So You Want to Support the Players?

[kynut]

I agree. It's is like the code of conduct doctors are suppose to follow, 'First--- do no harm'

I get what you guys are saying but I disagree. I look at it like this: If criticizing a bad coach results in a change to a good coach then you have helped everyone on the team except the seniors who will not be around to reap the benefits of better coaching. The freshmen, sophs, and juniors will be back when the better coach is in place, so in the long run they benefit even if they did not benefit in the short run, which is a dubious argument to begin with.

Following your system a bad coach would never be criticized or changed because it might have a short term effect on the team - that makes no sense to me. Is that what you are suggesting? Anyway, I'm betting the entire team would welcome a top coach with open arms.

kynut

[gerntz]

I get what you guys are saying but I disagree. I look at it like this: If criticizing a bad coach results in a change to a good coach then you have helped everyone on the team except the seniors who will not be around to reap the benefits of better coaching. The freshmen, sophs, and juniors will be back when the better coach is in place, so in the long run they benefit even if they did not benefit in the short run, which is a dubious argument to begin with.

Following your system a bad coach would never be criticized or changed because it might have a short term effect on the team - that makes no sense to me. Is that what you are suggesting? Anyway, I'm betting the entire team would welcome a top coach with open arms.

kynut

I seriously doubt the players Joker has signed did so b/c they think he is a bad coach & has a bad system. You think they think they're stupid (And that's what they'd have to think.)? If you think about it, frankly it's rather absurd. And please provide any evidence the players do think that.

[Levi]

Nick Saban went 6-5-1, 6-6, and 7-5 at Michigan State what does that make him?
Frank Beamer went 2-9, 3-8, 6-4-1, 6-5, 5-6, and 2-8-1 his first six years at VT.
Howard Schnellenberger went 2-9, 3-8, 3-7-1 at UL.
Mack Brown went 1-10,4-7, 6-6, 1-10, 1-10, and 6-4-1 his first six years.

Are all these coaches no good? It takes time.

[Matt Dillon]

Nick Saban went 6-5-1, 6-6, and 7-5 at Michigan State what does that make him?
Frank Beamer went 2-9, 3-8, 6-4-1, 6-5, 5-6, and 2-8-1 his first six years at VT.
Howard Schnellenberger went 2-9, 3-8, 3-7-1 at UL.
Mack Brown went 1-10,4-7, 6-6, 1-10, 1-10, and 6-4-1 his first six years.

Are all these coaches no good? It takes time.

If you think they're going to give Joker five or six years of winning two or three games a year, you need a reality check. In my opinion, this is make or break time for Joker. We can all push our points of view, but in three or four months the truth will be known.

[kynut]

If you think they're going to give Joker five or six years of winning two or three games a year, you need a reality check. In my opinion, this is make or break time for Joker. We can all push our points of view, but in three or four months the truth will be known.

You are right Matt. In a few months we will know for sure, so what I am going to do is back off Joker a little for now.....not all the way....but some........in respect to the players and the fact that the season is fast approaching and I'd really like to look forward to it instead of dreading it and I'm tired of arguing about it with a couple of hard-heads. I believe Joker has been given a fair chance because of his time in the program and the whole coach-in-waiting thing (which was a dumbass idea and a failure). I don't see any chance he will ever be better than a one or-two star coach and that is not what many fans want to see continue at UK. But.....being the nice guy I am , I'm going to go one more mile, but the first time his team looks like it did last year I'm coming back louder than ever. I expect that to be opening day, but I hope I'm wrong.

kynut

kynut
,

[johnkyblue]

If you think they're going to give Joker five or six years of winning two or three games a year, you need a reality check. In my opinion, this is make or break time for Joker. We can all push our points of view, but in three or four months the truth will be known.

But too many people act like this has already happened. Let's play!

[Levi]

Now why are my words and thoughts being twisted beyond recognition? Joker has won more than two games each year so how does one mis-construe what I posted as an example of good coaches, very good coaches needing time to succeed? Can anybody point to where I said Joker should be retained after any number of 2-win seasons. To take my words and to twist them into something unrecognizable is a negative psyche at work distorting my words and thoughts beyond anything I said or implied. I do not mean to offend but mis-representing what I think without regard for accuracy is just not right and I will point it out.

[Matt Dillon]

Now why are my words and thoughts being twisted beyond recognition? Joker has won more than two games each year so how does one mis-construe what I posted as an example of good coaches, very good coaches needing time to succeed? Can anybody point to where I said Joker should be retained after any number of 2-win seasons. To take my words and to twist them into something unrecognizable is a negative psyche at work distorting my words and thoughts beyond anything I said or implied. I do not mean to offend but mis-representing what I think without regard for accuracy is just not right and I will point it out.

I didn't twist or distort anything, in my opinion. I referenced three of the four coaches you used as examples. It's as simple as that.

