Watershed Year in Recruiting?

[NC Cat]

Reading the various recruiting boards since last March, anxiety about who we are going to sign seems to be running higher than I ever remember. The combination of a 22-13 record and an uneven recruiting history will do that I guess…at least at UK. And with clippings of the much ballyhooed Dick Cheeks episode finding their way into every recruit's home, recruiting certainly isn't going to get any easier going forward.

As abona fide master of the obvious,this appears to me tobe a watershed recruiting year for Tubby.As I see it, he needs to prove two things to his critics; 1) thathe and his staff can recruit kids to a program that hasn't been in the forefront recently and, 2) that he can recruit kids toplay for him when he'sunder fire froma very vocal part of the school's fan base.Failure to sign a top recruiting class will only serve to heighten the discontent…and heaven help us if a poor fall recruiting class is followed by another sub-par year on the court. If that occurs, a number of UK discussion boards WILL spontaneously combust.

Not sure what the point of this post is. Just thinking out loud, I guess.But from where I sit, thislooksto be the most important recruiting season of Tubby'scareer.Here's hoping it's a great one and we get some early commits to take at least some of the pressure off. If not, it could be a longwinter...

[Will Lavender]

As Matt Jones posted the other day, and I agree with this point, a year ago people were saying, "It's okay that we didn't have a great '06 class. Wait until '07."What are we going to say if we don't get Patterson? "Wait till '08"?

Well now a lot of kids are off the board and we don't have ONE verbal.

That's scary. Damned scary.

It's all about Patrick Patterson at this point. I've said before and I really believe that if we don't get him, Tubby Smith's tenure is over in Lexington. Because essentially what you have, regardless of how this year goes, is a frontline in 2007-08 of Stevenson, Carter, and...?

Even if we take a step forward this year and win a lot of games, we're bound to take a step back next season with a frontline that thin.

[Buddah]

Will Lavender wrote:

It's all about Patrick Patterson at this point. I've said before and I really believe that if we don't get him, Tubby Smith's tenure is over in Lexington.


i agree 110 percent.. it is very scary..... and no excuse for it.. i have ever confidence that we will get patteron or hope i should say... if we don't get him. it shoudl be obivous that kids at least this year, for whatever reason don't want to come to play for this coach and this staff, at which point the writing will be easy to read on the wall.

[audacious1]

Will Lavender wrote: As Matt Jones posted the other day, and I agree with this point, a year ago people were saying, "It's okay that we didn't have a great '06 class. Wait until '07."What are we going to say if we don't get Patterson? "Wait till '08"?

Well now a lot of kids are off the board and we don't have ONE verbal.

That's scary. Damned scary.

It's all about Patrick Patterson at this point. I've said before and I really believe that if we don't get him, Tubby Smith's tenure is over in Lexington. Because essentially what you have, regardless of how this year goes, is a frontline in 2007-08 of Stevenson, Carter, and...?

Even if we take a step forward this year and win a lot of games, we're bound to take a step back next season with a frontline that thin.

I certainly hope we get Patterson, but I don't think it's the End of the World As We Know It, if we don't. There are still lower-rated players that could continue to improve and do just what we need them to do, but it would be a tougher road.

It also should be remembered that we, the extremely involved fans, are generally the first to swoon or cheer. We're not true barometers of the overall fanbase. As much as I follow recruiting (which is more than I've ever done before) it's a daily struggle to not get frustrated, which eventually could lead to fatalist comments like I hear coming from you Will.

Ultimately what matters is how our recruiting class ranks, but how our team performs. It's my opinion that another year like this past year will certainly put Tubby in the hot (molten lava?) seat.

All this to say, thatbelieving that *everything* hinges on getting Patterson is over-the-top, IMO, and probably not helping our chances with the kid.

Go Cats!

[Will Lavender]

Tre Pryor wrote: Will Lavender wrote: As Matt Jones posted the other day, and I agree with this point, a year ago people were saying, "It's okay that we didn't have a great '06 class. Wait until '07."What are we going to say if we don't get Patterson? "Wait till '08"?

Well now a lot of kids are off the board and we don't have ONE verbal.

That's scary. Damned scary.

It's all about Patrick Patterson at this point. I've said before and I really believe that if we don't get him, Tubby Smith's tenure is over in Lexington. Because essentially what you have, regardless of how this year goes, is a frontline in 2007-08 of Stevenson, Carter, and...?

Even if we take a step forward this year and win a lot of games, we're bound to take a step back next season with a frontline that thin.

I certainly hope we get Patterson, but I don't think it's the End of the World As We Know It, if we don't. There are still lower-rated players that could continue to improve and do just what we need them to do, but it would be a tougher road.

It also should be remembered that we, the extremely involved fans, are generally the first to swoon or cheer. We're not true barometers of the overall fanbase. As much as I follow recruiting (which is more than I've ever done before) it's a daily struggle to not get frustrated, which eventually could lead to fatalist comments like I hear coming from you Will.

Ultimately what matters is how our recruiting class ranks, but how our team performs. It's my opinion that another year like this past year will certainly put Tubby in the hot (molten lava?) seat.

All this to say, thatbelieving that *everything* hinges on getting Patterson is over-the-top, IMO, and probably not helping our chances with the kid.

Go Cats!


If this post were made three years ago, then it would have more relevance.

The Hansbrough miss, the Deon Thompson miss, the Brandon Wright miss, the kid who went to Texas miss, the apparent JJ Hickson miss, the probable Anthony Randolph miss -- all signify a dangerous, dangerous trend.

Coaching college basketball is about recruiting. There's really very little else that matters. If you can't get star players, you won't go to a Final Four unless you get extraordinarily lucky. I don't care what kind of bench coach you are.

And if we have to "settle," that would mean we've had to do that 3 of the last 5 years, and 4 of the last 5 years in terms of big men.

That ain't right. Not at UK.

[Buddah]

Will Lavender wrote: Tre Pryor wrote: Will Lavender wrote: As Matt Jones posted the other day, and I agree with this point, a year ago people were saying, "It's okay that we didn't have a great '06 class. Wait until '07."What are we going to say if we don't get Patterson? "Wait till '08"?

Well now a lot of kids are off the board and we don't have ONE verbal.

That's scary. Damned scary.

It's all about Patrick Patterson at this point. I've said before and I really believe that if we don't get him, Tubby Smith's tenure is over in Lexington. Because essentially what you have, regardless of how this year goes, is a frontline in 2007-08 of Stevenson, Carter, and...?

Even if we take a step forward this year and win a lot of games, we're bound to take a step back next season with a frontline that thin.

I certainly hope we get Patterson, but I don't think it's the End of the World As We Know It, if we don't. There are still lower-rated players that could continue to improve and do just what we need them to do, but it would be a tougher road.

It also should be remembered that we, the extremely involved fans, are generally the first to swoon or cheer. We're not true barometers of the overall fanbase. As much as I follow recruiting (which is more than I've ever done before) it's a daily struggle to not get frustrated, which eventually could lead to fatalist comments like I hear coming from you Will.

Ultimately what matters is how our recruiting class ranks, but how our team performs. It's my opinion that another year like this past year will certainly put Tubby in the hot (molten lava?) seat.

All this to say, thatbelieving that *everything* hinges on getting Patterson is over-the-top, IMO, and probably not helping our chances with the kid.

Go Cats!


If this post were made three years ago, then it would have more relevance.

The Hansbrough miss, the Deon Thompson miss, the Brandon Wright miss, the kid who went to Texas miss, the apparent JJ Hickson miss, the probable Anthony Randolph miss -- all signify a dangerous, dangerous trend.

Coaching college basketball is about recruiting. There's really very little else that matters. If you can't get star players, you won't go to a Final Four unless you get extraordinarily lucky. I don't care what kind of bench coach you are.

And if we have to "settle," that would mean we've had to do that 3 of the last 5 years, and 4 of the last 5 years in terms of big men.

That ain't right. Not at UK.



i agree will. good points.. it would be harder to spin a patterson miss and just settle for the lower rated project type players. with the exception of 04 we have been settling more than we should have these last couple years.

