think this goes farther than a down year, though. We just don't look like we know what we're doing out there. I think the defense has played admirably at times this year, but over all, we don't look like a well coached team.

I can't argue with this.


I'm not using any numbers and facts, when I say I think he should be sent packing after the ewe tee game, if Mitch can find a suitable replacement before then. Let the next HC decide who, if anyone, from the current assistants he wants to retain. More than facts, and numbers, I'm basing my thinking on what I perceive to be the fact that, going back to the ewe tee game last season until the present with few exceptions, this team has seemed unprepared, unmotivated, undisciplined and generally disinterested. To me, that represents poor coaching. As head man, the buck stops with Joker. I just feel he's in over his head and, if he won't resign, he should be fired.

I get the same feelings watching UK play. It's pretty frustrating. I don't think it's because he isn't capable but there isn't very much consistency with the things you mention from game to game and I think that is what is so frustrating. I do not envy Mitch Barnhart's position right now at all. It would be very hard to bring in a decent up and coming coach if you fire Joker and miss on the big name coaches.


Very good point and I honestly hadn't looked at it that way. Unfortunately, after considering the past several years it almost strengthens the argument to have a change. Since Joker assumed the HC position there has been a quantifiable drop in the teams' success and performance but really I can think of this starting before Joker assumed the helm. How many times while Brooks was still HC did Kentucky come out flat at the beginning of the game, have bizarre offensive calls, miss incredible opportunities, show horrible technique, blow clock management or otherwise shoot themselves in the foot? Pretty damn often. Joker had a significant hand in those teams, too.

I really can't argue some of these things. But that was also during one of the best runs in KY football history. How much of it was because of bad coaching and how much of it was the tall task of getting inferior talent to compete in the toughest conference in college football? I can't answer that but I do know that Brooks had us heading in the right direction with one of the hottest offensive coordinators in the game (no offensive coordinator is immune to bad play calls or bad execution by their players, it happens to the best of em.)

Brooks was everything I wish Joker would except his age and his background. I wish Joker was more animated on the sideline and took more self accountability the way Brooks did.


Compare Petrino's sideline to ours. (Watch for this against LSU.)

The Hawgs are as organized as an German SS exercise. Our sideline looks like a family reunion with everybody meandering around focused on a myriad of different topics.

Arkansas is everything you mentioned and unfortunately far too often UK is everything you mentioned. But Petrino wasn't without risk as well. Arkansas took a chance that Petrino wouldn't jump ship 3 games into the season or for the 1st offer that seems like an upgrade to him. A hire like the Petrino hire is something that I think UK is going to have to do. It appears that we're gonna have to take a chance on someone with a little baggage or an unproven background since the Homegrown, will stay here as long as he can coach doesn't appear to be working out.

[Buck_Naked]

The problem is that barring a miracle, next year's going to be just as rough and it's going to be next to impossible to bring in a coordinator worth his salt for a year. Who wants to be the new deck chair on the sinking ship?

I think it's possible that Tee Martin gets promoted to OC after the search isn't very productive.

First, we could lose to UT by 100 on Saturday and Joker will still be back next season, period.

Second, I hope you're wrong about Martin as OC. Promoting a guy who apparently can't even teach Receivers how to catch a ball to oversee the entire offense doesn't make much sense to me.

[Dwight Schrute]

First, we could lose to UT by 100 on Saturday and Joker will still be back next season, period.

Never argued otherwise.


Second, I hope you're wrong about Martin as OC. Promoting a guy who apparently can't even teach Receivers how to catch a ball to oversee the entire offense doesn't make much sense to me.

I do too - I just don't know who else would be promoted. As I said, it's hard to see a promising offensive coordinator leaving stable employment to come somewhere he might be gone in a year.

[johnkyblue]

Second, I hope you're wrong about Martin as OC. Promoting a guy who apparently can't even teach Receivers how to catch a ball to oversee the entire offense doesn't make much sense to me.Very true, reminds me of of when people were talking about Turner as DC when his unit was awful.