[kynut]

I didn't twist or distort anything, in my opinion. I referenced three of the four coaches you used as examples. It's as simple as that.

I agree with you. He clearly used three coaches as examples with 1, 2, or 3 win seasons and the inference was that they were given extra years even with those records and Joker should be given the same.....even if his record was as bad as theirs....... because it takes time to build a team. Your reply clearly stated that if Joker should have such seasons (1, 2, or 3 wins) as that he would not be kept on. At no time did you say or even insinuate that Joker has had a one, two, or three win season. If there was any twisting done it was not by you, but this is just another example of what anyone who is critical of Mr. Phillips gets from those who obviously just adore him no matter what. Perhaps he might want to rephrase his post to make his meaning more clear rather than insult someone whose meaning was perfectly clear based upon the post it was a reply to and the examples cited therein.

kynut

[Levi]

I didn't twist or distort anything, in my opinion. I referenced three of the four coaches you used as examples. It's as simple as that.

Yes you did and these are your words, "If you think they're going to give Joker five or six years of winning two or three games a year, you need a reality check."

I never said anything remotely similar to that, that has not happened, and I'll correct you for trying to imply that was my meaning. You may have inferred that when you read my post but if you did--- you inferred wrong, that is exactly what a negative mindset produces. It was not anything similar to what I was saying and furthermore JKB is right that some people are acting like it has happened when it hasn't. You cannot say I said any such thing or you would cut and paste it. I was making the point that some of the most successful coaches did not start out as strong as Joker already has. Reality check.

[Matt Dillon]

Yes you did and these are your words, "If you think they're going to give Joker five or six years of winning two or three games a year, you need a reality check."

I never said anything remotely similar to that, that has not happened, and I'll correct you for trying to imply that was my meaning. You may have inferred that when you read my post but if you did--- you inferred wrong, that is exactly what a negative mindset produces. It was not anything similar to what I was saying and furthermore JKB is right that some people are acting like it has happened when it hasn't. You cannot say I said any such thing or you would cut and paste it. I was making the point that some of the most successful coaches did not start out as strong as Joker already has. Reality check.

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you are comfortable with Joker's performance so far, and if he has another sub .500 season, you would be in favor of bringing him back in 2013? Is this correct?

[hoboat33]

I'm not sure about Levi but my expectations for this season are lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut. If Joker were to finish 5-6 (sub .500) I'm about to consider that an incredible season. Seriously though, I'm going into this season not thinking so much about the win-loss record but rather whether I'm seeing prepared players hitting the field. With our prospects for victories so minimal I'm going to keep an eye on whether this team looks ready to play, has an aggressive game plan, can make adjustments during the game (not just at halftime), can manage the clock and overall approaches and executes to the level of an SEC team. If the coaching staff can't put our players in the best position to be competitive we're not doing the players any favor, regardless of how great the story would be for Joker to be successful.

[kynut]

The records of three of the coaches referenced in the list of slow-starting coaches were listed as follows:


2-9
3-8
2-8-1
2-9
3-8
3-7-1
1-10
1-10
1-10

Joker cannot survive any of the above seasons.

All of the referenced coaches came into much worse situations than Joker. Joker was handed a program on the uptick; the winning foundation was laid by Rich Brooks. None of the coaches referenced had been in the programs they took over; Joker has been at UK since Shep was a pup. None of the referenced coaches were coaches-in-waiting and had absolutely no input in the recruiting of the players they inherited. The intended comparison is apples to kumquats and has no basis in reality.

I now understand the intent of the original post to be an attempt to point out that some successful coaches got off to a bad start......worse than Joker's start (which wasn't clear to me in the original post). That is true, but, for the reasons stated above, it is not a valid argument anyway.

The simple fact of the matter is Joker took over a winning program and turned it into a losing program. All the indignant arguments in the world will not change that fact.....not one wit!

Whether Joker can bounce back or not has not conclusively been determined in the minds of some fans - I get that. Taking any position on that prospect is sheer conjecture, but the opinions that he will not prove successful are probably more valid right now than those that he will succeed based on the evidence as it exists today......to wit: the program is now worse off than the day he took over in the W-L column and competitiveness on the field has declined over the last two years. Make all the excuses you want but there is no denying those two facts.

Since there is no way to successfully argue that the program has improved under Joker's coaching, and no proof exists that it ever will, we are now reduced to hearing heated semantic arguments. Ridiculous!

kynut

[Levi]

I don't agree kynut Joker does not win games by himself nor does he lose games by himself. By all accounts he is raising the level of players that are coming here and performance on the field will lag recruiting by a couple of years. You are being unfair to Joker in my opinion. Now if Kentucky does not show improvement this year then there will be some indication that the talent level is not getting better. You are getting old and want to see improvement now, well I'm right there with you but hiring and firing in two year cycles won't help.

[Levi]

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you are comfortable with Joker's performance so far, and if he has another sub .500 season, you would be in favor of bringing him back in 2013? Is this correct?