[Cincy110]

You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[SCBlu]

Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just Watch!! I'm sick of hearing how it will be Tubby who decides when, and under what circumstances, he leaves UK. He's being paid upwards of $2 Million/yr. That big ticket item comes with some pretty lofty expectations. Simply stated, meet those expectations, or expect the wrath (and intolerable pressure) that UK's fans can bring. We are paying him $2 Million/yr. to attract blue chip players honestly & ethically. If it becomes clear that he can't cut it, UK's fan base will drive him out of Lexington in a skinny minute!

[chworld22]

Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Pat is not really a determining factor but if Tubby doesn't get a good to excellent class this year I think it is easy to say that his seat would start to get extremely Hot. He wouldn't be fired on the spot or anything but the fanbase would for the most part be up in arms I believe. Unless he has a incrediable year this year that would get him some time to iron out his recruiting. But without a good year and a good class I would say that Tubby would have some trouble keeping his job for the duration of his contract.

[matt57]

Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's not the point will and others were trying to make. they were simply saying that if we do miss on patterson, it's gonna be awfully hard for tubby to recover. the list of misses is getting longer each year. sooner or later someone is going to recognize it and either step up and fix it or there will have to be a change. with all the great guards we have it will be impossible to contend for a title with a front line of just carter and stevenson going forward. keep in mind we have one true SF on our roster and he's a senior. that means if we don't sign someone we're back to playing guys out of position. whether it be jasper, meeks, crawford or whomever. it's not a good situation at all.

as a side note, kudos to everyone for not making this about your approval or lack thereof of tubby.

[Stonewall]

SCBlu wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just Watch!! I'm sick of hearing how it will be Tubby who decides when, and under what circumstances, he leaves UK. He's being paid upwards of $2 Million/yr. That big ticket item comes with some pretty lofty expectations. Simply stated, meet those expectations, or expect the wrath (and intolerable pressure) that UK's fans can bring. We are paying him $2 Million/yr. to attract blue chip players honestly & ethically. If it becomes clear that he can't cut it, UK's fan base will drive him out of Lexington in a skinny minute!

No way. It won't happen. Losing Patrick Patterson will not make one bit of difference. Coach Smith answers to the University of Kentucky not me or you. He will leave when he wants to leave. You just watch.

Coach Smith has never been a strong recruiter. Why would you expect him to suddenly become one?

The man signed the best contract in college basketball. He is the darling of the media and national press. They love him. Most of the fans who post on this forum love him. Do you think our president and AD are going to let the fans that don't love him, run him off when he was hand picked for the job? Remember no other candidate was interviewed. We took Tubby away from Georgia. He is not going anywhere until he decides. Why should he?

[SCBlu]

Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You obviously don't give UK's fan (and university contributor) base enough credit. If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!

[Will Lavender]

matt57 wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's not the point will and others were trying to make. they were simply saying that if we do miss on patterson, it's gonna be awfully hard for tubby to recover. the list of misses is getting longer each year. sooner or later someone is going to recognize it and either step up and fix it or there will have to be a change. with all the great guards we have it will be impossible to contend for a title with a front line of just carter and stevenson going forward. keep in mind we have one true SF on our roster and he's a senior. that means if we don't sign someone we're back to playing guys out of position. whether it be jasper, meeks, crawford or whomever. it's not a good situation at all.

as a side note, kudos to everyone for not making this about your approval or lack thereof of tubby.

Exactly right.

It's not about Patterson. It's about all the guys before Patterson who we missed on.

And it's not about recruiting. Recruiting and winning are interconnected things. Can't separate them. If you don't recruit, you don't win.

And if you don't win at UK, you get fired.

(I believe we'll get Patterson, though. Something has to go our way soon. This can't be explained by just saying, "Tubby has always been a poor recruiter." First, that's not true. And second, how is it that a guy is a good recruiter of guards but a poor recruiter of bigs? That doesn't make sense.

The staff's bad luck is about to change, I think. They've been on this kid too long.)

[Stonewall]

SCBlu wrote: Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You obviously don't give UK's fan (and university contributor) base enough credit. If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!

I guess we will just have to sit around and wait to see if you are right. I doubt it.

Kentucky fans have never "fired" a basketball coach in our history. Not one. How are we going to fire a winning coach who has a National Championship? Tubby is winning and Rupp Arena is sold out. All of that would have to change before the administration would run Tubby off. And they would be the factor for his leaving, not fans.

[Will Lavender]

Stonewall wrote: SCBlu wrote: Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You obviously don't give UK's fan (and university contributor) base enough credit. If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!

I guess we will just have to sit around and wait to see if you are right. I doubt it.

Kentucky fans have never "fired" a basketball coach in our history. Not one. How are we going to fire a winning coach who has a National Championship? Tubby is winning and Rupp Arena is sold out. All of that would have to change before the administration would run Tubby off. And they would be the factor for his leaving, not fans.



That's a bit of loaded evidence there, though.

Kentucky fans have never had to "fire" a coach.

Rupp, Hall, Pitino, and Smith have been too good. Sutton had his own demons and didn't need help getting ousted.

There's never been a situation in Lexington in the post-Rupp era where the fans have had to be vocal. And we're still not at that point yet. If the fans rose up and attempted to "fire" a coach who has a nearly 80% winning percentage, they'd be laughed at. And some fans who believe that Tubby should be fired are, rightly, laughed at.

But next year is a critical year, both on and off the court. I think Tubby knows that. I think if we have a season like we had last year and he fails to pull in a top 10 recruiting class, he'll heed the writing that will be writ large on the wall.

[bevcat]

I just told my daughter yesterday that this recruiting year is giving me an ulcer. As more and more recruits sign with others schools, the more that I worry. I, too, believe that this recruitng year hinges on signing Patterson. If we don't sign Patterson, then a dominoe effect could occur to the point where wewon't sign any quality player for '07. Of course, another sub-par recruiting class will result in another horrible season. Will this ever end?

[bigsky]

NC Cat wrote: Reading the various recruiting boards since last March, anxiety about who we are going to sign seems to be running higher than I ever remember. The combination of a 22-13 record and an uneven recruiting history will do that I guess…at least at UK. And with clippings of the much ballyhooed Dick Cheeks episode finding their way into every recruit's home, recruiting certainly isn't going to get any easier going forward.

As abona fide master of the obvious,this appears to me tobe a watershed recruiting year for Tubby.As I see it, he needs to prove two things to his critics; 1) thathe and his staff can recruit kids to a program that hasn't been in the forefront recently and, 2) that he can recruit kids toplay for him when he'sunder fire froma very vocal part of the school's fan base.Failure to sign a top recruiting class will only serve to heighten the discontent…and heaven help us if a poor fall recruiting class is followed by another sub-par year on the court. If that occurs, a number of UK discussion boards WILL spontaneously combust.

Not sure what the point of this post is. Just thinking out loud, I guess.But from where I sit, thislooksto be the most important recruiting season of Tubby'scareer.Here's hoping it's a great one and we get some early commits to take at least some of the pressure off. If not, it could be a longwinter...

I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.

[Will Lavender]

bigsky wrote: NC Cat wrote: Reading the various recruiting boards since last March, anxiety about who we are going to sign seems to be running higher than I ever remember. The combination of a 22-13 record and an uneven recruiting history will do that I guess…at least at UK. And with clippings of the much ballyhooed Dick Cheeks episode finding their way into every recruit's home, recruiting certainly isn't going to get any easier going forward.

As abona fide master of the obvious,this appears to me tobe a watershed recruiting year for Tubby.As I see it, he needs to prove two things to his critics; 1) thathe and his staff can recruit kids to a program that hasn't been in the forefront recently and, 2) that he can recruit kids toplay for him when he'sunder fire froma very vocal part of the school's fan base.Failure to sign a top recruiting class will only serve to heighten the discontent…and heaven help us if a poor fall recruiting class is followed by another sub-par year on the court. If that occurs, a number of UK discussion boards WILL spontaneously combust.

Not sure what the point of this post is. Just thinking out loud, I guess.But from where I sit, thislooksto be the most important recruiting season of Tubby'scareer.Here's hoping it's a great one and we get some early commits to take at least some of the pressure off. If not, it could be a longwinter...

