Is Joker Changing The Offense?

[Levi]

kynut I like the cut of your jib. All I'm saying is the spread brought excitement to Kentucky when Mumme brought it here but Brooks brought even more excitement with the pro-set. He beat #1 LSU with the Pro-set. The same Joker and Sanders offense broke the Steve Spurrier streak, the South Carolina Streak, and the Tennessee streak. ( I admit the TN game our offense was mostly wilcat and neither spread or Pro-set) Now I would not get upset if UK goes to the spread but I do not think it is the pancea people think it is. To me the thing I miss most about the Mumme offense is the air raid sirens.

[kynut]

kynut I like the cut of your jib. All I'm saying is the spread brought excitement to Kentucky when Mumme brought it here but Brooks brought even more excitement with the pro-set. He beat #1 LSU with the Pro-set. The same Joker and Sanders offense broke the Steve Spurrier streak, the South Carolina Streak, and the Tennessee streak. ( I admit the TN game our offense was mostly wilcat and neither spread or Pro-set) Now I would not get upset if UK goes to the spread but I do not think it is the pancea people think it is. To me the thing I miss most about the Mumme offense is the air raid sirens.

Thanks.

Mumme beat Alabama with the Air Raid.......that's a pretty big win too.

I agree that there is no offense that is going to completely offset bad talent. I don't expect the spread to get UK to the point they can beat the very top teams 50% of the time......the talent disparity is simply too great. I do think the spread can really help beat the mid-tier and lower-tier SEC teams more than our fair share though (which is better than we are doing now).

Where the spread can really help is the fact that it forces a defense to defend the entire field. For example let's say you want to run a simple dive play and the opponent has better linemen who can beat our offensive linemen man on man. The line splits in a spread offense actually open running lanes for the back......he has openings before the ball is even snapped. Then we gain a step or two advantage simply because a defender has to move an extra step or two farther to fill a gap......that takes and extra second or two even if he is unblocked. Run support from other defenders also has to travel an extra step or two. Give a running back one full second of extra time to hit a hole and he is going to get yardage. Some would say that the defensive linemen would simply play the gaps and thereby close the holes but that plays right into the offensive linemens hands - Put the defensive linemen in the gaps and you have given the offensive linemen a blocking angle that makes it awfully easy for a lesser player to block a better player. Do this and at the same time force the linebackers to decide whether to play run or pass coverage and you can build an entire offense around a simple dive play.

The simple fact that the spread forces a defender to defend more square footage and take that extra second to do so is an advantage for the offense and serves as a talent equalizer. The defense can make all sorts of adjustments but the one thing they cannot do is shrink the physical size of the playing field. That's exactly why so many teams have gone to some form of spread and that's why UK should follow suit. The flip side of the coin is that with the proliferation of spread offenses UK now finds themselves having to defend the doggone thing.


kynut

[Wildcat97]

^^^^^

Nicely put, Nut!!!

Go CATS!!!

[kynut]

^^^^^

Nicely put, Nut!!!

Go CATS!!!

Thanks 97........but I'm a dummy. I picked up some offensive tips for about four years when I was coaching eigth grade football from the head coach (Mr. Ken Matthews) at Emory & Henry U, a DIV.III school near my home. I was pretty much a complete novice and knew zilch and I still know very little. The first thing Ken taught me was to do everything possible to give offensive blockers an angle - either to the left or right but never straight on if it could be avoided. He also taught me about co-op blocks and fake co-op blocks. But, the best thing he taught me was how to use space and forcing the defense to cover the entire field.

I had been drafted into the coaching job when the regular head coach whom I was assisting moved away just shortly after fall practice started and I was totally at a loss, so I asked Ken for help. I spent three weeks devising an offense with his help as we practiced. Since I had a kid who could really throw the ball and a couple of really good receivers (one ended up at Mississippi State and later was a high school basketball coach) Ken suggested a spread offense. From that spread we ran 6 plays.....three running and three passing. So, how well did that work? In our first game we scored 7 touchdowns on 8 offensive plays.......not series.....PLAYS! Six TD passes and two draw plays.We would have scored 8 for 8 but our running back fell down after a 55 yard run on the opponents 5 yard line.....he was gassed.

No, the offenses never again was able to duplicate that feat because we had lost the element of surprise and our opponents knew what was coming. We did however, go 7-1 on the season. It was funny back then because no one dreamed that eigth grade kids could throw the ball like that. In fact, the plays that the high school coach had given us were what I now call "Joker Plays".......simple and conservative......he never dreamed that eigth graders could run a spread offense (never underestimate what kids can do). My kids favorite pregame ritual to get them charged up was to bite the heads off grasshoppers! Nasty but effective.