No you do not understand me correctly. I will say this one more time ---a coach need enough time to perform and two years is not enough for a football coach. Just because I do not spout negativity does not mean I'm happy with our W/L record the last two years.

[Matt Dillon]

No you do not understand me correctly. I will say this one more time ---a coach need enough time to perform and two years is not enough for a football coach. Just because I do not spout negativity does not mean I'm happy with our W/L record the last two years.

This coming season will be Joker's third as HC. No one I know is calling for him to be fired before this season begins. Also, all the years he's been in the program, the head coach in waiting thing and his inheriting a program on the uptick means less of a "honeymoon" period in my book. Evidently, I'm kind of slow. Why don't you spell out in easy to understand terms what you define as progress, and if you see said progress this season how long of a contract extension would you like to see Joker given? You do realize if he's brought back next season, he'll have to have a contract extension because of recruiting, right?

[kynut]

I don't agree kynut Joker does not win games by himself nor does he lose games by himself. By all accounts he is raising the level of players that are coming here and performance on the field will lag recruiting by a couple of years. You are being unfair to Joker in my opinion. Now if Kentucky does not show improvement this year then there will be some indication that the talent level is not getting better. You are getting old and want to see improvement now, well I'm right there with you but hiring and firing in two year cycles won't help.

Thank you Levi for a reasonable post. It makes your position clear and understandable to me. Our disagreement over Joker is simply a matter of perception and opinion. My opinion is he must have a respectable season or he should be fired immediately thereafter.....he's had all the time he should need (for all the reasons that have been stated a million times). As to recruiting, Joker's classes still rank last or next-to-last in the SEC. How are we going to improve with those classes? I've heard that story about great players coming in all my life. It's a lie 99% of the time. The only way UK is going to get the recruits they need to compete in the SEC is to have a coach with the name and rep to draw those recruits and Joker Phillips is not that name.

My being old doesn't have anything to do with my impatience......it is the 60 years of crappy coaches and crappy performance that makes me impatient......60 frickin years! I've earned my impatience and I'm damned proud of it. I have to admit I have little patience also with those who keep falling for the same old crap dished out decade after decade and see them, at best, as slow learners if not downright foolish. Sooner or later one would think that everyone would realize that UK is not going to upgrade the program unless and until the fans stop falling for their propaganda and force change by hitting them where it hurts.....in the pocketbook.

kynut

[gerntz]

I don't agree kynut Joker does not win games by himself nor does he lose games by himself. By all accounts he is raising the level of players that are coming here and performance on the field will lag recruiting by a couple of years. You are being unfair to Joker in my opinion. Now if Kentucky does not show improvement this year then there will be some indication that the talent level is not getting better. You are getting old and want to see improvement now, well I'm right there with you but hiring and firing in two year cycles won't help.

That it may be a couple of years for Joker's improved talent to show fully, he's in his 3yr year of forming the roster & players such that the team overwhelmingly has his imprint on it. If he didn't think he had enough talent at some spots in the upper classes he could have brought in more JUCOs to plug some holes. Good coaches should be able to make lemonade from lemons to some degree. Net, it's time for HIS UK team to show noticeable steps forward. I don't think that's the least bit unfair.

[kynut]

That it may be a couple of years for Joker's improved talent to show fully, he's in his 3yr year of forming the roster & players such that the team overwhelmingly has his imprint on it. If he didn't think he had enough talent at some spots in the upper classes he could have brought in more JUCOs to plug some holes. Good coaches should be able to make lemonade from lemons to some degree. Net, it's time for HIS UK team to show noticeable steps forward. I don't think that's the least bit unfair.

For once, you and I agree on something.....It's time for JP to get it right or get out.

Where we differ is whether or not the recruiting classes are any better. No doubt we are getting better athletes because all athletes today are better than they were just five or ten years ago. But, the problem is, in relation to the other SEC teams we are not gaining any ground.......we are still last in recruiting in the judgement of every single entity that rates such things. So, someone needs to explain to me how Joker is going to take the weakest athletes in the conference and move up the SEC ladder, especially when he keeps trying to beat them at their own game.

Rumors are that Joker is making some major changes in the offensive scheme. If he truly is it may be possible to offset some of the talent differential as so many schools are now doing. Personally I doubt that Joker will do that or even has the ability to do that but there is no real way to know until it is tried or not tried.

kynut

[Buck_Naked]

I seriously doubt the players Joker has signed did so b/c they think he is a bad coach & has a bad system...

Of course not. However, the players Joker has signed did so (at least in part) because few of them had offers from the Alabamas, the LSU's, the USC's, the Oklahomas, the Michigan's and the Ohio States of the college football world.

There will always be a lack of parity in college football due to the lack of parity in tradition and history. I certainly can't blame or frown on a kid who would rather play for a program that has won 34 games over the past 3 years as opposed to one that has only 16 or 17 wins in that same period.