I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.

To be fair, though, isn't it hard to get into the sport when you live so far away?

It seems to me -- and this is just anecdotal -- that the people who run the "it's no fun anymore" line are mostly living out of Kentucky.

It's hard to follow a sport unless you're in the thick of it. Watching all the games. Going to many of the games. Listening to talk radio. Interacting with other Kentucky fans. Etc.

I have a feeling that if I had to move out of state, I wouldn't be able to follow UK sports as passionately and as closely as I do. I'm a firm believer that if you criticize -- sports or politics or whatever -- then you should have very specific reference points. Where are those reference points for someone who just catches a portion of the action? It's like critiquing an audio book you've heard on a garbled AM station.

Sports, regardless of what people say, isn't about winning. It's about experiencing.

[Will Lavender]

I should add.

All that above is just my opinion.

My prose style, I've been told, comes off like I'm talking facts.

I ain't. That's just Phil-o-sophy. :ggrin:

Matter of fact, I'm going to make a sig. My first ever.

[Buddah]

SCBlu wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just Watch!! I'm sick of hearing how it will be Tubby who decides when, and under what circumstances, he leaves UK. He's being paid upwards of $2 Million/yr. That big ticket item comes with some pretty lofty expectations. Simply stated, meet those expectations, or expect the wrath (and intolerable pressure) that UK's fans can bring. We are paying him $2 Million/yr. to attract blue chip players honestly & ethically. If it becomes clear that he can't cut it, UK's fan base will drive him out of Lexington in a skinny minute!

:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:t humbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thu mbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumb up:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup :thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:t humbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

A FRIGGING MEN Scblu!!!! I am SO TIRED of hearing about this and thatand making excuse after excuse. heck we could probably lose out on patterson or whoever else and some would say that is okay. there are other under the radar players. UNDER THE RADAR forKENTUCKY is NOT acceptable.. Either do the JOB OR GET OUT ! how is that ? getting paid 2 million and4 million next seasonfor what ?this is "UK", the most elite program in college basketball!!!!! i am so tired. this isn;t the program that i , my father or my grandfather grew up following. it just isn't and it kills me. settling for players, having players turn their back on us to go TO PREP school.Are you kidding ? PREP SCHOOL. i amnot going to say anymore. iand many many many many many othersare holding back. excuses, free passes, or whatever else is begining to get old. PATRICK PATTERSON needs to be a WILDCAT PERIOD.

people try tolabel fans. WE ALL CARE ABOUT THIS PROGRAM no matter what some may think!probably more than most would ever know.. I for one hate the direction, it seems to be going in. It doesn't make anyone less of a fan wherever they look at it.. I just hate the way my program and team seems to be heading. whatever political or social under pinnings got tubby this job is beside the point, regardless, he needs to do the job he is being paid to do. i am watching my program run into the ground and it seems people are getting pass after pass for what ? WE HAVE TO GET Patterson, if we don't.. then tubby can not leave this city or state fast enough as far as i am concerned. he whiffs on patterson than no 400 ranked player will erase that as far as i am concerned... the perception is what is killing us and that will only countinue right or wrong until tubby can go head to head a gainst the other elite programs and get a player.. PATTERSON has to be that player. i am done venting... it just breaks my heart... we need to get back to w here we belong.

[Cincy110]

If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!
Ask your BuddyMr.Cheeks how this plan turned out for him and his friends. Man, people really lined up to ride on that guys wagon didn't they????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Stonewall]

Will Lavender wrote: To bo be fair, though, isn't it hard to get into the sport when you live so far away?

It seems to me -- and this is just anecdotal -- that the people who run the "it's no fun anymore" line are mostly living out of Kentucky.

It's hard to follow a sport unless you're in the thick of it. Watching all the games. Going to many of the games. Listening to talk radio. Interacting with other Kentucky fans. Etc.

I have a feeling that if I had to move out of state, I wouldn't be able to follow UK sports as passionately and as closely as I do. I'm a firm believer that if you criticize -- sports or politics or whatever -- then you should have very specific reference points. Where are those reference points for someone who just catches a portion of the action? It's like critiquing an audio book you've heard on a garbled AM station.

Sports, regardless of what people say, isn't about winning. It's about experiencing.

Will, I don't know about that. Look at this message board. Some of the most passionate fans live out of state. When you love UK you make it a point to keep up with what is going on.

Kentucky is unique because it has such a broad appeal among fans. Don't under estimate the UK fan base. I have traveled extensively and UK fans show their colors. No matter where you are chances are you will find a UK fan.

Now that may be slipping because of the current state of affairs but it has been our history for the past 50 years. UK fans living out of state kept up with the team before televised games. They made it a point. It is even easier today. Most games are on TV, you can listen to talk radio on the internet and we have instant news via message boards and Wildcat sites. It is pretty easy to follow UK or any major school today.

Having said that, Bigsky makes a very good point and he is an example of the slippage we are experiencing with Coach Smith. Unless some enthusiasm is put back into our program my grandchildren will not experience the thrills I have experienced following the Cats. The "buzz" is being killed.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: bigsky wrote: NC Cat wrote: Reading the various recruiting boards since last March, anxiety about who we are going to sign seems to be running higher than I ever remember. The combination of a 22-13 record and an uneven recruiting history will do that I guess…at least at UK. And with clippings of the much ballyhooed Dick Cheeks episode finding their way into every recruit's home, recruiting certainly isn't going to get any easier going forward.

As abona fide master of the obvious,this appears to me tobe a watershed recruiting year for Tubby.As I see it, he needs to prove two things to his critics; 1) thathe and his staff can recruit kids to a program that hasn't been in the forefront recently and, 2) that he can recruit kids toplay for him when he'sunder fire froma very vocal part of the school's fan base.Failure to sign a top recruiting class will only serve to heighten the discontent…and heaven help us if a poor fall recruiting class is followed by another sub-par year on the court. If that occurs, a number of UK discussion boards WILL spontaneously combust.

Not sure what the point of this post is. Just thinking out loud, I guess.But from where I sit, thislooksto be the most important recruiting season of Tubby'scareer.Here's hoping it's a great one and we get some early commits to take at least some of the pressure off. If not, it could be a longwinter...

I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.

To be fair, though, isn't it hard to get into the sport when you live so far away?

It seems to me -- and this is just anecdotal -- that the people who run the "it's no fun anymore" line are mostly living out of Kentucky.

It's hard to follow a sport unless you're in the thick of it. Watching all the games. Going to many of the games. Listening to talk radio. Interacting with other Kentucky fans. Etc.

I have a feeling that if I had to move out of state, I wouldn't be able to follow UK sports as passionately and as closely as I do. I'm a firm believer that if you criticize -- sports or politics or whatever -- then you should have very specific reference points. Where are those reference points for someone who just catches a portion of the action? It's like critiquing an audio book you've heard on a garbled AM station.

Sports, regardless of what people say, isn't about winning. It's about experiencing.

Man, that's a kick in the nads to a lot of fans around the country, not to mention some of the major contributors to this board. Although I have lived out of state since 1988, my roots run deep in Kentucky. Living outside Kentucky hasn't diminished my interest or zeal at all.

I make it to most of Kentucky's home football games each year along with severalaway games at places like Columbia, Athens, etc. The only reason I don't make all of them is I have Navy Reserve one weekend a month.

During basketball season, I always see a couple of home games in Rupp and several away games. The games I don't see in person, I usually watch on TV. Besides, I grew up with some avid UK fans that have never set foot in Rupp Arena. I bet you know some folks like that in Louisville.

To be fair, a lot of people don't enjoy things as much as they used to and it has nothing to with geography. My interest is just as strong, but my expectations are definitely lower. Of course, maybe my opion doesn't matter, given that I live in South Carolina and all.

[Will Lavender]

Buck Naked wrote: Will Lavender wrote: bigsky wrote: NC Cat wrote: Reading the various recruiting boards since last March, anxiety about who we are going to sign seems to be running higher than I ever remember. The combination of a 22-13 record and an uneven recruiting history will do that I guess…at least at UK. And with clippings of the much ballyhooed Dick Cheeks episode finding their way into every recruit's home, recruiting certainly isn't going to get any easier going forward.