[kynut]

If Joker stays so will Sanders so why discuss a new OC? Like everyone said - you can't get a good OC to come to UK for one year. Sanders is unlikely to leave on his own; he's already been fired from one OC job and Joker is unlikely to find a replacement if he did fire Sanders so he's not going to let Sanders go........or maybe...... Joker might let Sanders go and then use having a new OC as his excuse for failure next year. If anyone bought that excuse he could get another year or two and bank a couple more million. Never inderestimate what a person might do to hang on to a high paying job.

In any case we are going to have a very bad year next year again if Joker stays, no matter who his OC is.

kynut

[Los Gatos]

If Joker stays so will Sanders so why discuss a new OC? Like everyone said - you can't get a good OC to come to UK for one year. Sanders is unlikely to leave on his own; he's already been fired from one OC job and Joker is unlikely to find a replacement if he did fire Sanders so he's not going to let Sanders go........or maybe...... Joker might let Sanders go and then use having a new OC as his excuse for failure next year. If anyone bought that excuse he could get another year or two and bank a couple more million. Never inderestimate what a person might do to hang on to a high paying job.

In any case we are going to have a very bad year next year again if Joker stays, no matter who his OC is.

kynut

Oh, I think Sanders is toast. Got to blame someone for the miserable offensive showing this. How else are you going to try and keep the season ticket holders for next year. You either fire Sanders or Joker. And if you fire Joker, Sanders is gone also.

I agree with your last paragraph, it will be a long year if Joker stays.

[kynut]

Oh, I think Sanders is toast. Got to blame someone for the miserable offensive showing this. How else are you going to try and keep the season ticket holders for next year. You either fire Sanders or Joker. And if you fire Joker, Sanders is gone also.

I agree with your last paragraph, it will be a long year if Joker stays.

Then, if Joker stays and fires Sanders, you are looking at his excuse for next year's debacle. I can hear it now, "It takes a couple of years to get a new offense in place, so everyone needs to be patient. We're working as hard as we can".

kynut

[bret1555]

I have heard a fair amount of chatter from the UK camp that all the Brooks holdovers will be gone next season... Don't know if that is true or just some low-level paranoia...

I also don't think that ANYTHING should stand as an excuse for Joker if there is not marked improvement, next season. Quite frankly, as much as I have defended Joker, I am not sure if he should even get another year. I am generally of the belief that a coach should get 3-4 years to put a stamp on a program - but there is something pretty obviously off with this edition of the Wildcats.

I personally want to see how the UT game goes, and if UK can hang on to a really solid recruiting class before I can make a decision.

From a administrative standpoint, I think a UT win saves his job... A close loss leaves his status in the air... A sorry effort (such as the Vandy game) may lead to his ouster.

I still think Neal Brown, a Ky. native and former UK player, might consider coming to UK. A coordinator's job at an SEC school, within a 35 minute drive of his hometown, especially IF UK would pony up some money for him.

[Los Gatos]

Then, if Joker stays and fires Sanders, you are looking at his excuse for next year's debacle. I can hear it now, "It takes a couple of years to get a new offense in place, so everyone needs to be patient. We're working as hard as we can".

kynut

No, the third envelope say "prepare three envelopes". It's a joke, no pun intended.

[LogyCAT]

I don't see any reason other than a win against UT that Joker should be Kentucky's coach heading into the spring. UT is a cellar dweller in the conference right beside us right now. Because we have lost to them so many years in a row we have built them up to seem like a power they definitely haven't been the past few seasons. When you get past the streak and look at what a win would really mean, we would be beating a team pretty much on par with Ole Miss as far as the rest of the conference is concerned. Of course to Kentucky fans it would mean much more than the Ole Miss win did, but to say playing them close in a losing effort should possibly buy Joker a little more pull in saving his job is pure ignorance IMHO. Losing by a little or having a competitive game against UT should not buy him anything but out of his contract for next year! :icon_evil:

[bret1555]

No, the third envelope say "prepare three envelopes". It's a joke, no pun intended.

I always heard it "write three letters." :laughing:

Regardless, the message is tha same - and I agree.