If eigth grade kids can run a successful spread one would think thatcollege players would have absolutely no trouble doing it.

kynut

[Levi]

There was discussion of this topic on KSR this morning with Ellery Moore, Anthony White, and a writer from VA I think. I noted Mumme's air raid had #1 HS recruit and #1 draft pick Tim Couch along with UK's best receiver ever in Craig Yeast had no more success than # 15 HS recruit Andre Woodson in the Pro-set and even#31 HS recruit Mike Hartline threw for over 3100 yards in the pro-set. I said that this issue is merely debate fodder but if you give me a defense that can stop the run, execute and perform on 3rd down, an offense that will not turn the ball over and move it adequately you will have a winning record even in the SEC. They all agreed whole heartedly with me.

All of them even Anthony White agreed a strong defense is what wins games.

[johnkyblue]

In the SEC there isn't much to spread out. The defenders on most every team can cover every inch of the field. I'd rather be one of those teams than one that tried to pretend the others couldn't do that.

[kynut]

It was never my intent to minimize defense. Had Hal Mumme played defense he could have been the winningest coach in UK history. In another thread I talked about the 1951 Sugar Bowl where UK beat Oklahoma 13-7. That was UK's greatest game ever and it was won by playing great defense against one of the most powerful offensive teams college football has ever seen. So, when you talk to me about defense you are preaching to the choir. UK beat UT last year by playing defense - surprise, surprise, as Gomer would say.

But, if you do not score the greatest defense ever devised will not win the game. That means football is a sport where both the offense and the defense are vital parts of a winning program. In addition, special teams are just as important as offense and defense.

So, while I like to talk offense because it is the glamorous part of the game, I do recognize that good defense has won as many or more games as good offense.

kynut

[Levi]

Don't look now but Kentucky is starting to stack up some players on the defense. I think Joker is on the right track but all most fans can see is our performance on offense.

Its a pleasure talking with you kynut. My fondest memories are of the Curci teams. That 1951 Championship team I was in my mommy's tummy and all I can remember is being shaken about while she was jumping up and down during the game. :-)

[kynut]

Don't look now but Kentucky is starting to stack up some players on the defense. I think Joker is on the right track but all most fans can see is our performance on offense.

Its a pleasure talking with you kynut. My fondest memories are of the Curci teams. That 1951 Championship team I was in my mommy's tummy and all I can remember is being shaken about while she was jumping up and down during the game. :-)

That explains a lot.


kynut

[Levi]

That explains a lot.


kynut

Thats cold nut!

[blucon]

Levi - You make a good point that any offense will work IF you have good players. The true secret to winning is to have the best players. Ah, but therein lies the problem.....UK almost never has a full roster of good players.....not in my lifetime anyway.It should be obvious to all that for UK to take the quality of players we can put on the field and try to compete head-to-head or man-to-man with almost all of the teams in the SEC is sheer lunacy. For the last 60 odd years it has not worked and it will not work for the next 60 years.

The best players will win 99% of the time if you try to beat them at their own game. That is exactly why so many teams graduated over the years from a straight "T" and the spread (and other offenses) was invented - to try to find a way to be competitive and even win when you are overmatched man for man. And, for a lot of teams, it has worked, as the list you provided proves.I'm sure you will agree that UK has historically been overmatched man for man in the SEC and is still overmatched man for man. Decade after decade we have tried to butt heads with the Alabamas, Tennessees. LSU's, Floridas, and Auburns of this world. We might as well go to Catlettsburg and ram our heads against their concrete flood wall (which has beautiful murals painted on it by the way). P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute". I believe he was thinking of UK football when he made that comment.

So, you are right. UK could win the SEC lots of times if they had the best players (and a coach who could get them lined up). But they don't and they never will. Assuming that you want to be successful on the field, then what is left for you to do? Answer: Two choices: (1) Drop down in class or (2) find a playing system that at least partially equalizes the disparity in talent (and that is exactly what the spread does and that is why so many teams have gone to it). And that, my friend, is also exactly why I advocate for UK going to a spread offense. And, I don't care who is the coach as long as he is intelligent and innovative and plays to win, and doesn't fall into the trap of trying to outmuscle Alabama.

kynut

Edit PS - I don't know about Matt Jones' knowledge of football but I do know that every once in a while even a blind hog can find an acorn. This series of articles just may be Matt's acorn.

When ever I have this kind of problem I just break out my "Double Wing-T " playbook and pow we compete. Think I should send a copy to Sanders? LOL. FIO: Complete Carnegie Mellon University Playbook and Clinic DVD’s with video available for sale. They run a sweet Wing-T "O" and it is the true "Wing-T" with some spread packages out of the scheme.

FIO: For imformation only

[johnkyblue]

When ever I had this kind of problem I just break out my "Double Wing-T " playbook and pow we compete. Think I should send a copy to Sanders? LOL.

Double Wing-T playbook, that's funny. I'm a big fan of an offense that allows for everything. If you wanna run an option play, alright. If you want to run a bubble screen, alright. If you want to throw deep, alright. HB Power FB Lead Dive. Your offense must be able to do everything. If it does something well, then good, do that more often.