As abona fide master of the obvious,this appears to me tobe a watershed recruiting year for Tubby.As I see it, he needs to prove two things to his critics; 1) thathe and his staff can recruit kids to a program that hasn't been in the forefront recently and, 2) that he can recruit kids toplay for him when he'sunder fire froma very vocal part of the school's fan base.Failure to sign a top recruiting class will only serve to heighten the discontent…and heaven help us if a poor fall recruiting class is followed by another sub-par year on the court. If that occurs, a number of UK discussion boards WILL spontaneously combust.

Not sure what the point of this post is. Just thinking out loud, I guess.But from where I sit, thislooksto be the most important recruiting season of Tubby'scareer.Here's hoping it's a great one and we get some early commits to take at least some of the pressure off. If not, it could be a longwinter...

I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.

To be fair, though, isn't it hard to get into the sport when you live so far away?

It seems to me -- and this is just anecdotal -- that the people who run the "it's no fun anymore" line are mostly living out of Kentucky.

It's hard to follow a sport unless you're in the thick of it. Watching all the games. Going to many of the games. Listening to talk radio. Interacting with other Kentucky fans. Etc.

I have a feeling that if I had to move out of state, I wouldn't be able to follow UK sports as passionately and as closely as I do. I'm a firm believer that if you criticize -- sports or politics or whatever -- then you should have very specific reference points. Where are those reference points for someone who just catches a portion of the action? It's like critiquing an audio book you've heard on a garbled AM station.

Sports, regardless of what people say, isn't about winning. It's about experiencing.

Man, that's a kick in the nads to a lot of fans around the country, not to mention some of the major contributors to this board. Although I have lived out of state since 1988, my roots run deep in Kentucky. Living outside Kentucky hasn't diminished my interest or zeal at all.

I make it to most of Kentucky's home football games each year along with severalaway games at places like Columbia, Athens, etc. The only reason I don't make all of them is I have Navy Reserve one weekend a month.

During basketball season, I always see a couple of home games in Rupp and several away games. The games I don't see in person, I usually watch on TV. Besides, I grew up with some avid UK fans that have never set foot in Rupp Arena. I bet you know some folks like that in Louisville.

To be fair, a lot of people don't enjoy things as much as they used to and it has nothing to with geography. My interest is just as strong, but my expectations are definitely lower. Of course, maybe my opion doesn't matter, given that I live in South Carolina and all.




I didn't say a person's opinion didn't matter.

Of course there is a strong fan following outside the state of Kentucky. Always has been.

But I just don't believe that old cliche that sports is "in the blood."

No, check that. I do believe that it's in the blood. But it's different for people who can't follow as closely, regardless of where they live.

An analogy:

Say your father leaves the house when you're young. You still have a relationship with your dad, but it's different. You don't see him every day. He just comes around sometimes. The love and affection is going to wear off over time, but he'll always be your dad.

You're right that some folks in Kentucky don't follow it that closely. And you're right that many folks out of state follow it very closely. I'm sort of making generalizations here. I realize that. But I have talked to some fans -- online and in the real world -- who complain about Tubby or Rich Brooks, but then it comes out that they don't really watch the games, they just go by what they read in the papers.

Of course it's not going to be fun anymore if you don't immerse yourself in it.

[Will Lavender]

Having said all that, I will readily admit that it isn't as fun now as it was ten years ago.

Of course not.

But Pitino's wins were loaded with all kinds of corollary things. It was about his style, yeah, but it was also about probation.

The expectations on Tubby turned everything upside down. Now we scoff at the wins and magnify the losses.

[bigsky]

I never lived in Kentucky much and I followed the cats for almost fifty years and a lot of the time I was most interested it was all WHAS and Cawood from hundreds of miles away.

Cawood's legacy was we electronic fans.

In the late forties and early fifties, how many fans lived nearby and immersed themselves in every game?

I think you stepped on your appendage with that post, which is unusual, Will. Like that last post, you better keep swimmin backward!

[KennesawCat]

Will:

I respectfully disagree with your in state/out of state argument. I have lived outside of Kentucky for over 20 years now, but I still stay as up to date as I did when I was at UK or living in my former home in Paducah. Maybe more.

I watch nearly every game on TV down here in Atlanta. The few that are not on I listed to over the internet. I get my full dose of news from the various on line publications, just as I used to. I also attend at least one game in Lexington every year. Like most out-of-state fans, we also have connections back to people in the state and trade information and opinions with them.

My passions have not waned one bit since I left Kentucky. And I am pretty sure that what I say is true of every displaced fan of UK basketball.

[Will Lavender]

bigsky wrote: I never lived in Kentucky much and I followed the cats for almost fifty years and a lot of the time I was most interested it was all WHAS and Cawood from hundreds of miles away.

Cawood's legacy was we electronic fans.

In the late forties and early fifties, how many fans lived nearby and immersed themselves in every game?

I think you stepped on your appendage with that post, which is unusual, Will. Like that last post, you better keep swimmin backward!

I was under the impression from your original post, bigsky, that you had lived in Kentucky but had moved away some time ago.

My post certainly didn't apply to you.

I'll swim backwards and out... :blush:

(The Cawood point is an interesting one. I think the radio diminishes my point, because it used to be that you didn't even have to live close to follow the Cats. 840 stretched a long way. I know a little about this because when I first started following the Cats -- and I mean following them religiously -- we were on probabation. Cawood was my first memory.)

[Will Lavender]

Actually, now that I think about it, we have quite a few regular posters on WCN who live out of state. They seem to follow "closely" and be "immersed" in it.

Okay, so it was a dumb point. It wasn't my first and it won't be my last.

With that, I think I'll change my sig. It lasted all of nine hours.

[Chunks06]

Stonewall wrote: SCBlu wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just Watch!! I'm sick of hearing how it will be Tubby who decides when, and under what circumstances, he leaves UK. He's being paid upwards of $2 Million/yr. That big ticket item comes with some pretty lofty expectations. Simply stated, meet those expectations, or expect the wrath (and intolerable pressure) that UK's fans can bring. We are paying him $2 Million/yr. to attract blue chip players honestly & ethically. If it becomes clear that he can't cut it, UK's fan base will drive him out of Lexington in a skinny minute!

No way. It won't happen. Losing Patrick Patterson will not make one bit of difference. Coach Smith answers to the University of Kentucky not me or you. He will leave when he wants to leave. You just watch.

Coach Smith has never been a strong recruiter. Why would you expect him to suddenly become one?

The man signed the best contract in college basketball. He is the darling of the media and national press. They love him. Most of the fans who post on this forum love him. Do you think our president and AD are going to let the fans that don't love him, run him off when he was hand picked for the job? Remember no other candidate was interviewed. We took Tubby away from Georgia. He is not going anywhere until he decides. Why should he?

The man is not loved by all fans, I would say half want him out right now. The buyout rumor this year wasnt false, it happened. barnharts comments about him being the CEO of basketball was simply a way to seperate himself from the situation in case it does go bad this year. Fan attendeance is on a downward trend and money talks. Your right, he has never been a strong recruiter but he has also never had this bad a season, along with 2 scholarships unfilled and recruits dissapearing like they are right now. Recruiting wont end him, but it could lead to enough losses that will. I hope he turns it around, but its just not looking that good. That being said, it could all change in a heartbeat. The man could pull in Patterson, Stewart, Lucas and a couple KY kids, have all the juniors return and all of a sudden we have a team full of studs. Thats they this recruiting season is so crucial. Its not even about studs. Its about bodies period. If Morris leaves, we have 1 true Center, 1 tre PF, and 0 true SF's. That aint good.

[Chunks06]

Stonewall wrote: SCBlu wrote: Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You obviously don't give UK's fan (and university contributor) base enough credit. If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!

I guess we will just have to sit around and wait to see if you are right. I doubt it.

Kentucky fans have never "fired" a basketball coach in our history. Not one. How are we going to fire a winning coach who has a National Championship? Tubby is winning and Rupp Arena is sold out. All of that would have to change before the administration would run Tubby off. And they would be the factor for his leaving, not fans.



Attendance is down. Look at the numbers.

[Art Vandelay]

Will Lavender wrote: bigsky wrote: I never lived in Kentucky much and I followed the cats for almost fifty years and a lot of the time I was most interested it was all WHAS and Cawood from hundreds of miles away.

Cawood's legacy was we electronic fans.

In the late forties and early fifties, how many fans lived nearby and immersed themselves in every game?

I think you stepped on your appendage with that post, which is unusual, Will. Like that last post, you better keep swimmin backward!

I was under the impression from your original post, bigsky, that you had lived in Kentucky but had moved away some time ago.

My post certainly didn't apply to you.

I'll swim backwards and out... :blush:

(The Cawood point is an interesting one. I think the radio diminishes my point, because it used to be that you didn't even have to live close to follow the Cats. 840 stretched a long way. I know a little about this because when I first started following the Cats -- and I mean following them religiously -- we were on probabation. Cawood was my first memory.)

Cawood personified Kentucky basketball in so many ways. Like many folks, we always turned down the volume on TV and listened to Cawood.

As for early memories, I still remember as a kid being allowed to sit up to watch the 11:30 replays when Rupp was the coach. I never made it any games in Memorial when Rupp was coach, that was luxury that my family in SE KY couldn't afford. Nevertheless, Kentucky sports, especially basketball, are in my blood. I couldn't let it go if I tried, regardless of where I live.

[PsychoCat]

I'd say these out of state fans look pretty passionate and don't appear to haveany love or affection wearing off ...they seem to beexperiencing what it means to be a UK fan regardless ofwinning. :D

[blueheretic]

There are probably very few Kentucky Basketball fans furtherawayfrom the state than I.

I am always excited about KentuckyBasketball.

BUT...I agree with bigsky here. Tubby has killed my levelof expectations for UK.Ihaven'tfelt that UK was going to make it to the Final Four since 1999 when Tubby blew that 20 point lead to Tom Izzo and the Spartans.Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender. There is always an glaring achilles heel or some sort of "bad luck" factorthat ends the Tubby season.

I expect to put up a decent win-loss ratio mostyears with Tubby with a follow on year that is near disaster.

[Cincy110]

Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender.
BS. You are lying through your teeth with that quote. I don't care if you like or dislike Tubby. That team was the truest definition of a "TEAM" that I have ever seen on a basketball court. They relied on each other, they were the best passing and best defensive team in the country that year, BY FAR. You don't watch a team win 26 games in a row and say "they're not really a contender". That year, Texas, Marquette, Syracuse, and Kansas made the final 4 and I would have taken UK against any of those teams in a best of 7 series and so would of you. Give the man at least an ounce of respect. Come On.

[Will Lavender]

I really think that the 2003 team could beat the 1998 team. I'm serious.

The 2003 team was the best I've seen at Kentucky outside of 1996.

[Buddah]

Cincy110 wrote: Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender.
BS. You are lying through your teeth with that quote. I don't care if you like or dislike Tubby. That team was the truest definition of a "TEAM" that I have ever seen on a basketball court. They relied on each other, they were the best passing and best defensive team in the country that year, BY FAR. You don't watch a team win 26 games in a row and say "they're not really a contender". That year, Texas, Marquette, Syracuse, and Kansas made the final 4 and I would have taken UK against any of those teams in a best of 7 series and so would of you. Give the man at least an ounce of respect. Come On.





I think Dave speaks the truth, since 99, I have never had that feeling that we had a chance... the 03 was a good team and destoryed the weak SEC... but i commented to my father and others that if they met a hot shooting team in the tournment that we would be in trouble.

[Will Lavender]

Buddah wrote: Cincy110 wrote: Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender.
BS. You are lying through your teeth with that quote. I don't care if you like or dislike Tubby. That team was the truest definition of a "TEAM" that I have ever seen on a basketball court. They relied on each other, they were the best passing and best defensive team in the country that year, BY FAR. You don't watch a team win 26 games in a row and say "they're not really a contender". That year, Texas, Marquette, Syracuse, and Kansas made the final 4 and I would have taken UK against any of those teams in a best of 7 series and so would of you. Give the man at least an ounce of respect. Come On.





I think Dave speaks the truth, since 99, I have never had that feeling that we had a chance... the 03 was a good team and destoryed the weak SEC... but i commented to my father and others that if they met a hot shooting team in the tournment that we would be in trouble.


That applies to every Kentucky team I've ever seen.

If you meet a hot shooting team, you could be in trouble.

That axiom pretty much holds true every year.

[Will Lavender]

You know you've got a good team when other coaches are using your game tapes for instruction.

The Sports Illustrated article from that year says that John Calipari was using tapes of our defense in his practices.

That's stout.

I heard Dan Wetzel say on the radio that season that he thought Tubby Smith had become one of the greatest college coaches the game had ever seen. Almost a direct quote.

That team was remarkably good. If you deny that, then it's...

Spin.

[Buddah]

Will Lavender wrote: Buddah wrote: Cincy110 wrote: Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender.
BS. You are lying through your teeth with that quote. I don't care if you like or dislike Tubby. That team was the truest definition of a "TEAM" that I have ever seen on a basketball court. They relied on each other, they were the best passing and best defensive team in the country that year, BY FAR. You don't watch a team win 26 games in a row and say "they're not really a contender". That year, Texas, Marquette, Syracuse, and Kansas made the final 4 and I would have taken UK against any of those teams in a best of 7 series and so would of you. Give the man at least an ounce of respect. Come On.





I think Dave speaks the truth, since 99, I have never had that feeling that we had a chance... the 03 was a good team and destoryed the weak SEC... but i commented to my father and others that if they met a hot shooting team in the tournment that we would be in trouble.


That applies to every Kentucky team I've ever seen.

If you meet a hot shooting team, you could be in trouble.

That axiom pretty much holds true every year.

not quite, if you had an offense that gave you and your players had , the confidence that you were never down.then it didn't matter. i never f elt that we were going to lose in the 90s, cause y ou could break a deficit down in an instant. likewise, tubby's defense sometimes leaves the arc open too much, as we outlined in depth on another thread.... marq, was no different than the myraid of other teams that blitized us and we didn't seem to have the fire power to come back.

[poodoo]

In this week's Cats' Pause, Jeff Drummond quotes Patrick Patterson himself when asked why heis strongly interested in UK: "Basically, it's Tubby Smith and the tradition. Coach Smith is one of the BEST coaches in the nation, and I really like him a lot. He seems like a great guy to play for." I share that because I, like NC Cat, shudder when I think of Patrick and other top recruits' reading Mr. Cheeks' article-- and even some of our own fans' evaluations of, and lack of confidence in, Tubby Smith. :(

In regard to how we lost that huge lead against Michigan State in '99, that didn't make me lose confidence in Tubby Smith, just as it didn't make most knowledgeable basketball people lose confidence in Coach K when he had lost that huge lead to UK the previous season. Tubby had the top overall team in the nation in both 2003 and 2004, according to most pundits. Both of those teams suffered a key injury during the NCAA Tourney, which certainly affected their play, at the very least. Losing faith in a coach because neither team made it to the Final Four and because a team with three new starters, including two freshmen, lost in double overtime in the Elite Eight in 2005makes no sense to me. :(

Yes, there are two most valid criticisms of Tubby Smith. His team underachieved last season, and he has not recently been able to sign a top power forward. Yes, he badly needs Patrick Patterson to commit, partly to get the fan base more behind him, to which NC Cat alluded. Meanwhile some extremists within that same fan base would even prefer we change Patterson's current high regard for Tubby Smith, so that Tubby's chances of remaining the UK head coach would diminish. :(Do I understand such behavior of UK fans like Mr. Cheeks? No way. :(I just hope Patrick Patterson continues to have such high regard for Coach Smith, ignoring Mr. Cheeks'and his friends' evaluation.

I agree with other posters that this UKbasketball program BADLY NEEDS a commitment from Patrick Patterson. I honestly hope Patrick Patterson listens to the right people.