[kynut]

Double Wing-T playbook, that's funny. I'm a big fan of an offense that allows for everything. If you wanna run an option play, alright. If you want to run a bubble screen, alright. If you want to throw deep, alright. HB Power FB Lead Dive. Your offense must be able to do everything. If it does something well, then good, do that more often.

And that puts you at a polar opposite to almost every successful college coach who has ever lived who almost to a man say, "It is better to do a few things well than a lot of things poorly". College is not the pros. College coaches only have a limited time with their players. Pro coaches have 365 days a year all day long if they want. College coaches are smart enough to know they must concentrate their practice time; you obviously aren't.

kynut

[kynut]

When ever I have this kind of problem I just break out my "Double Wing-T " playbook and pow we compete. Think I should send a copy to Sanders? LOL. FIO: Complete Carnegie Mellon University Playbook and Clinic DVD’s with video available for sale. They run a sweet Wing-T "O" and it is the true "Wing-T" with some spread packages out of the scheme.

FIO: For imformation only

I love the double wing T.....also the single wing which we ran in high school in the early 1950's.

kynut

[UKhoov]

When ever I have this kind of problem I just break out my "Double Wing-T " playbook and pow we compete. Think I should send a copy to Sanders? LOL. FIO: Complete Carnegie Mellon University Playbook and Clinic DVD’s with video available for sale. They run a sweet Wing-T "O" and it is the true "Wing-T" with some spread packages out of the scheme.

FIO: For imformation only

Where I live here in Indiana, one of the high schools (Center Grove..who beat Morgan Newton his Sr year in the state championship game by the way) brought in a coach from Florida who runs the Wing-T. They actually gave him the ability to install it at the associated middle school, and bantam football level. So essentially by the time these kids get to highschool they have run the Wing-T for about 5 years. Its really kinda smart and crazy.

[kynut]

Where I live here in Indiana, one of the high schools (Center Grove..who beat Morgan Newton his Sr year in the state championship game by the way) brought in a coach from Florida who runs the Wing-T. They actually gave him the ability to install it at the associated middle school, and bantam football level. So essentially by the time these kids get to highschool they have run the Wing-T for about 5 years. Its really kinda smart and crazy.

Likewise, one of the tougher high schools (Narrows VA high school) in my area runs the single wing with great success. Everybody hates playing them.

kynut

[blucon]

I would like to see a thread on what Joker's/Sander's running game philosophy is.? I know UK is a "Pro Style" Offense and they like to grind it out however, are the current RBsss conducent to Isolation and power series? With the "elite" freshmen backs we have coming in does it not seem more practical to get these guys more toss sweeps and sprint draws along with counter trey (miss-direction) type of stuff ? I have been surprised that they do not employ a zone blocking scheme especially with inexperienced linemen. This type of blocking scheme is more double team oriented and does not require overpowering the opponent. I notice there is a lot of cut blocks being attempted!

[bret1555]

I would like to see a thread on what Joker's/Sander's running game philosophy is.? I know UK is a "Pro Style" Offense and they like to grind it out however, are the current RBsss conducent to Isolation and power series? With the "elite" freshmen backs we have coming in does it not seem more practical to get these guys more toss sweeps and sprint draws along with counter trey (miss-direction) type of stuff ? I have been surprised that they do not employ a zone blocking scheme especially with inexperienced linemen. This type of blocking scheme is more double team oriented and does not require overpowering the opponent. I notice there is a lot of cut blocks being attempted!

UK does emply a lot of zone blocking schemes. Very few teams at the top levels still run "man" or "hole" blocking schemes. In fact, fewer and fewer high schools are doing them. Defensive fronts & linebackers are becoming too athletic, and defensive schemes too complex to simply pick a man or a hole. That said, all teams still have basic straight-ahead plays - but they are going to account for a very small percentage of run plays at the college level.

I have not seen very much Iso at Kentucky since the mid 90s. We still run a lot of off-tackle stuff, but it is really an outside zone more than it is a power package. Toss sweeps are rare because it is difficult to get the edge against defenses nowadays (especially in the SEC). LSU runs a lot of that downhill, off-tackle toss package.

[blucon]

UK does emply a lot of zone blocking schemes. Very few teams at the top levels still run "man" or "hole" blocking schemes. In fact, fewer and fewer high schools are doing them. Defensive fronts & linebackers are becoming too athletic, and defensive schemes too complex to simply pick a man or a hole. That said, all teams still have basic straight-ahead plays - but they are going to account for a very small percentage of run plays at the college level.

I have not seen very much Iso at Kentucky since the mid 90s. We still run a lot of off-tackle stuff, but it is really an outside zone more than it is a power package. Toss sweeps are rare because it is difficult to get the edge against defenses nowadays (especially in the SEC). LSU runs a lot of that downhill, off-tackle toss package.

I guess Randy's scheme has deVOLved? LOL.

[KCKUKFan]

"We're going to open it up this year." - Tubby Smith

We don't have enough big playmakers to open it up.