[audacious1]

Will Lavender wrote: matt57 wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's not the point will and others were trying to make. they were simply saying that if we do miss on patterson, it's gonna be awfully hard for tubby to recover. the list of misses is getting longer each year. sooner or later someone is going to recognize it and either step up and fix it or there will have to be a change. with all the great guards we have it will be impossible to contend for a title with a front line of just carter and stevenson going forward. keep in mind we have one true SF on our roster and he's a senior. that means if we don't sign someone we're back to playing guys out of position. whether it be jasper, meeks, crawford or whomever. it's not a good situation at all.

as a side note, kudos to everyone for not making this about your approval or lack thereof of tubby.

Exactly right.

It's not about Patterson. It's about all the guys before Patterson who we missed on.

And it's not about recruiting. Recruiting and winning are interconnected things. Can't separate them. If you don't recruit, you don't win.


I'm a bit confused Will. You wrote the above post after you wrote:

"Coaching college basketball is about recruiting. There's really very little else that matters. If you can't get star players, you won't go to a Final Four unless you get extraordinarily lucky. I don't care what kind of bench coach you are."

Is it about recruiting or isn't it?

[Will Lavender]

Tre Pryor wrote: Will Lavender wrote: matt57 wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's not the point will and others were trying to make. they were simply saying that if we do miss on patterson, it's gonna be awfully hard for tubby to recover. the list of misses is getting longer each year. sooner or later someone is going to recognize it and either step up and fix it or there will have to be a change. with all the great guards we have it will be impossible to contend for a title with a front line of just carter and stevenson going forward. keep in mind we have one true SF on our roster and he's a senior. that means if we don't sign someone we're back to playing guys out of position. whether it be jasper, meeks, crawford or whomever. it's not a good situation at all.

as a side note, kudos to everyone for not making this about your approval or lack thereof of tubby.

Exactly right.

It's not about Patterson. It's about all the guys before Patterson who we missed on.

And it's not about recruiting. Recruiting and winning are interconnected things. Can't separate them. If you don't recruit, you don't win.


I'm a bit confused Will. You wrote the above post after you wrote:

"Coaching college basketball is about recruiting. There's really very little else that matters. If you can't get star players, you won't go to a Final Four unless you get extraordinarily lucky. I don't care what kind of bench coach you are."

Is it about recruiting or isn't it?

That's poorly phrased.

In the bottom post there, I should have written, "Recruiting is just another way to talk about winning." I should strike the sentence reading, "And it's not about recruiting." I just meant the phrase "recruiting" was a misnomer. When we talk recruiting, we're talking all facets of the game.

Am I making a damn lick of sense?:D

[audacious1]

It's tough to keep threads on a single topic since so many issues are inter-related. :)

All I'm saying is that while things are becoming dire for our much needed class of 07 to be great, it's not over yet and all the fatalist comments aren't helping things, IMO. Saying things like, "If Kentucky doesn't get Patterson, then Tubby is gone." is exactly the kind of thing that other programs will use against us in these, The Recruiting Wars.

[kybuc]

Recruiting is no where near the doldrums that some think it is. Actually the Cats have struggled with a Power forward but.........not any other position.

Think back to the 80's and 90's. There wasn't much for message boards or even recruiting websites. We fans knew very little of how good our recruiting classes were or how the entire recruiting class was going.

I'm sure if we took a leap through time we would see alot of the same trials and tribulations that we see today!

I dont remeber Joe B, Eddie Sutton, or even Pitino gloating about #1 recruiting classes because they rarely had them also. What those coaches did was bring in a group of players and taught them the game of basketball and how fun it was to play. Alot of the same things Tubby is doing today and being critizized for it.

Kentucky basetball has been around for a 100 + years. And in that time frame they've only won seven national titles and been to 14 final fours (correct me if I'm wrong) In some of today's fan's eyes that means the Cats had 80 + seasons of losing basketball.

How's that for standards!

[Will Lavender]

kybuc wrote: Recruiting is no where near the doldrums that some think it is. Actually the Cats have struggled with a Power forward but.........not any other position.



Excellent point, and this is why I think it's misguided to say, "Tubby Smith can't recruit."

For the most part, we've been beaten by pretty darn good schools for these big guys. North Carolina has taken three of them, and there's no shame in that because North Carolina, more than anybody else in the country, plays a style that rewards the bigs.

However, I really think we're at a critical time. Regardless of whether the recruiting misses are "whiffs" or just a series of bad breaks, we need Patterson. You can't win the way Kentucky is used to winning without Patteronesque players.

[Chunks06]

Will Lavender wrote: kybuc wrote: Recruiting is no where near the doldrums that some think it is. Actually the Cats have struggled with a Power forward but.........not any other position.



Excellent point, and this is why I think it's misguided to say, "Tubby Smith can't recruit."

For the most part, we've been beaten by pretty darn good schools for these big guys. North Carolina has taken three of them, and there's no shame in that because North Carolina, more than anybody else in the country, plays a style that rewards the bigs.

However, I really think we're at a critical time. Regardless of whether the recruiting misses are "whiffs" or just a series of bad breaks, we need Patterson. You can't win the way Kentucky is used to winning without Patteronesque players.



Good points. We have recruited som great guards and people do forget Perry Stevenson but we have needs this year more than ever. That combined with last years fiasco is why the fans are on edge.

[Buddah]

Will Lavender wrote:
Tre Pryor wrote: Will Lavender wrote: matt57 wrote: Cincy110 wrote: You guys are dreaming if you think Patrick Patterson is the determining factor of whether or not Tubby Smith stays as coach at UK.Â*Â* :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's not the point will and others were trying to make. they were simply saying that if we do miss on patterson, it's gonna be awfully hard for tubby to recover. the list of misses is getting longer each year. sooner or later someone is going to recognize it and either step up and fix it or there will have to be a change. with all the great guards we have it will be impossible to contend for a title with a front line of just carter and stevenson going forward. keep in mind we have one true SF on our roster and he's a senior. that means if we don't sign someone we're back to playing guys out of position. whether it be jasper, meeks, crawford or whomever. it's not a good situation at all.

as a side note, kudos to everyone for not making this about your approval or lack thereof of tubby.

Exactly right.

It's not about Patterson. It's about all the guys before Patterson who we missed on.

And it's not about recruiting. Recruiting and winning are interconnected things. Can't separate them. If you don't recruit, you don't win.


I'm a bit confused Will. You wrote the above post after you wrote:

"Coaching college basketball is about recruiting. There's really very little else that matters. If you can't get star players, you won't go to a Final Four unless you get extraordinarily lucky. I don't care what kind of bench coach you are."

Is it about recruiting or isn't it?



Am I making a damn lick of sense?Â*:D


your friends have long known the answer to that, but we rarely express it, you're special that way. :lol:;):ggrin:

seriously though it helped lighten up the seriousness of the thread... :thumbup we should just all sit back and wait back and see what happens.... i have ever confidence that we will get patterson, if we don't.. then people need to rethink ALOT of things.

[samsdad]

One other thing, Will. I left Kentucky in 1968 at the age of 19 for the military and haven't returned except on vacation. I've never been in Rupp Arena or Memorial Coliseum. I've been a UK basketball fan all of my life.

My children have no connection with Kentucky except through me. One was born in Kansas, and the other in Germany. Both of them are UK basketball fans. Living in the state or "experiencing" the sport has nothing to do with it. JMO.

[NC Cat]

bigsky wrote: I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.

I think (hope?) maybe you're a little premature. I honestly believewe'll have a good team this year...better than most think...and we could have an even better one next year.I look back at the last few years andwe were so tantalizing close so often. As RP would say, was this fools gold?I don't think so. The key seems to be getting kids that buy into Tubby's system, which is lock-down defense first and offense second.In2002-2003 and 2003-04 we went into the tourney as the #1 seed. Guys like Hawkins, Fitch, Bogans,and Hayes, got it and played it like it should be played.Had it not been for tourney injuries to Bogans in 2003 and Hawkins in 2004, we're in the final four both times. I truly believe that. We didn't get there, of course, so people forget how close we were…and how much fun we were to watch.

Hell, maybe I'm just whistling past the graveyard. Maybe I'm getting senile. Maybe the bourbon has destroyed my higher reasoning skills. :PRegardless, I'm not giving up hope. I'll be in Catlanta cheering on the underdog Cats in March, gayturds and tiggers be damned!!!

[Spanish Moss]

bigsky wrote:
I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz, NC. I don't follow recruiting particularly because I don't believe we have a chance with these guys. I'm going to be patient, although certainly it would've been nice to go to some big late March games with my boys before they've left the nest. They often express the same thing to me, that it was funwhen they were little,but it would be a lot more fun now.

Maybe they can wheel me into a game drooling and dribbling into a bag when we decide to start competing again.


This is a very sad post and unfortunately I have heard similar words from other UK fans, including those in my own family.

One of the fondest memories from childhood was the time I spent with my father listening to and attending UK games. We shared so many great victories. For nearly 45 years we broke down every game after the final buzzer sounded. I shared the same experience with my son and daughter when I started a family. Now I wonder if my grandchildren will have the same experiences.

I have no expectations of Tubby anymore; he's killed the buzz.

Bigsky, those are powerful and scary words.

[WildcatGirl]

samsdad wrote: One other thing, Will. I left Kentucky in 1968 at the age of 19 for the military and haven't returned except on vacation. I've never been in Rupp Arena or Memorial Coliseum. I've been a UK basketball fan all of my life.

My children have no connection with Kentucky except through me. One was born in Kansas, and the other in Germany. Both of them are UK basketball fans. Living in the state or "experiencing" the sport has nothing to do with it. JMO.


Got to agree with samsdad...personally this Wildcat fan hasn't EVER lived in KY...I've never lived anywhere other than North Alabama actually.

Yet:
If Ionly get to do one thing on the computer that isn't work related in a day it will be to read up on what's going on here at WCN or some other source for what's going on with the Wildcats.
90% of my casual/weekend type clothes have UK/Kentucy/Wildcats on them somewhere (for instance the jersey I'm currently wearing or the UK tank top I wore yesterday) and 100% of my hats as well
When I worked in a dr's office my scrubs even had UK on them.
When I recently totalled my KY blue car I replaced it with another one and had a UK sticker on the back window even before I had gone to get the license plate and can't wait to make it up to KY in the next few weeks to find the perfect Wildcat tag for the front as well
I have Wildcat Wallpaper on my office desktop (despite the rule against changing settings) and a football poster on my wall


And don't even get me started on my hubby who was raised a Wildcat fan but grew up in Alabama also. (and incidentally introduced me to college sports in general when we met 6 years ago)

[DCWildcat]

This has been one of the best threads I've read in awhile. Beers to everyone around.

This is a big year for recruiting. Despite being loaded with guards (a fact that's often overlooked; next year we will have a NC caliber backcourt), our frontcourt troubles are really stinging.

Patrick Patterson is huge for a number of a reasons. First and foremost, he's a great player. Secondly, he seems to have that great blue collar attitude that Kentucky fans adore. Third, getting him would show that Tubby's staff can beat any competition.

It's not that we haven't done it before: Tubby has recruited the cream of the crop repeatedly. We've landed some of the very best in their classes; Prince, Bogans, Parker, all of '04...the list goes on. It's just that we haven't always gotten what we wanted when we needed it.

This is different. Winning this battle means winning a lengthy recruiting battle with the toughest competition imaginable. Think of all the teams involved: Florida, Dook, UNC, Maryland, West Virginia...the list of teams that have already been quashed is quite good as well: UC, Tenn, UConn.

Never have we faced this degree of competition, for this length of time, for a single recruit.

Winning this battle goes far beyond what we would gain in Patterson's skills.

[BlueHeart]

kybuc wrote: Recruiting is no where near the doldrums that some think it is. Actually the Cats have struggled with a Power forward but.........not any other position.



I disagree. UK has also struggled at the small forward position. Joe Crawford is not a 3. He can not defend the bigger 3s in the SEC. He is a 2 forced to play 3 because of our lack of a big, athletic wing.

[Will Lavender]

BlueHeart wrote: kybuc wrote: Recruiting is no where near the doldrums that some think it is. Actually the Cats have struggled with a Power forward but.........not any other position.



I disagree. UK has also struggled at the small forward position. Joe Crawford is not a 3. He can not defend the bigger 3s in the SEC. He is a 2 forced to play 3 because of our lack of a big, athletic wing.

Yep.

[blueheretic]

Cincy110 wrote: Even when UK was on that win streak and undefeated in the SEC, I felt that UK wasno truecontender.
BS. You are lying through your teeth with that quote. I don't care if you like or dislike Tubby. That team was the truest definition of a "TEAM" that I have ever seen on a basketball court. They relied on each other, they were the best passing and best defensive team in the country that year, BY FAR. You don't watch a team win 26 games in a row and say "they're not really a contender". That year, Texas, Marquette, Syracuse, and Kansas made the final 4 and I would have taken UK against any of those teams in a best of 7 series and so would of you. Give the man at least an ounce of respect. Come On.




UKand Tubby Smith hasbeen an excuse away from the Final Four since 1999.

It will be that way until Tubby Smith makes it not so or leaves.

There is always a missing ingredient. Always something that keeps me from believing that he can take it all the way.

I agree that team was awesome. But they didn't get it done. I didn't feel that they would. I won't feel that way about a Tubby Smith team until Tubby Smith makes me feel that way.And that wasn't a quote. That was my honest opinion. It doesn't matter that you don't like it and it doesn't matter if you feel like acting a jerk in calling me a liar either.

[bigsky]

BH, I've always rejected the idea that Tubby's finest hour, essentially from the second half of a Vanderbilt game to Dwayne Wade, justifies his days here. I seeyou do, too.

It's not just me and my boys, btw; both my mom and dad, from different parts of the country, used to call and discuss the games. When we talk hoopsnow it's mostly about when we will see a change in UK hoops.

I think the point about being an excuse away is on target. The "fall back to spring" strategy has been opportunistic, but because of it's ad hoc nature there have always been holes instead of balanced recruiting. We've also gotten good work from tweeners. But it never has held together as a cohernet whole. Building up through three years of underperforming to bet on one half year of greatness coming together does carry the extra risk of an injury to one of those eggs in the one basket.

I think this year will expose the truth, one way or another, both on the hardwood and the recruiting trail. Will the less talented seniors and underperforming juniors justify Tubby's talent evaluation and recruiting strategy? Will Tubby "the man" and coach reel in parents and their top ranked athletic sons, both?

And will the AD's "Tubby's the CEO" end in Welch, or Lay?

[Will Lavender]

bigsky wrote: BH, I've always rejected the idea that Tubby's finest hour, essentially from the second half of a Vanderbilt game to Dwayne Wade, justifies his days here. I seeyou do, too.

It's not just me and my boys, btw; both my mom and dad, from different parts of the country, used to call and discuss the games. When we talk hoopsnow it's mostly about when we will see a change in UK hoops.

I think the point about being an excuse away is on target. The "fall back to spring" strategy has been opportunistic, but because of it's ad hoc nature there have always been holes instead of balanced recruiting. We've also gotten good work from tweeners. But it never has held together as a cohernet whole. Building up through three years of underperforming to bet on one half year of greatness coming together does carry the extra risk of an injury to one of those eggs in the one basket.

I think this year will expose the truth, one way or another, both on the hardwood and the recruiting trail. Will the less talented seniors and underperforming juniors justify Tubby's talent evaluation and recruiting strategy? Will Tubby "the man" and coach reel in parents and their top ranked athletic sons, both?

And will the AD's "Tubby's the CEO" end in Welch, or Lay?

Absolutely agree with that.

Tubby must get us back to 2003-2005 form. I honestly believe he will resign if we have another season like last year.

[Spanish Moss]

Will Lavender wrote: bigsky wrote: BH, I've always rejected the idea that Tubby's finest hour, essentially from the second half of a Vanderbilt game to Dwayne Wade, justifies his days here. I seeyou do, too.

It's not just me and my boys, btw; both my mom and dad, from different parts of the country, used to call and discuss the games. When we talk hoopsnow it's mostly about when we will see a change in UK hoops.

I think the point about being an excuse away is on target. The "fall back to spring" strategy has been opportunistic, but because of it's ad hoc nature there have always been holes instead of balanced recruiting. We've also gotten good work from tweeners. But it never has held together as a cohernet whole. Building up through three years of underperforming to bet on one half year of greatness coming together does carry the extra risk of an injury to one of those eggs in the one basket.

I think this year will expose the truth, one way or another, both on the hardwood and the recruiting trail. Will the less talented seniors and underperforming juniors justify Tubby's talent evaluation and recruiting strategy? Will Tubby "the man" and coach reel in parents and their top ranked athletic sons, both?

And will the AD's "Tubby's the CEO" end in Welch, or Lay?

Absolutely agree with that.

Tubby must get us back to 2003-2005 form. I honestly believe he will resign if we have another season like last year.

Let's all hope you are correct. Resign that is. If he has another repeat performance. But I can't see the man resigning. I can see him kicking and screaming as he is shown the door but not resign. If he did that he would admit he mishandled things and since when does Tubby admit anything?

I see visions of Arkansas.

[blueheretic]

Will Lavender wrote: bigsky wrote: BH, I've always rejected the idea that Tubby's finest hour, essentially from the second half of a Vanderbilt game to Dwayne Wade, justifies his days here. I seeyou do, too.

It's not just me and my boys, btw; both my mom and dad, from different parts of the country, used to call and discuss the games. When we talk hoopsnow it's mostly about when we will see a change in UK hoops.

I think the point about being an excuse away is on target. The "fall back to spring" strategy has been opportunistic, but because of it's ad hoc nature there have always been holes instead of balanced recruiting. We've also gotten good work from tweeners. But it never has held together as a cohernet whole. Building up through three years of underperforming to bet on one half year of greatness coming together does carry the extra risk of an injury to one of those eggs in the one basket.

I think this year will expose the truth, one way or another, both on the hardwood and the recruiting trail. Will the less talented seniors and underperforming juniors justify Tubby's talent evaluation and recruiting strategy? Will Tubby "the man" and coach reel in parents and their top ranked athletic sons, both?

And will the AD's "Tubby's the CEO" end in Welch, or Lay?

Absolutely agree with that.

Tubby must get us back to 2003-2005 form. I honestly believe he will resign if we have another season like last year.


Will, I disagree. Tubby must put together a complete team. Each year Tubby has a "tweener" or a player who is out of position. Something that the opponent can key in on in the Tournament.

That is Tubby's big weakness. Hehas not put together a complete team. Last years team was supposedly one of the most talented of the Tubby tenure. At least three of his starters were out of position.

Tubby has not shown that he can recruit a team. He can recruit individuals. He can pull late term miracles such as Hawkins. He can pull a diamond from a lump of coal. He can recruit or fall into an occasional elite athlete.

But he has not yet fielded a complete team where all positions were filled.

There is always an SG at SF. Or an SF at PF. Or a PF at Center. Or a SG at PG. Or several players out of position.

That is Tubby in a nutshell. 2--3-2005 form would be more of the same and more of the same result. Great regular season and a loss in the Tournament.

Tubby has not shown that he can put together a championship team. The further he gets from 1998, the more he, himself, lends to the argument that he won with Rick's team. Regardless of whether Rick could have won with it or not.

Tubby hasn't done it.

Can he? Some people swear that he can and will. I hope they are correct. Either that or I hope he moves on soon.

[poodoo]

In2002-2003 and 2003-04 we went into the tourney as the #1 seed. Guys like Hawkins, Fitch, Bogans,and Hayes, got it and played it like it should be played.Had it not been for tourney injuries to Bogans in 2003 and Hawkins in 2004, we're in the final four both times. I truly believe that. We didn't get there, of course, so people forget how close we were…and how much fun we were to watch.QUOTE by NC Cat

__________

Those two years were so much fun for me, too, NC Cat. Also, I understand what you are saying here. You say that you TRULY BELIEVE that we are in the Final Four both of those years if Bogans and Hawkins had not gotten those injuries during theNCAA Tourney. I, too, TRULY BELIEVE that, NC Cat, andit has nothing whatsoever to do with making an excuse for Tubby Smith's not getting to a Final Four. It's just that I TRULY BELIEVE that with all my heart, andthat those injuries occurred still makes mesick for the playerson those teams and the UK basketball program and us fans. :(

Now, back to discussing this year's recruiting! :)

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

SCBlu wrote: Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You obviously don't give UK's fan (and university contributor) base enough credit. If a concensus of Kentucky fans want Tubby out........he goes, simple as that!
This really does make me laugh !! Are youtalking aboutthe same consensus of fans that want better seats at Rupp, an on campus arena, new assistants, and free tickets to games ? Hey maybe if you lay face down on the floor and pound your fists Mitch will feel sorry for you.

[freethrow]

poodoo wrote: In2002-2003 and 2003-04 we went into the tourney as the #1 seed. Guys like Hawkins, Fitch, Bogans,and Hayes, got it and played it like it should be played.Had it not been for tourney injuries to Bogans in 2003 and Hawkins in 2004, we're in the final four both times. I truly believe that. We didn't get there, of course, so people forget how close we were…and how much fun we were to watch.QUOTE by NC Cat

__________

Those two years were so much fun for me, too, NC Cat. Also, I understand what you are saying here. You say that you TRULY BELIEVE that we are in the Final Four both of those years if Bogans and Hawkins had not gotten those injuries during theNCAA Tourney. I, too, TRULY BELIEVE that, NC Cat, andit has nothing whatsoever to do with making an excuse for Tubby Smith's not getting to a Final Four. It's just that I TRULY BELIEVE that with all my heart, andthat those injuries occurred still makes mesick for the playerson those teams and the UK basketball program and us fans. :(

Now, back to discussing this year's recruiting! :)




Those were some good years. We were excited and as much in the hunt for an NC as anyone. We just had a little bad luck.

I admit that I suffer some anxiety over our recruiting but I also admit that winning is more important to me. Though you can't prove it by last season, Tubby can build a winner with players that Coaches like Coach K would fail miserably with. I don't think Patterson is the "end all" if we do not land him but it sure would be nice if we did. If not, another good option will come up.

This upcoming team may shock the world as to how good they are. I am hoping they do, or at least play their hearts out every game. Winning with mostly players that were not 5 star recruits is the most satisfying for me. My all time favorite Cat team was 92. Yes, we had a couple top notch players but mostly we had a team with the biggest heart I can remember a UK team having. I was bursting with pride when that team played. I would love to have another season like that to add to my long list of fond UK memories. :)

[poodoo]

Those were some good years. We were excited and as much in the hunt for an NC as anyone. We just had a little bad luck.

I admit that I suffer some anxiety over our recruiting but I also admit that winning is more important to me. Though you can't prove it by last season, Tubby can build a winner with players that Coaches like Coach K would fail miserably with. I don't think Patterson is the "end all" if we do not land him but it sure would be nice if we did. If not, another good option will come up.

This upcoming team may shock the world as to how good they are. I am hoping they do, or at least play their hearts out every game. Winning with mostly players that were not 5 star recruits is the most satisfying for me. My all time favorite Cat team was 92. Yes, we had a couple top notch players but mostly we had a team with the biggest heart I can remember a UK team having. I was bursting with pride when that team played. I would love to have another season like that to add to my long list of fond UK memories. :)QUOTE by freethrow

________

Excellent post, freethrow. I so agree. Too, I honestly wish more fans would remember how those guys played in 2003 and 2004 and not only remember last season's disappointing performance. :(

Also, like you, I will never forget that '92 season. I don't think I have ever hurt as long after an athletic event as I did after the heartbreaking loss to Duke. Laettner's shot keptsome guys, who indeed had so much heart and thus vastly overachieved, from getting to the Final Four as they so deserved.

Like you, I felt so much pride when those guys played.It may be harder, butsuccesscan definitely happen without those recruits with so many stars, and, yes, it is even more satisfying when it does happen. George Mason fans probably know a little about those feelings. :)

Yes, though, it would still surely be nice for UK to land Patrick Patterson. :)